Oh, so now we have it, lilminkey. You were wearing that t-shirt. No wonder you received cold stares. What were you thinking???? Of course your shirt was going to invite comments. (Once, in Florence, I wore my ex-husband's PENN STATE t-shirt. I received about 5 comments on it--nothing negative--but it seems there were quite a few Penn State grads or students in Florence whilst I was there. I got, "Hey, did you go to Penn State? My son goes there." That sort of thing. Certain t-shirts are going to invite comments.)

The reason I bring this up is that I am always amazed on how others perceive what country a traveler is from. For example, I am British, but have lived in the US. Most people think I am everything from Scot to German to South African. And this is AFTER they hear me speak English. Honestly, I have lived in big cities all of my life (London, Boston, San Francisco, New York, and Philly). I just can't understand why anyone in a big city would care where you come from. I certainly don't walk down the street in Philly and say, "OMG, there are French tourists sitting on a bench in Rittenhouse Square." I'm too busy worrying about my own problems.

as you walk through a large city, there is always going to be someone with a problem about something. This is why i think it is good idea to avoid wearing clothing with messages. this is nothing to do with trying not to look american or whatever. i would not wear an england football shirt whilst on holiday. i think you are first considered a symbol of something when you wear a shirt like this. if they only learn you are american (or whatever) while speaking to you, at least then they have seen you as a person first and not just a symbol for something they have a problem with.

secondly, i think your expectations were too high. perhaps you expected a warmer reception and some sort of connection due to the fact that you are an italian american. i think this is a common disappointment among people who go back to their roots. i know that you had some specific problems with comments and such but i suspect that you were more disappointed by a general lack of a warm reception. from my observations, "natives" are generally not particularly excited when their brethren return to see their roots.

in many countries there are tour guides and such that feed on this "return to roots" market but their warmth and welcome is not necessarily a reflection of the real people.

Hi lil,

May I suggest that your garb was such as to spark interest among the locals?

Some approved, some didn't.

In Europe, unlike the US, arguing about politics is a common pastime.

I do think that you are taking this too seriously.

((I))

lilminkey was walking round the streets of Italy wearing a foreign flag?

One of the very few things Europeans have in common is we don't make a fetish of flags. People wearing them - whether it's the national flag or a foreign flag - are almost by definition odd. If it's the national flag, they're screaming ultra-nationalists or football fans. So it's a reasonable assumption that any foreigner wearing his flag, outside a football match, is also a screaming ultra-nationalist.

lilminkey wouldn't have seen, had he chosen to look, trucks flying the Italian tricolour, bumper stickers saying "questi colori non corrono", shops displaying, for no apparent purpose, the tricolour in their windows or normal human beings wearing tricolour t-shirts. Flags in Italy are reserved for government offices and occasional celebrations.

lilmonkey chose, for some incomprehensible reason, to present himself to Italians as a nationalist extremist. So it's perfectly predictable that Italians took him as he presented himself.

I'd bet a couple of thousand lira he'd not have attracted a single comment walking round in a well-cut shirt and a pair of Dockers.

This earlier post may help to explain things...


Author: lilminkey
Date: 06/10/2005, 11:24 pm
We are leaving sept 21 and returning October14,I am concerned I am a vet of Vietnam.I was a prisoner of war and this will be a challange there are a lot of things in my life I have a hard time with.

Funnily enough, it's quite the rage amongst italian youths to wear the Union Jack. Must be an outdated 'cool Britannia' thing. But that doesn't mean they'd like it if I wore one. Reminds me of shopping in Paris - a jeans and t-shirts kind of shop had t-shirts bearing the union jack. I was casting my eye over one (just out of curiosity you understand), when the French shop assistant said "why would you want one of those. We wear it because it's cool, but as you're British it's just weird".

The t-shirt, the really skewed English, the encounters that really don't represent the norm.........it's not all adding up.

What nationality are you, anyway, lilminkey? Surely not 1st-generation American - the syntax is just way too odd.

I've encountered people in Europe who wanted to discuss politics, but not usually until way into a conversation that began on another topic. I actually enjoy finding out what the perceptions of our president and politics are among the people of this village or that town - if all my input about politics came from my own American friends and colleagues and the American press, well, I'd feel as though I didn't have the full picture. What, exactly, do you feel you need to "alert" people to - a different point of view? Horrors!

As for the cold stares, well, I haven't had to endure many cold stares when traveling anywhere, but I'm pretty sure if I did it would be because something I was doing or saying or wearing fully merited it.

We did a family trip to France and Italy before the Iraq war going through southern france (from Spain)to Milan and finishing up in Florence. I found the people of France to be much nicer in general than the Italians. We did run into one old gentleman in Venice who came over and talked to us for quite awhile. Many other in Venice were quite rude. I didn't have the same experience in Rome when I went in May 2004. People were nice and very helpful...especially when we got hopelessly lost. On other trips to France I have also found the people to be friendly really going overboard to help us.

What are the 'Sons of Italy' ? Sounds a bit dodgy.

walkinaround -- I like your response.

TuckH -- I hope my paranoia doesn't kick in when I am in Italy.

I found your post both odd and faintly dubious. We returned two weeks ago from 18 days in Italy (Cinque Terre, Sicily and Florence). Not once during that time did we have the least unpleasant experience. The Italians, especially the Sicilians, were warm, welcoming, pleasant, helpful and thoroughly delightful. I heard Bush's name mention not even once! Politics were not mentioned (except by some Texans we encountered in the Piazzale Michaelangelo who told us that Tom Delay had been indicted). I hope you don't let your unusual experience keep you from returning and next time, wear black!

I was in Venice, Florence, and Rome in February, 2003. Before the trip, I tried to learn as much Italian as I could, and I tried to use it as much as I could. I guess because people could see that I was making an effort, they were so kind and understanding and patient, and indulged me, even when their English was much better than my Italian. I must say that it was a very rewarding experience, and I still have very fond memories of Italy, because people were so nice. That trip in dealing with people in general was SOOO different from my trip to Paris - YUK!!
I must say, though, that I always wear casual-dressy clothes, i.e., leather jackets, mock turtle neck knits, dress slacks, etc. I didn't wear anything that had any writing on it, so I didn't get any comments in that regard. But again, for me, Italy was wonderful, and I do plan to return. I personally found the people just so human and down-to-earth, not at all snotty and haughtily pretentious as I unfortunately found in Paris.

I'm not sure if this will shed some light on lilminkey's out of the ordinary experience...

I read an essa/article recently (no idea where) that spoke from the Italian point of view about Italian-American tourists and how they can sometimes offend or amuse Italian locals.

Basically, it said that Italian-American tourists think they speak Italian, having heard it from their immigrant grandparents, but that they are usually speaking regional country dialects that are dying out in Italy today, so they sound odd.

The essay also went on to describe the assumptions made by Italian-Americans that they know what "real" Italian food and culture should be, when in fact what they really know is an Americanized version. i.e "This lasagna isn't like mama used to make!"

The conclusion was that Italian-Americans are seen by some Italians as making a presumptious claim of being "true" Italians, when the people living in Italy consider them Americans.

Perhaps the reactions to the Sons of Italy t-shirt stemmed from this feeling?

(I'm also not trying to criticize Italian Americans in any way. Just reporting what I read!)

Actually I think it does help to dress alittle nicer. You get better service in restaurants and stores.

"The conclusion was that Italian-Americans are seen by some Italians as making a presumptious claim of being "true" Italians, when the people living in Italy consider them Americans."

It's the same in Ireland. There's nothing more annoying that some American saying that he's Irish. Wecall them plastic Paddies.

I was in Italy in 2003 just after the war started and noticed nothing of the sort you described. There were lots of "pace" flags about, but Italians were nothing but polite, fun, and warm towards me. Ditto for Ireland last year and Switzerland this year.

If you've read "Two Women" by Alberto Moravia, there's a bit in it where the occupying Americans use Italian American soldiers to communicate with the (Northern) locals.
The same point is made about the Southern dialects and not being to understand a word they were saying.
I wonder if there is still a lingering resentment especially with older people.

I haven't read all the responses here, but thought I'd throw in my experiences.

In 2004, on our tour through northern Italy, we were treated with the utmost respect. We even had a waiter fall all over himself telling us how much he loved America and that it was his dream to move there. Having said that, we don't speak Italian, and that may have been the difference.

In Paris a few months ago, I started chatting with a storekeeper, an immigrant from Morocco (or maybe Tunisia? I've forgotten), and he tried to engage me in political talk. He was very friendly and seemed genuinely curious about how things were perceived from the other side. Being a Bush supporter, I took no chances and did a graceful dance, as well. :)

In my five recent trips to Europe, I have never personally experienced any blatant anti-Americanism. It could be ignorance on my part, and they could all be laughing behind my back, but I kind of like it that way because I always have a grand time. :D

lilminkey- Maybe no one spoke to me because I wasn't wearing a tshirt with a slogan and a baseball cap?

I am not getting into the politics or attitude you encountered, only curious when someone says they got all kinds of looks and all kinds of people saying whatever to them. That simply has never happened to me anywhere. You have to do SOMEthing to bring so much attention to yourself.

I'm interested by the comments, which I have read on Fodors on other occasions as well, by people who say they won't discuss politics. This is a perplexing attitude to me.

Growing up in my house there were always discussions and arguments, some of which got pretty lively. Dinner parties were full of opinions. In fact, life in general was full of opinions, and it still is. It is hard for me to imagine why one would want to eliminate one of the most interesting topics of conversation as a general rule.

Granted there are places where discussing politics might be a little like cheering for the Red Sox in Yankee Stadium, and I would try to avoid provoking someone who seemed irrational or violent, but I just don't get why people would believe politics in general to be an inappropriate topic of conversation.