Is it just me or ...
 

I keep noticing that many posts (too many posts?) seem to be asking for advice on southern Germany and almost only southern Germany. I've been there and yes, it's beautiful, but why is there no curiosity about the rest of Germany? I have been looking for reasons and wondered if it's historical (American armed forces in the south of Germany, hence Americans know it better), or if there is in your opinions another reason. Really, this post could be about any European country here - travellers seem to single out a fashionable? part of the country and stick to that ... or am I missing something? Your thoughts please!

Lavandula

I think many people are influenced by the likes of Rick Steves also.

It always amazes me that so many people always go to the same parts of a country - Amsterdam, with maybe a couple of side trips to Delft or Den Haag, but never further than that, the Cotswolds, maybe the Lakes. Skye. Southern Germany. Same old bits of Italy and France too.

But then when Europeans visit the States they tend to go to the same old areas every time. I guess it's just human nature - and the guide books ;).

I do not wish the generalize, but I think it's also an age issue.

If you asked the 18-29 crowd, you will probably hear more about spending the nights till 7am at the clubs in Berlin than exploring the Nuremberg Christmas market.

But some people have indeed a tendency to avoid possible "disappointments" by focusing on the "certified must-see" locations. I assume it's either the limited time they can spend in Europe or the expensive travel costs (or a mix of both) that makes them wish to "maximize" their experiences.

People ask about what they have heard about, and unless they have done some extensive research in advance, that's just the handful of usual places.
The general opinion overseas is Germany = Bavaria. (Pet peeve of every non-Bavarian German.)

What worries me more is that few replies go beyond the well beaten paths, apart from a handful of locals who try to point out at least some of the other 100,000 possible destinations which are just as worthwhile as the famous ones.

Yes and no. There have been several threads related to Berlin and Dresden.

But vastly overlooked, IMO, are some other wonderful areas - Bremen, Sylt, the areas around Wernigerode, Detmold, Muensterland, etc. I have to laugh at how Rick Steves dismisses NRW as the "unromantic Rhine."

OTOH, over the years, whenever I tried to discuss the interesting aspects of Brussels beyond the Grand'Place, there were many Fodorites urging people to skip the city and spend all their time with the usual suspects of Bruges, Antwerp and Ghent.

And lavandula, what hetismij posted is very true - Europeans (who have a lot more vacation time than Americans) do exactly the same thing with their trip planning to the U.S.. I've seen few European posts in the U.S. forum asking about the White Mountains or Door County or the Willamette Valley or the Olympic Peninsula or the SC lowcountry etc. It's almost always California, Florida, New York, Las Vegas, the Grand Canyon.

That's ok, I guess. It's fine to suggest alternatives, but in the end people should spend their time and money on where they want to go.

Any Europeans reading this - I can recommend the Willamette Valley and the Olympic Peninsula ;).

Never been to NY city, Las Vegas (NV) or Florida. I have been to Las Vegas (NM).


SC lowcountry is on the list :).

Well, I have yet to see most of the US - visited once on a research trip and saw Minneapolis :) and New Haven. Plenty to look forward to!

Lavandula

Yes, i noticed it too. Most Americans travel, more or less, only between Frankfurt and Munich/Salzburg, with a side trip to the Rhine/Mosel area. It's almost laughable to read "experts" like Rick Steves. His Germany guide has 646 pages. 550 are about the sights. From these 550 pages, 420 are about Bavaria and the Rhine valley. The only sights outside of this region are Dresden, Berlin and, interestingly, Görlitz. And this book is no joke!
Just to give you an idea: Baedeker, Germany's most popular tourist guide, offers 27 books about Germany. 7 of them are about Bavaria+Frankfurt, 11 are about the former Commie part of the country.

I think it comes down to the American armed forces. Americans today travel exactly in the region where these forces are located. If you read old, prewar travel guides a typical American journey was much more varied and usually included all parts of the country. Of course these travellers back then usually were richer and spend more time in just one country, but anyway.

"I think it comes down to the American armed forces. Americans today travel exactly in the region where these forces are located."

That interpretation is a bit simplistic. Of all our friends planning trips to Germany, the location of the armed forces has NOTHING to do with it. In fact, most of them have no idea where exactly the armed forces are located in Germany.

It has a LOT more to with direct flights to Munich and Frankfurt. If there were as many direct flights to Hamburg or Berlin or Bremen, more people would go to those destinations.

The largest American Armed forces centers have been in the Frankfurt and the Heidelberg areas since the 1970s. Bavaria has very little compared to the other areas.

s

"That interpretation is a bit simplistic. Of all our friends planning trips to Germany, the location of the armed forces has NOTHING to do with it. In fact, most of them have no idea where exactly the armed forces are located in Germany."

Of course not. But, since the end of WW2, this area was Little America in Germany. The GIs traveled the region and showed photos back home, the American media concentrated on the area since their guys were stationed there, the Nuremberg trials happened there... so, Bavaria and the Rhein area became bigger and bigger for Americans.
It's interesting to note that many Brits also travel Northern Germany and often spend some days in Hamburg. Northern Germany was the British occupation zone.

Well, I suppose you are the expert on what Americans do and why.

However, in my humble to-be-disregarded American opinion, the availability of direct flights to Munich and Frankfurt and shorter vacation times are bigger factors in why many Americans concentrate on Bavaria and the Rhine than black and white snapshots of where their grandfathers served in WW II.

Hi FoFo,

>the availability of direct flights to Munich and Frankfurt and shorter vacation times are bigger factors.....<

I agree. Don't forget Stuttgart.

BTW, why no mention of Osnabrück or Oldenburg from those so interested in northern Germany?

((I))

I've been to a few places in northern Germany - Hamburg, Bonn, and would never consider going back to northern Germany because of the way I was treated. I would only now consider going to Germany at all because I had a good experience during my recent day in Frankfurt.

I had had a good experience in Bavaria but even so the northern part of the trip was quite distasteful and kept me out of Germany for more than 20 years (except for changing planes in Frankfurt or Munich).

I had no idea that there was a "fashionable" part of Germany so this had no part in my decision to visit or not or what parts to visit.

Often when people ask for information on lesser known parts of a country they get nothing since few people here know about less popular towns. When I recently planned my trip to the Czech Republic I searched here for information but mostly read guide books to determine what towns I wanted to visit. There would have been little point to posting questions about towns that no one has referred to in 10 years. People on this board seem to be concentrating on Prague, Cesky Krumlov and Kutna Hora.

So what you are missing is that this is generally not the place to come for information on lesser known towns, whether in Germany or other countries.

Internet forums have become places for people who never pick up a guide book and read about the country they want to visit. They post a question based on names of towns/cities that are familiar to them. Have you noticed how many posts ask "what is there to do in xyz place?" There's a post in the top 25 asking what to do in Prague in the winter. Of course someone who doesn't have a clue what Prague can offer would never think to ask about some small, off the beaten track, town in Germany. Practically every day there are posts asking what is there to do in Rome, Paris, Venice, etc. If someone has no knowledge of Rome and does not know what to expect of a major European city why would they ever ask: "what is there to do in Stendal, Germany."

If you added Berlin and Dresden to Bavaria, it would be overwhelmingly true. I am not so surprised. Bavaria happens to be the largest state and quite beautiful. Its appeal is easily appreciated, especially the Alps with green pastures leading to picture perfect mountains. If you have just a week or two, it is hard not to enjoy the Alps, the towns, the monasteries and villages of Bavaria.

I was one of those soldiers assigned to German: the Pfalz, Franken and Bremerhaven. I really came to love these areas but more as a temporary resident than as a tourist.

If you had just one or two short trips to Germany in a lifetime, it makes more sense to me to concentrate on the Alps, rather than trying to learn the quiet pleasures of the North Sea, the flavor of towns like Goslar and Würzburg, or the quietness in forests of the Pfalz.

In my case, Great Grandfather came from southern Germany so that was the part that I focused on first. I liked it so much and have not nearly seen all I want to that I went again with my brother, then again by myself, then with wife, and next time with wife and kids. I see some familiar places each time and some new ones.

I guess I'm one of those Americans that love Southern Germany/Bavaria. For me it's because the Alps are awesome, the Black Forest is intriguing and it's closer to Austria/ Switzerland which I like to visit too.

I've been to other parts of Germany too. Maybe I'm generalizing but I feel more welcomed in the South. It's the gemutlichkeit! I don't mean to offend any Northerners. Just seems the North is for young people/the South for older tourists.

While we have spent plenty of time in Southern Germany, we always try to find a few places that most Americans never visit, such as Iphofen, Gengenbach, Bad Wimpfen, Schwaebisch Hall, etc.

We visited Munich and the "Castles" many years ago and have no plans to go back. The biggest city we've been to recently is Bamberg.

But last year, we did venture northward to Hannoversch Muenden, Wernigerode and Quedlinburg. Beautiful! Hope to go back and further explore this area.

I'm afraid I disagree that it is necessarily an "age thing." We will be spending 8 nights in Berlin next year (after having done more than a week in various parts of Bavaria this year) and yes, we go out "clubbing" and we are hardly 30 years old anymore.

I don't think this is a "Germany thing" at all. I know plenty of people here in the US who go to the SAME place year, after year, after year when they travel. They will tell you "it's the best" and have no desire whatsoever to see anything that's new and different.

<< BTW, why no mention of Osnabrück or Oldenburg from those so interested in northern Germany? >>

I once spent an enjoyable hour on a train leaving Osnabrück and then backing back into Osnabrück, leaving Osnabrück and then backing back into Osnabrück, leaving Osnabrück and then backing back into Osnabrück. It was the German equivalent of Groundhog Day!

We're leaving for Southern Germany in less that a month. For us, it started with finding the cheapest flight available to Germany - Munich for us. Then we went from there. Imagining the Alps in snow during Christmastime certainly doesn't hurt either!

It had nothing to do with US military bases or Rick S. recommendations.

Our first trip to Germany was planned around the availability of flights using frequent flyer miles :) We flew in an out of Munich and spent 2 weeks in Bavaria. We loved Bavaria and didn't see nearly as much of it as we'd have liked - so we are going back next summer, adding some time in the Czech Republic as well. Sure we'd like to visit other areas of Germany, and we plan to in the future. We just haven't done it yet. There are so many places we'd like to see in Europe and only so much time - have to make hard choices.

I think people gave brought up good points about the many driving factors in people's vacation choices. Many European travelers short change some really beautiful areas of California so that they can get to Vegas. Vegas? Really? But that is what people want to see. It isn't my cuppa, but it isn't my vacation either.

The first time I went to Germany, we entered thru Duesseldorf and went down the Rhine. We have done Bavaria several times, spent a month driving aroud the north another time. Another time spent a month at Christmas markets (Nuremberg area with a day trip to Bamberg in '89 - an interesting time to be there riding trains.) I am now intrigued with the former east and have gone to various places in Dec. Some of my favorites - Dresden, Annaberg-Buchholz, Coburg and Meiningen. Quedlingburg, also. So much to see, so little time.

You don't hear many questions from some of us because we do lots of research and only post a specific question if we can't find the answer some place else. I do have to say we have some invaluable resources here - Ingo, Quokka, Cowboy 19?, Etchnaton, Logos, etc. Hope I haven't massed anyone. Thanks for all of your help over the years!

I am also someone who has travelled to all of the states except Hawaii. So I just like to be on the road, I guess. CJ

MISSED not massed, sorry, I should proofread. CJ

IMO- it has nothing to do w/ anything unique to Germany.

Look at any forum or country tag.

In California 90% of the questions are about LA/SF/Yosemite/Napa/Monterey. Those represent less than 15% of California.

In Scotland most questions are about Edinburgh/Skye/Inverness

In England -- London/the Cotswolds/Stonehenge/Bath

Oregon: The coast and Portland

As w/ Germany -- Many folks asking for help have mostly only heard of the 'famous' sites/areas and don't get into the less 'popular' regions until maybe a 3rd or 4th trip.

"Many folks asking for help have mostly only heard of the 'famous' sites/areas and don't get into the less 'popular' regions until maybe a 3rd or 4th trip."

And it is only the lucky few who even take that 3rd or 4th trip to a particular destination. I am hoping to become one of those lucky few, but so far the only places I've managed to see more than once or twice are close to home.

'I'm afraid I disagree that it is necessarily an "age thing." "

Maybe for some people it is , but I like to visit places that interest me : big cities with great museums and galleries, nightlife ( concert, the opera, jazz clubs) ,many cafes and restaurants.
Although hardly a youngster, I have no interest in markets of any kind, staying more than a day in small and slippy towns ( no matter how charming), or driving from place to place.

Traveling to Europe ( or anyplace) is not chap and ,for majority, not very frequent.
With that , and one's own interest ,in mind - why experiment.

Thanks for so many responses - I am in a different time zone to many of you (coming from Sydney). so am slow to respond when you all are posting.

"As w/ Germany -- Many folks asking for help have mostly only heard of the 'famous' sites/areas and don't get into the less 'popular' regions until maybe a 3rd or 4th trip."

Well, I guess that's why I was asking - how is it that Bavaria / southern Germany got famous over and above others. It's fascinating to see that this seems to have a number of different reasons!

Lavandula

I "love" posts like this.

Someone posts a theory and then all the experts with an example of a singular exception to the theory jump in to claim it disproven.

People vote with their feet. If Bavaria gets more tourist its because more people choose to go there. It is that simple. There are plenty of theories about why and most of them probably have some merit. To discard one because it does not match your own personal belief is ludicrous.

Here is mine, with emotion and defensiveness taken out of the equation; Southern Germany, Bavaria in particular, is found to be more scenic and interesting, on the whole, by a larger group of people than other identifiable regions in the country.

Please don't shout at me - you're favourite place is really nice, too! That's because it's "yours" and that is all that matters.

An potentially interesting discussion of a topic like this is spoiled when it devolves into subjective defensive comments about ones personal preferences trumping anothersbuffaloroles


Come on folks - are brussel sprouts "good"? I hate em but some people adore them. Who is right? I can "guarantee" you that more people like chocolate than like brussel sprouts. Does that make chocolate better? Objectively, no, of course not. Subjectively, the clear majority of people would say yes.

Oh, please, please, someone tell me that they like brussel sprouts more than they like chocolate - I want to be shown I'm wrong.

Well, I didn't intend for people to say one part is better than another (and they haven't as such) - I just find that there are parts all over Germany which have merit and yet they are little known compared with southern Germany. No-one here talks about the Deutsche Fachwerkstrasse, which is better-known in Germany and which identifies cities with half-timbered houses all over the country.

http://www.deutsche-fachwerkstrasse.de/uk/cont.php3

You suggest people are voting with their feet, I'm just asking why - is it just the mountain scenery? Or is it one of the reasons that someone above puts forward? And this to me is why I'm asking the question. :)

Lavandula

Bavaria, and to be fair, only small slices of Bavaria are also the top holiday destination for German tourists. So you can't say it's only a pattern you find in foreign visitors. And, after all, the places most people visit in Bavaria are not exactly the most ugly.

But most foreigners focus on even smaller slices of Bavaria: King Ludwig castles, Garmisch area, Munich, Berchtesgaden area + Rothenburg ob der Tauber. Add Bamberg and Würzburg for the adventurous traveler. They often spend a great deal of time to do "research" for the best Frankfurt in/Munich out itinerary, only to end up with exactly the same "Top 10" routing as 95% of the rest.
There is nothing wrong with it, and if people like it, it's their time and money and no one should force them to do differentely.
I'd just want to see a *bit* more than what I've seen in every "typical Bavarian" coffee table book when I travel that far. And not just check that Neuschwanstein is really there. (Funny enough, I had the same "looks as big as in the movies" effect at the Grand Canyon.. probably due to visual over-exposure).

So it's not an educated decision of someone in Oklahoma City or Osaka saying "Should I do Neuschwanstein and Mittenwald or the Danube bend and Regensburg?". Most foreign tourists have no clue that the latter two even exist.
It's the same with European tourists in, for example, California. SF, LA, Yosemite, Highway 101 + side trip to Vegas. Period. Few of them would probably say that they skipped Lassen Volcanic NP because they had to interest in that scenery, but rather had to clue that this park exists.

Choosing chocolate over brussels sprouts is an educated decision because you know both. If you have no clue that Passau or St. Augustine exist you cannot make the same decision.

<i>Southern Germany, Bavaria in particular, is found to be more scenic and interesting, on the whole, by a larger group of people than other identifiable regions in the country. </i>

Exactly.

One can easily flip the question a bit and ask: "What compelling reason is there to NOT focus on Bavaria?" Just because a place is popular (or unpopular) doesn't mean there isn't a perfectly valid reason. Some folks enjoy going off the beaten path, and good for them, but the fact that so many people want to go to Bavaria says a great deal about the relative value that plenty of people place on it over other regions. It is up to the individual traveler to determine how similar they are to that typical demographic.

<i>Well, I didn't intend for people to say one part is better than another</i>

Again, how else would you propose to make the determination? It may not be objective, but every person that makes any decision between two products (Munich vs Berlin, for example) is, implicitly, making a determination as to which one is 'better' for them.

<i>Oh, please, please, someone tell me that they like brussel sprouts more than they like chocolate - I want to be shown I'm wrong.</i>

I like brussel sprouts more than chocolate. But I'd be a liar if I claimed that most people share my opinion.

<i>Choosing chocolate over brussels sprouts is an educated decision because you know both. If you have no clue that Passau or St. Augustine exist you cannot make the same decision.</i>

What you are proposing is simply impossible. People don't have the capacity to accumulate (or even process) that amount of information. Just as in every education, one must take shortcuts or rely on others to focus on areas that are important. In the case of choosing where to travel, I struggle to think of a better way to distill information than to look to the collective experience of other travelers. There is a decent amount of wisdom to be gleaned from the mob.

My first trips to Germany were based on the fact that does deal with the Americans having that sector of control after WWII. My father (Army) married a Bavarian woman and my German family lives in the area around Munich. Where I live in Maryland also has a large population of Bavarians and a German club and and 2 excellent Bavarian restaurants . There are many other influences also. How many folks watched the Sound of Music and decided that was where they wanted to visit in Austria? And if there, then go see the Disney castle? Childhood impressions can last a long time. I agree very much there is so much to see and do in the rest of Germany, that it's a shame more tourists don't do it.

Lavandula, I have been to several of the towns on the Deutsche Fachwerk Strasse during our last 3 trips to Germany. I always recommend them highly and have written about them in my trip reports and provided photos.

I really have TRIED to inspire Fodorites to visit some of these off-the-beaten-path, amazingly charming towns such as Hannoversch Muenden or Alsfeld.

On future trips, I will use the website you provided to see even more of these little known gems.

Maybe we should open a thread like "Places Rick Steves doesn't know"...? :D

Someone said "simplistic". Well, I am trying to be not simplistic.

Firstly, lavandula is absolutely right. There are many most beautiful destinations in central, eastern, western and northern Germany which are rarely known among English-speaking tourists (but are frequently visited by tourists from the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Scandinavia and Japan). Just to mention a few: Bremen, Lübeck, Schwerin, Wismar, Aachen, Münster, Monschau, Quedlinburg, Wernigerode...

Someone wrote that northern Germany is not as scenic as Bavaria. This guy has obviously never been to the Sauerland, where you find storybook-villages of half-timbered houses in mountain valleys. Or to the Harz, with picture-perfect villages and a scenic historic train which leads you up to the top of the mountain. Or to Monschau, which is more scenic than Rothenburg-ob-der-Tauber, because it is a historic town with roaring rivers running through. Or the North Sea islands, especially Helgoland, with dramatic red cliffs, or Sylt which recently starred in the film Ghost Writer...

Secondly, why are these gems not known to American tourists and guidebook authors (like Rick S.)?

It must have started with the armed forces. Then, a vicious circle came into effect. Americans traveled to Heidelberg, the Rhine Valley and Bavaria and were fascinated. Then, articles were written about these trips. Then, tourists followed the beaten path. Then, Rick S. and other guidebook authors focused on that region and atracted more tourists etc.

This forum - I have to say that - also works like a vicious circle. One Fodorite travels to a destination and finds a hotel who he/she likes. Say, Hotel Uhland in München. Or the Melia Hotel in Berlin. Then he/she writes a trip report. Threads appear asking for hotel tips. Uhland and Melia are recommended. Other Fodorites stay there and write about it.

Finally, the impression appears as if Hotel Uhland is the best hotel in München and the Melia is the best in Berlin. If we natives recommend other hotels, we are even insulted by tourists who know better.

It is the same with destinations. Everybody likes München, Rothenburg ob der Tauber, Neuschwanstein. Of course, these destinations are nice. However, they are touristy, too. And if we natives recommend other destinations which are even more scenic or more historically significant those who always know better are ready to contradict.

Thirdly, Americans have special expectations about Europe. There had been a thread on the U.S. forum "Which is the most 'European' U.S. city?". And most posts said New Orleans, Savannah, Charleston and Santa Fe. When I posted that I thought that Austin is the most European U.S. city (which makes a lot of sense, since no other U.S. state was so heavily influenced by German immigrants as Texas), everybody was puzzled.

In fact, New Orleans, Savannah, Charleston and Santa Fe have nothing to do with European cities. Practically no European city has a grid pattern like NOLA or Savannah. And Santa Fe is the most American city in the U.S., because it is Native American and nothing else.

The misconception is that many Americans think, European cities are historical. They are NOT. Of course, European cities tend to have more historical remnants than American cities, but most European cities are mainly contemporary. There are a few living museums, like Sarlat, Sevilla, Cesky Krumlov or Rothenburg ob der Tauber. But these towns are historical because they had been neglected and deserted by fleeing populations.

The authentic European cities are vibrant and modern - with several historical buildings mixed in - like Berlin, London, Paris, Madrid or Rome (significantly, a recent American poster dismissed Madrid, one of Europe's most vibrant cities, as "boring").

Finally: I strongly recommend exploring Europe beyond the beaten path. In Germany, as well as in other European countries, you can find a zillion of hidden gems - and most of them are not spoilt by mass tourism. Just read our posts here on this forum.

I believe there are simply popular places that are on more people's radar for whatever reason (natural beauty, history, a good tourist promotion board, general travel fads and trends). I see a lot more posts here asking about Paris France than I do of the entire country of Germany. Why's that?

Echnaton, I understand what you are saying but you also have to realize that information about many off the radar German cities is almost non existent. The internet has helped that somewhat but, in many cases, only if you can read German.

You can't imagine how much trouble I had finding information on cities like Iphofen, Dettelbach or even Bad Wimpfen when we visited 5 yrs ago. And I did ask for help on Fodor's but few if any people had even been to these towns.

Most of the US produced guide books have the same old cities and towns that they all cover but you really have to dig deep to find anything on the smaller "hidden" gems.

The most viewed Germany photo album on Webshots is the one my husband did from our 2005 trip entitled "Small Towns of Germany and Austria." This album has had over 850,000 views. People are hungry for information on these places. It's just not always easy to find.

http://travel.webshots.com/album/354616542PMkPVQ

<i>Finally: I strongly recommend exploring Europe beyond the beaten path. In Germany, as well as in other European countries, you can find a zillion of hidden gems - and most of them are not spoilt by mass tourism. Just read our posts here on this forum.</i>

Again. Why are these places better than Munich? What separates these 'hidden gems' from the found gems? I have to admit at chafing at the smug, 'I know a better place' attitude that leads to every two-bit hamlet being labeled as the next best thing. On the one hand, we have a preponderance of opinion stating that destination xxx is worth your time. On the other, we have one or two people proclaiming that Buffalo is an undiscovered gem. You'll excuse me if I ignore the folks clamoring for Buffalo.

I grew up in a tiny, perhaps even quaint town in Vermont. It is pretty much the 436,328th place I would recommend a foreigner visit. Yes, I know it has a pretty lake and a quintessential Main Street. The scenery isn't half bad either. It remains the 436,328th place that I would recommend a foreigner should see. But I know plenty of locals that tout it as a place to visit. They are wrong. Being a local does not change that fact.

You see the sin of overplaying the secondary and underplaying the primary far too frequently, IMO. I've lost count of the times that folks have recommended Malmo as a great alternative to Copenhagen, for instance. Really? Malmo? Frankly, most of the off-the-beaten-path advice is pretty much the same. Are the cities nice? Sure, but there are plenty of nice places. The issue is distilling down to the places that are most worthwhile.

<i>I see a lot more posts here asking about Paris France than I do of the entire country of Germany. Why's that?</i>

Because Paris is Paris and Germany is not.

Great post. Thanks for starting it lavandula.