Is England a Country?
 

I recently read that England was the most dense country in Europe - recently surpassing the Netherlands in that dubious prize - and I often see references to England as a country - well I know Scotland could be a country but England - what does a country mean - to me it means being soveriegn and in the U.N. and Olympics - so why the heck is England often referred to as a country?

England is a country that joined with another country to form the United Kingdom. On many matters such as the UN and the Olympics they act as one country. In more important matters, such as football, they act as separate countries.

I always thought Monaco was the most densely populated state in Europe. Is that a country?

Well Malta I should have said was the most densely populated state - I should have said excluding the postage-stamp 'countries' - except for Malta I read in several British papers from Googling that 'England was now the densest European country' after Malta.

But yes Monaco or even the Vatican (lack of birth control) could be much higher.

Yes and Africa is a country too. :)

If you can see that Scotland might be a country, why do you have trouble seeing England as a country?

Monaco, Vatican City and Malta top the European list.

Whilst not a country in the UN sense the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom would argue that they are countries. 3 of the 4 have their own parliament in addition to the London UK Parliament.

right o but England don't have its own parliament and are called the home counties I think - and I think none of the constituent parts of the U.K. really fit my definition of what a country is - an elected head of state and parliament with total control.

I guess Isle of Mann and each Channel island is a country too - not that I care just wondered?

England has an international football team (soccer, that is) which to many of us is official proof. My British friends refer to the islands as the United Kingdom, UK being a neat contraction. Hence the Union Jack as the flag. It takes in Northern Ireland, Scotland (for now), Wales, and a handful of islands scattered around the coastlines and named for cows and horses and duty-free shops. Rule Britannia!

"Country" is ill defined. Think in terms of nation states. "England" is not a nation state, but the United Kingdom is a nation state, as are Malta, Vatican et al. Not sure about Monaco, which is not much. Disneyland is not a nation state.

Interesting discussion.

I hear Berwick-on-Tweed in the past at least claimed to be soveriegn - not part of England or Scotland?

Monaco is certainly a country, albeit quite a small one.

Monaco is a Principality. Pal, unless you are winding us up, your knowledge on this subject is quite breathtaking.

If you can see that Scotland might be a country, why do you have trouble seeing England as a country?>

Well again there is no English Parliament but the U.K. Parliament runs things for England I guess - to me that is a major difference between Scotland and England in terms of being a country.

I think Sark has more of a claim to being a country as it has its own head of state - some flukey royal but still.

But the U.K. does say that the Queen is lord over England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland so in that sense they should be the same.

Why don't England have their own parliament if Scotland and Northern Ireland (when not ruled direct by Parliament) do?

Are the English second-class citizens in their own country - first-class in terms of economy however and population.

There are lots of reasons for there not being an English parliament, way too complicated to go into here. I have no doubt you could find pages of internet information and rantings on the subject.
The head of state in Sark is the same as in England or Wales or Scotland or Gibraltar or New Zealand or Papua New Guinea.

"England don't have its own parliament and are called the home counties I think"

No - the Home Counties are just the counties closest to London, just a small part of England (and the grouping is not significant in any way). In popular culture the term, tends to be used as shorthand for the well-off middle class parts of the south.

Because England does not have its own separate entry in the Eurovision contest, it is not a country.

I am amused to see "having an elected head of state" as a determinant of nationhood.

By that standard, England is not a sovereign country, nor is the United Kingdom. Nor is the Netherlands or Sweden. Nor is Canada.

We are all monarchies. Our head of state in decided by birth, not election.

"Are the English second-class citizens in their own country - first-class in terms of economy however and population."

Don't get me started on that one.

"Why don't England have their own parliament if Scotland and Northern Ireland (when not ruled direct by Parliament) do?"

Don't forget Wales has an "assembly" as well, it seems that if you moan enough and get enough publicity, you can get what you want. Made me laugh when they were interviewing people in Scotland on the run up to the independence vote, their reason for voting yes was that "Westminster" has forgotten them. My immediate thought was "join the club love, Westminster has forgotten ALL of us" (including England).

>>"Why don't England have their own parliament if Scotland and Northern Ireland (when not ruled direct by Parliament) do?"<<

Because with 85% of the population England dominates the Westminster Parliament, and there are large areas of legislation where it would be hard to disentangle purely English aspects - and even if one does, there are knock-on effects onthe devolved administrations. England is the elephant in the bed whatever they do; whereas there are few if any knock-on effects in the reverse direction.

And a huge part of public spending and taxation decisions (pensions and social security) are on matters that aren't devolved to Scotland and Wales.

It wouldn't be impossible formally to federalise, or separate out English matters, just difficult, and hitherto it's not been thought worth the bother. And as soon as it's raised, the question of over-centralisation within England, and how best to deal with that, raises its head.

Because England does not have its own separate entry in the Eurovision contest, it is not a country.>>

so the footie doesn't count? All the 4 nations that make up the United Kingdom have their own teams that enter the European and World Cups.

Pal - without knowing it, you have hit upon the West Lothian question, beloved of Tam Dayell MPl and others - why should Scottish MPs be able to vote on purely English matters, but English MPs not be able to vote on purely Scottish ones?

endless articles, treatises and books have been written on this one!

I've always been confused by the term United States, does that mean each little bit is its own state, and how come Washington City is not included. What did Delaware? How come the whole state of Delaware can be a tax haven and yet Luxembourg is not allowed to be?

Then Costa Rica or is that Costa Coffee or Costa Nero is some sort of non-state colony.

Then there is Guantanamo which is some sort of slave state colony inside, the US army, inside another colony virtually surrounded by state in conflict with the United States over soap and tobacco, or do I get confused here?

Still I used to love selling stuff in Iraq while it was still a "protectorate of the USA" and we had to comply with all the UN (United Nations, which is not itself a Nation, or ever very United) protectorate legislation

You know this stuff is tricky and it is everywhere.

"Are the English second-class citizens in their own country - first-class in terms of economy however and population."

Of course they're not. One problem the UK has is that England dominates every conceivable aspect of the union (except for making haggis), so it's understandable the smaller provinces blame England for whatever's upsetting them this week. So, for most of the past 500 years, has much of the rest of the world, and the English really don't give a sod.

Anne's West Lothian question is so called because someone's supposed to have asked about it, once, in West Lothian - though there's no living witnesses of anyone actually discussing something of such mind-boggling irrelevance to West Lothianites. In reality it's because even fewer English people care about it than know or care what a West Lothian is and what you'd do with it if you found one.

And as Patrick says, anyone who thinks about this realises a separate English assembly would piss the lower orders off even more, and the EU's answer - lots of meaningless regions, with gazillions of parasites sucking subsidies out of the EU (ie out of other English regions) - is ridiculous.

What actually miffs many English is the quite different - and real - problem that most of Britain's growth - and intellectual property - happens within 100 miles of London, where there's not much room left for any more and where the even greater latent growth is suppressed by the impossibility of affording anywhere to live or of getting around.

Yet another Holyrood-style architectural monstrosity for posturers to bloviate in will do nothing to solve that. And no-one's really come up with a useful alternative.

Meanwhile, Westminster governs England as well or badly as it has for centuries. Unlike the inept legislatures of America, France, Canada or Australia - which all seem to have given up governing anything recently.

The over-wrought discussion groups at Stormont, Holyrood and Cardiff keep a bunch of tosspots off the streets, don't cost us that much to fund - but are quite irrelevant to the problem of England's regions.

A balanced budget ...comparatively low unemployment ...a solid banking sector ...secure borders and safe streets, relative to our big neighbour ...relative social harmony ...and the rule of law: in what specific area has Canada's Parliament proven ineffective or negligent? Parliament is a rather poisonous place these days but the country continues to tick along and the needed legislation - unlike the US - does get passed.

The United Kingdom (UK) is exactly what it says, a KINGDOM, it is not a country.The UK is made up of Great Britain (GB) and Northern Ireland. Great Britain consists of the countries of England, Scotland and Wales.

Her Majesty's Government (HMG), commonly referred to as the British Government, is the central government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.It is composed of 650 Members of Parliament (MPs), elected from the 650 constituencies from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.(They are collectively called the Commons and sit in the House of Commons. The House of Lords is a non-elected body.

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland each have their own flag. The Union Flag is made up of the Cross of St George (England), the Cross of St. Andrew (Scotland) and the Cross of St Patrick (N. Ireland ). the Welsh Dragon is not included. The Union Flag is often erroneously called the Union Jack. That is incorrect, it is only called that when it is flown from the Jack (mast) of a ship..

A country is whatever area enough people refer to as a country. A state is a legal entity. There may be any number of Venn diagram overlaps between the two and the notion of a nation, which is classically "that which defines itself as such".

Pace flanner, the West Lothian question is called that because it was asked by the then MP for West Lothian, Tam Dalyell, at the time of the original proposals for Scottish devolution in 1977-9. Of course, Scottish MPs don't get to vote on matters devolved to the Scottish Parliament either, but I don't know where that takes us. That's where it all gets a bit Schleswig-Holstein.

Meanwhile, Westminster governs England as well or badly as it has for centuries. Unlike the inept legislatures of America, France, Canada or Australia - which all seem to have given up governing anything recently.>

But wait a while - just read that third parties are a real threat to the 2 poarty dominated of British politics - well there are the Liberal Dems I know buy pretty much has been a Labour and Tory fight but the anit-immigration party and Lablour's threatened loss of many of its Scottish seats rears up the possibility of a real hung parliament - Italian style.

That's where it all gets a bit Schleswig-Holstein.>>

lol, Patrick.

How about the country of Cornwall - the flag could have a Cornish pastry on it! annhig for Chief Justice (or is it Just-Us?)?

>>and are called the home counties I think -<<

>>Cornish past<B><red>r</B></red>y<<

My oh my . . .

or thinking of janis, a Cornish hen?

In the UK we don't have any obsessions with either the Union Flag or the flags of the various nations. They come out on auspicious occasions, but after the event, they probably get rolled up in a ball and thrown into the nearest cupboard until the next occasion.We owe allegiance to the Queen not to a flag..

Did I not see the Flag of England a lot during the World Cup - the one with St Georges red cross on it? Yes I did see it a lot down in Brazil - I guess to distance themselves for the other constituent parts of the United (not very!) Kingdom?

janis for Queen!

The cornish flag is Black with a white cross on it, not dissimilar to the Breton flag. The languages are quite similar too. At Cornish rugby matches, a giant pasty is paraded round the ground before a match, and we have our own anthem too.

And yes you did see the Cross of St George [who never visited England] at the World Cup. if Scotland, northern Ireland or Wales had got there, there flags would have been there too.

BTW, did you know that with Rugby, the whole of Ireland is represented in the Irish team and that they sing two anthems?

Ask the crowd in the Millenium stadium if England and Wales are separate countries.

Wales are getting beat I see :(.

a rare English victory in Wales, hetismij, and revenge for England's defeat 2 years ago, when they stopped us winning the Grand Slam. I have to say that we felt that we'd beaten France as well - the french ref didn't seem very even-handed especially when he disallowed that 2nd try, but perhaps we were biased.

Of course we wave our Nations flags at sporting events and the like.We paint our faces in the colours of the flags. (And there's a thing , what do we mean by Nation? The Scottish National Party and the Welsh National Party). What we don't do is have the Union Flag in every school or public building and cross our hearts and swear to it each day.

It was a good rugby match and England deserve to win.

Is Catalonia a country? the Basque country a country? Brittany in France a country? - None have their own parliaments like England but are entities beholden to a central government that may or may not reflect their values.

Under the rather flukey grounds England is a 'country' I think those other would qualify as well and many more - how about the two Belgiums - the four distinct parts of Switzerland - I guess they all could be states if their federal government decided it, like the British government has.

Our or my definition of a country don't comport to England being a country - a word obviously used different in the U K than Stateside. That and U.N. memberships not to mention EU membership - we mix up the terms 'state' and 'country' from what Brits consider that to be. Heck Gibraltar is a country under that rule as is each of the five or more Channel Islands and even Berwick-on-Tweed!

But again it's just semantics and entities like FIFA who treats them for some reason like separate countries - that the IOC don't is very telling and comports with what we Yanks (janis excepted NO doubt) counsider a country to be.

In the commonwealth games England, Scotland , Northern Ireland , Wales??? Compete as separate countries .