Intolerance and Ignorance
 

After reading several posts on a wide variety of issues on travel to Europe, I have been amazed by the hostile attitudes towards Americans - we are ignorant, uncultured, too intolerant, etc. <BR> <BR>I agree, in terms of not knowing "book knowlege" and factoids, many Americans are lacking. But this is what I consider to be truly ignorant. <BR> <BR>To judge someone on how they dress (tennis shoes or shorts) as opposed to what kind of person they are is truly ignorant. <BR> <BR>To not recognize your own biases and intolerances is truly ignorant. <BR> <BR>When encountering people with differering oppinions and to simply respond "We don't want you ignorant Americans over here. Just stay home and don't bother us" is truly ignorant. I would never say that to a European. I have friends from Europe who live over here, and express how they don't agree with how certain things are done. But I have never asked them to leave the country! <BR> <BR>When I travel, I love the differences. I love trying different foods, learning about other cultures. Doing things totally different from what I would do at home. That is the beauty of travel. I always try to be respectful of my hosts and try to be a polite guest in another country. At the same time, I expect, as a guest, to be respected for being different, and my differences to be accepted as long as they don't infringe on anyone else's rights or sensibilites. <BR> <BR>One example that comes to mind is the issue on smoking. I am an asthmatic. I cannot help the fact that I am genetically disposed to having bad reactions to smoke. Yet some posters see non-smokers concerns as being culturally narrow minded, when we are simply trying to maximize our enjoyment of our vacation by not getting sick. <BR> <BR>If Europeans were so tolerant and open minded, why are then not tolerant when it comes to the health of others?

Nice try, Pickens. You'll stir up the usual crap about how America has polluted the rest of the world blah blah blah...B O R I N G. Go visit the thorntree site.

Europeans don't judge Americans because we wear white tennis shoes and wear cameras around our necks. When we arrive in their homelands, we should be able to say at least a few words in their language, and not expect them to follow our rules about smoking. Many Europeans smoke, so get over it. If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen. I'm sorry you have asthma, but don't you have medication, an inhaler or an oxygen tank to help your breathing while you are touring? You can't expect everyone to accommodate you. Otherwise, stay at home in your non-polluted surroundings and watch the Travel Channel. <BR> <BR>

Smoke pollution is recognised for the problem it is on both sides of the Atlantic. It is addressed here, only not in the same manner as in some parts of the USA. There are asthmatics in Europe too, we know that small children and elderl..., ol..., seni..., more mature persons should not be exposed to smoke, and we must find ways to protect all these people. <BR> <BR>I for one find very distasteful to have to suffer the smell of cigarette (or worse, cigar) while I'm supposed to enjoy my meal, and I'd be very happy to see the European laws respected in public places. Only, the only way to have a law respected is to make it understood and accepted by a majority of people, and this takes time. <BR> <BR>I work in a big university hospital, where a large portion of the nursing staff (!) smoke. The building has been designated as "a non-smoking area but not a non-smoker area". Little by little, we are reducing the number or areas where the staff (and patients and visitors) can smoke, offering courses and counselling on smoking cessation, etc. The acceptance of the new rules are better and better, and no major conflict has erupted. But it takes time and endless consultations, communication, negociation, etc. <BR> <BR>There is no reason to judge Americans (or anyone) on their desire to be spared the inconveniences due to smoking (or on their wearing any kind of clothing that hide the body parts that should remain hidden). It would just be nice if SOME could refrain from dictating the way we should address the problem and from making generalisations (Europeans smoke ? all Europeans, everywhere, all the time ? please).

Pickens, <BR> <BR>Someone who writes "We don't want you ignorant Americans over here. Just stay home and don't bother us" here is 99% likely to say so only in order to enjoy some heated reactions from both side on his thread...And he's 90% likely to be american himself.

Clairobscur, <BR> <BR>et les 10% restant sont de damnés crétins qui devraient non seulement rester chez eux mais résilier leur liaison internet !

To: Don't Be So High and Mighty <BR> <BR>I do speak a little of the language when I go to another country. I strongly believe you should do what you can to familiarize yourself with the language and culture. That is a part of the growth that comes with travel. But I guess this is the point I am making... <BR> <BR>Should an orthodox Jew be forced to eat bacon since that is what we serve for breakfast? <BR> <BR>Should an orthodox Muslim woman be forced not to wear the veil since no western woman wears one? <BR> <BR>If someone must eat a low-fat diet due to cardiac problems, should they never go to France? <BR> <BR>What about the physically challenged people? If the Vatican does not have ramps, to bad? <BR> <BR>What is so wrong about being sensitive to the physical needs of others? If some people want to smoke, fine. But why not reserve a small area for those who can't tolerate smoke? <BR> <BR>I am so glad for all the people who DIDN'T accept "that's just the way it is, if you don't like it, tough!" If we were all so complacent, we would still have slavery and women would not have the right to vote.

Pickens - <BR>Handicapped ramps at the Vatican? Where did that come from? It's all very well for us Americans to deface our own architecture in the name of political correctness, but are you going on some sort of crusade to make Europe do it too? <BR>When you are in another country, the reality is, as you put it, "that's just the way it is, and if you don't like it, tough!" Otherwise, you are being an arrogant prig and might as well stay home. Europeans aren't going to tell you you can't wear sneakers over there. That's just Americans on this board slavishly trying to look like Europeans. But you shouldn't be telling Europeans what's best for their country any more than you would want Europeans coming over here and spouting what's wrong with America. <BR>And if you are an orthodox Jew, just don't eat the damned bacon! But don't have a fit because it's on the friggin' buffet table at the hotel! <BR>

<BR>Merçi pour le sentiment, clairobscur et Florence. Nous savons qui a dit ça, et pourquoi. Dommage. Vous êtes trés gentilles.

Florence, <BR> <BR> <BR>Je suis censé me sentir visé, ou c'est une remarque d'ordre général?

Clairobscur, <BR> <BR>Mille pardons si je me suis exprimée d'une manière qui vous fasse penser que je vous attaquais. Je me référais, en appui à votre remarque, aux idiots qui ont sévi sur ce forum récemment en étalant leur stupidité et leur méchanceté. Vous n'avez de toute évidence rien à voir avec eux. <BR> <BR>Meilleures salutations de Genève.

And ARE YOU tolerant about Europeans on this FORUM????? <BR>We smell. <BR>We have hotel rooms with bugs and dirty baths. <BR>We don't shave our legs and under our arms. <BR>We eat a lot of garlic. <BR>We smoke. <BR>We are unfriendliy to tourists. <BR>We dont speak English. <BR>We don't understand you dialects and if you talk too quickly. <BR>etc. etc. etc. <BR>Think about this!!!!! <BR>Why do you keep coming to Europe????

Mika, <BR>I do not think you smell ! and I love garlic! :-) <BR>There are some posts specifically put on this board, in order to generate heated, unpleasant discussion. <BR>Alas, this is one of them. <BR>

Ah, yes, Martin, Jesus would have had none of that awful "PC" stuff -- thought only young, able, healthy, heterosexual white males were to be given the keys to the kingdom. Of course, Il Papa and his Red Birds refined the rules for belonging to the club a little further, and the result is all that wonderful gilded architecture that god himself would have built if he'd had the money. I'm sure if Jesus had had such an aedifice in Jerusalem, he would never have tossed the money-changers out.

Sorry Sante. I'm agnostic. I couldn't care less who is or is not supposed to get into heaven. I just like the architecture of the old European churches. But God help us (*grin*) if American start demanding that Europeans make all of their historic buildings handicapped-accessible.

By the way, St. Peters is accesable to the handicap. <BR>The ramp is around back or on the left side. <BR>Ask if you do not find it, you will be told. <BR>There is a gate on the left side (cars go in this gate) and you can go in and up the ramp. <BR>

And how many angel can dance on the head of a pin?

Boy, some of you just don't get it, do you! I am one person who does NOT concern myself with whether people use deoderant, shave, what clothes they wear, etc. Didn't you read my first statement where I CLEARLY stated that I believe that type of judgement is ignorant? Can you read? <BR> <BR>I think judging people on superficial issues like this is stupid. I have traveled to several third world countries and have NEVER had a problem because I treated the people with respect. In return, they respected me, and I had a very good time. <BR> <BR>But some posters on this point are proving my point. Instead of taking time to read carefully and consider carefully what is said, they immediately explode into some irrational tyrade that makes no sense in light of my original argument. They are blind to their own biases. <BR> <BR>What was my original point? That SOME of the posters on this board - Americans and Europeans - suffer from intolerance and ignorance. <BR> <BR>My examples, such as wheel chair ramps at the Vatican and an orthodox Jew forced to eat bacon were HYPOTHETICAL POINTS USED TO ILLUSTRATE A POINT, NOT A COMPLAINT ON MY PART! <BR> <BR>I appreciate the fact that effort has been made to make the world more inclusive for people who have differences. By the way, I am glad that the Vatican does have wheel chair access, even though I do not need one. If you dislike this positive change that makes the world more accessible to physically challenged people, you are truely pathetic! <BR> <BR>I think the greatest gift from travel will occur when cultures intermingle and growth occurs on both parts. <BR> <BR>So when I go to Europe (fist attempt at "more conventional" travel destinations!!) that some kind souls will have a tiny corner set aside for non-smoking and truely enforce the rules. I hope that all non smokers continue to ask for non-smoking area, and eventually this will become more of the norm, even in Europe. I feel that it is a matter of time before decreased smoking areas is the norm worldwide. So get over it (!) <BR> <BR>

Florence: J'ai vous compris, clairement. Merci une autre fois pour le sentiment chalereux. <BR>Mais, pourquoi la confusion, Mr. Clairobscur? Elle se referre aux autres, clairement. Vous avez toujours nous aidé. <BR>

Ne commencez pas ici a parler français, ça vous arrivera le même qu'au "post" : "Portugal and the Portuguese people".... just kidding! <BR>The intolerance is like the freedom... my freedom stops when the freedom of others arise! In life there are choices and options: for the things i don't enjoy I make my point and I don't insist I just go on... as in life! <BR>Alex <BR>

Clair & Alex go join your other racist friends in a personal chatroom. We are not interested in anything that you have to say. That also goes for your buddies Surlok, Bejeca and Joao! We have had enough of your portuguese crap on this board.

My Dear "Disgusted With Portuguese Racist ([email protected]) <BR>Date: 8/29/2001, 3:19 am ET": <BR>Your reaction just CONFIRMS what I said in my previous post. Many thanks! <BR>Alex <BR>PS... read the posts first; think twice after, before express your anger against serious people here! And give us a proper name and e-mail address... ;) <BR>

Hola, Alex! Hemos llegando a un punto interesante, no? Me has dado pausa. ¿Pero no es verdad que en juegos de lengua solo ciertos pueden jugar? Creo que el OP se refierre a la intolerancia en general...y hace buenos puntos. Me parece que como ciudadanas del mundo, cualquiera sea nuestra ciudadanidad, tendremos que mejorar la situación. No es todo un "power struggle", no? Vemos la consequencia de la intolerancia y no es bonita. Bueno...ten un buen dia. Y gracias por darme la oportunidad de escribir en Español que es infinitísimamente más facil para mi que el Frances. Es Portugal casi bi-lingüe? Ciao!

Disgusted, <BR> <BR>You'd better take Portuguese, French, Italian, German, Dutch, and even some English classes, so that you'll be able to undrestand what others are talking about... <BR> <BR>Otherwise.. get yourself a shrink.. In fact, do it quickly.. you're urgently needing some Haldol prescription! Poor thing... <BR> <BR>Surlok <BR> <BR>

Disgusted. Now, is this *really* the way to smooth over international relations? I think you misunderstood what was said on this thread. Good night.

I quit the boat! <BR>Sorry! <BR>I will change my "profession" and I will start giving fake advises to people who seeks info on countries that they don't know even if they exist or not.... in other pseudo-forum nearby de internet border! o tempora! o mores! Alex

I can understand the hostility toward certain "portuguese" people, after reading a very nasty post that has been constantly topping. I can say that I have read those postings and found the portuguese on that thread to be the worst bigots I have ever encountered in my entire life. Those people from Portugal and Brazil, on that post, truly hate everyone. And it was instigated by a portuguese/brazilian he/she who had no problems at all finding "her own people" to trash Americans, British, Spanish, etc. I can see why so many people were offended and angry. And they pretend they do not know why so many responses were severe.

I an portuguese and proud. I do hate gringo americanos an stupid britons an espanish an french. I only love my people an my contry. I an proud gay man from lisboa. I only like greek an italian boys. My contry is the best in world. We donot like you stupid people. I hate your contry.

B. Friedmann, <BR> <BR>I too can understand that some people have been shocked by some of the things some Portuguese-speaking people have written. Making disparaging comments about a country and its people in a language that you think most will not understand is at best childish. It does however not excuse any of the rude, vile, violent comments some English-speaking people have posted there, nor does it excuse some totally unwarranted comments on the lines of "stay at home if you don't like it" or the latest one by "Disgusted" on this thread. Those reactions are not even childish, they are totally uncivilised. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Mr ( or is it MRS?) B. Friedman, <BR> <BR>Had you read all posts, and had you understood them, you'd realize how mistaken you are, and how far from understanding what is going on here ( or on other threads). <BR> <BR>There are many posters on this board who have been to Portugal, Americans, by the way, that enjoyed the country immensely, and others that are happily looking forward their upcoming trip to Portugal. <BR> <BR>Your problem is that you're a selective reader, i.e.. you read what you "guess" that confirms your own prejudice against the Portuguese (and Brazilians, but then this is not a S. American forum, is it?), French , or whatever nationality which language you don't perfectly understand. <BR> <BR>My advise, Mr(s) B. Friedman, is that you learn how to read calmly and attentively, and maybe one day, your mind might get broader, be it by your travels, be it by conversing with people from all over the world. <BR> <BR>Surlok <BR> <BR>

Surlok <BR> <BR>That was stupid. That poster was effectively on your side. <BR> To respond in that fashion was churlish and rude, and you will continue the unhelpful stuff if you attack people for things they don't say. <BR> <BR>I satrt from the point of view that you are significantly more sinned against than sinning-but you ain't making it better either.

Surlok, you are the Queen of the Racist Portuguese! Do you really think anyone with intelligence is going to listen to you after all of your vile, racist, narrow-minded remarks? You may pretend to be clever, but you are not fooling the majoity of readers with your miss innocent routine, after the fact. And you really do need to practice on your spelling. Instead of dissing out your insulting elementary clinical diagnosis to everyone, and telling them what medications they should be on, why don't you follow your own advice. You are the one that should be in therapy and medicated.

I'm not Portuguese, Holly darling! <BR> <BR>See, where did you go to school? I've been telling thousands of times that I'm Brazilian, from Brazil, in South America, not Portugal. Can you read it? Do you need me to repeat it? I am Brazilian. Brazil is a laaaarge country in South America, whose inhabitants speak Portuguese, but are NOT Portuguese...Did you understand now, dear? <BR> <BR>And, sorry, darling, cleverness is something that is hard to pretend... or whether you are, or are not... Did you get it, dear? <BR> <BR>Surlok <BR> <BR>PS: sorry if I can't continue this intelligent conversation, but I have to go now. Enough for now.. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

ROFL.....sorry...I can't help myself...

Surlok, you sound delusional and hungover. You are the one that stated on the portuguese post that you are a brazilian, that was born in portugal, and planning to return to portugal sometime this fall. Maybe you wrote that when you were in one of your drunken stupors. You ignorant little girl, you need to keep track of all of your lies. One brazilian nutjob does not equal a clever human being. Tisk, Tisk, I Do Believe Your Fangs Are Showing.

I wouldn't bother responding to this surlok tramp. She seems like brazilian trash. Just let her die.

This dumb brazilian whore is just looking for attention. Don't give it to her!

Holly dear, one more post before I leave..please go back to the prime.. You got a Z in English comprehension. <BR> <BR>Now, be good, and go back to pre-school, whereas Aunt Surlok is being patient with your ignorance... <BR> <BR>Aunt Surlok

Americana, <BR> <BR>Not everybody can play, indeed. But when a portuguese/french speaker is talking with another portuguese/french speaker, I can't see any reason why they should use another language than their own. <BR> <BR>And no, Portugal isn't essentially bilingual (assuming that you mean spanish/portuguese). On occassion, I tried spanish when french and english both failed, without much success. <BR> <BR>Some portuguese people even resent being adressed in spanish (more than they would ressent being adressed in english, methink). They think you're assuming they're merely a kind of spanish province, or something, I suppose... <BR> <BR>Nevertheless, I believe that speaking both spanish and english, you would be just fine in Portugal.

Why Surlok, who gave you permission to leave the streets? I have warned you of not satisfying the needs of your Master. You are my Number One Whore. I need you to be obedient before I loose my temper and send you to the dungeons. Now go back to being a good portuguese wench, and make us some money. And I promise to buy you a pair of shoes.