Intimidated by Europeans?
 

On our last trip to Europe in April, we were in Amsterdam and I just marveled at the fact that almost everyone spoke English so well even using American idioms properly. A humbling experience for me with my barely coherent high school Spanish. I know, I know...it's a small country so to be able to communicate , knowledge of English is mandatory, but they also knew other languages as well. Which made me think, what's wrong with us expecting everyone to know our language...that whole "Ugly American" thing. Does anyone else feel intimidated when in Europe...not just by language, but anything else?

Only by the sales clerks in Paris. :-)) Just kidding. But I think you are leaving an important fact out of the equation.

For all sorts of historical and economic reasons (please let's not get into it on this thread), English IS the lingua franca of the world. No matter where you go, you've got a pretty good chance of finding someone who speaks it.

If you don't speak French or German or Italian (because you happen to be Japanese or Nigerian or Brazilian) you are just as likely as an American to ask that ubiquitous question, "Do you speak English?" I think Americans are a bit TOO sensitive about it. Plenty of other nationalities use English to communicate in foreign countries as well.

On the other hand, I can't understand anyone not bothering to learn a few key words in the language of any place they are interested enough in to visit. "Please," "thank you," "good day," and "where's the toilet" are sure on the top of my list!

I think the Brits would see it as expecting everyone to speak OUR language. Remember, we invented it.

EnglishOne, Maybe Marilyn should have been more explicit: AMERICAN English is the lingua franca. And I think American English speech and spelling is taking a stronger hold in the UK too. Being a 'power user' of Microsoft software all day every day, the word 'favourites' now looks strange to me (another Brit). Favorites looks correct.

Anyway, I think Marilyn is right. It's rude to assume others speak English. The least one should do is learn how to say 'do you speak English?' in their language, and preferably 'hi', 'bye', 'thanks' etc.

Well, 'favorites' doesn't look right to me, and Microsoft won't rule for ever. Anyway, they're 'bookmarks' to me. But then, I still talk about 'the wireless'.

We British should beat ourselves up a bit more, and lucky03 maybe a bit less, about not speaking a foreign language. It's a fact of circumstances that you don't need to in the US, but we do in Europe. Americans no doubt have various skills of use in America that we don't, because we organise life differently in Europe.

On the other hand, English of one sort or another is not the only lingua franca in the world. In many aspects of intra-European contact it is by default becoming so, but with (obviously) a lot of resistance. I rather liked the suggestion that the EU should only use French, German and English but that no-one should their native language!

Eventually - maybe fairly soon - we will probably need to have some stock of phrases in Mandarin....

In parts of the US, like it or not, some folks have realized the possible need to be at least a bit conversant in Spanish.
Perhaps the thing that's "wrong" with expecting everyone to "know our language" is the fact that some people, as a result, DO feel "intimidated" when they travel elsewhere when they suddenly realize that this "expectation" may not be the best course and attitude.

Lucky 03, I'll let you in on the reason that so many Dutch speak English well. Partly it is because most Europeans, as you know, learn English in school from an early age, but also it is because, especially in the Netherlands and Scandinavia, they get a lot of American tv programs which are not dubbed but shown just with subtitles.

If the average American watched a lot of TV in a language other than English over a long time period, then I am sure that it would have some effect on his/ her ability to be reasonably proficient in that language.

Lucky03, you are overlooking the simple geographic necessity that makes Europeans to speak other languages. In the U.S., you can drive 3000 miles and along all those miles, English is the official language. Drive 3000 miles across Europe and the official languages are German, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, etc. etc. English is the default second language they know is practical for business. Their third language often comes from having relatives through marriage in another country.
Multilingualism is no indicator of higher virtue--in Belgium, there are three official languages and the fact that most people speak at least two languages doesn't make the country run any more efficiently (the opposite seems to be more likely). People aren't innately nicer, smarter, friendlier simply because they speak more than one language. They do so because it's NECESSARY. If it wasn't necessary--or at least sensible--they probably wouldn't.
It's the same with diet, FYI. The reed-thin Italians I know all complain that when they go on business trips to the U.S. they come home with extra kilos. They said it's easy to talk about American lack of dietary willpower when they're on the other side of the Atlantic, but they lose their own discipline when faced with tempting hotel breakfast buffets of French toast and pancakes with maple syrup...or cheesecakes and Cinnabons in the afternoon.

Nice reply, BTilke. I still think two languages should be mandatory in U.S. gradeschools. This may be the easiest way to strengthen English in this country.

As for this thread, NOBODY intimidates me! I do all the intimidating. (Although, back in the day, I was scared shi*less. Then I learned Italian and French.)

I'm always rather amused by this English/American thing. Why do you think that people in many parts of Africa, the Indian Subcontinent and in North America speak English? It's because for a couple of centuries give or take, they were British colonies.
There are places, e.g. China where they prefer to learn what they call "standard English".

I agree that American students should learn a second language (or third) but students shouldn't wait until high school--it's so much easier to learn foreign languages when you start at a young age.
But on the other hand, why stop at foreign languages. Students should be studying music, art, foreign cultures, etc. And Spanish shouldn't be the *only* second language offered.
In my public Pennsylvania high school, I had the choice between French, German, Spanish or Latin. I studied French and Spanish (wish I had taken German, too). I also had music theory five days a week, art three days a week, chorus three days a week, etc. School budgets are cut to the bone these days--would rather our schoolkids got that $87 billion--but that's another, non-travel thread.

Hi lucky,

I have never felt intimidated when people in other countries are kind enough to speak to me in English. Grateful is more like it.

Most American tourists are not irrogant or intimidated when they travel to Europe. You can be respectful and appreciate other cultures and customs without downplaying your own.


You find good and bad everywhere you travel. Focus on the good things.

Although it was mentioned above, TV plays a major role in the "amount" or "quality" of English that Europeans speak. In Scandinavia and in many smaller European countries, the TV is filled with American (and British) programs in English with local subtitles. That is a rarity in Germany, France, or Italy. As a result it always seems that those natives of the smaller countries are easier to understand -- sometimes seeming to have no "local accent" to their English. Not so with Germans and French who may have learned some English is school, but aren't hearing it daily on the TV.

I agree with Patrick's point. One thing that really niggles me about French television is the lack of subtitles. Even on news items or documentaries, rather than subtitling dialogue by speakers of foreign languages, they dub it in a really annoying fashion, so that you can just about - but not quite - hear the original language underneath the French. I'd much prefer them to use subtitles so that viewers can properly hear what's being said in the original language and read the dialogue via subtitles.

I always feel a little humbled by the multilingual abilities of some Europeans, particularly those from the smaller countries or that live in regions where at least three linguistic boundaries converge. It is a mistake, however, to assume that all, or even most, Europeans are multilingual. I have certainly encountered plenty of monolingual Europeans.

Keep in mind that almost no one learns a foreign language out of respect for foreigners. In most cases, the languages we speak are solely dictated by geography and economics. The Dutch learn English, German and French because they are surrounded by economically powerful nations in which these languages are spoken. The same is true for Belgium, Luxembourg, and even Switzerland. In contrast, the larger the country, the higher percentage of monolingual and bilingual speakers. Europe is no exception to this rule. The exceptions, on an individual basis, tend to be residents of larger European nations that must deal with a variety of foreign businesses or customers.

To put the US in this geographic context, consider that Germany, the largest nation in western Europe, is slightly smaller than Montana, the fourth largest US state. From this perspective, it is no wonder that many Americans are monolingual. It's almost an inevitable consequence of geography.

If a different language was spoken in every US state, the vast majority of Americans would be multilingual. In addition to my native language of Coloradan, I would also speak Wyomish, New Mexican, Utahn and Kansan, with maybe a little Nebraskan.

Of course, there are some exceptions to the geography and economics rule. Acquisition of a foreign language was a mandatory part of my Ph.D. program (French in my case). Some will pick up a bit of English because they love the Beatles or Hollywood movies. Travelers that find themselves repeatedly visiting France or Italy may decide to learn French or Italian.

One final thought, don't assume that the overwhelming majority of Americans are monolingual. Spanish is a very common second language among non-Hispanics residing in the states that share a border with Mexico. Even in my state of Colorado, which does not share a border with Mexico, Spanish is a very popular language in the high schools and universities. A recent news report stated that more than 10% of Americans were born outside the US- certainly they are bringing some bilingual (if not multilingual) skills to the population. LDS adherents (Mormons) often learn at least one foreign language as part of their mandatory missionary assignments. Many of my college-educated friends and colleagues have had some exposure to a second (and in some cases a third) language, and some are quite fluent.

There was a thread that got pretty hot a few months back that addressed the subject of English as a global language. Those interested in the topic might want to do a search. Some of the comments I made in that thread reflect the same sentiments expressed above. I also cited a linguist (David Crystal, from Oxford I believe) who estimated that nearly one-quarter of the global population speaks English with at least minimual functional fluency.

In light of this interesting discussion I had a business meeting last week in France.
Present were a spaniard, an italian and me (english). No french people. However french is the only language that we all three have in common and so it was that all three of us had to conduct a three hour meeting in a second language.

It made me feel very european and proud of our shared cultural and historical heritage.

Dr D.

Let me clarify: While I am as aware and amused as anyone by the charming differences between British English and American English, I think they are entirely irrelevant when it comes to the sort of communication one has as a tourist in another country. In other words, I stick by my statement that "English (no nationally descriptive adjective) is the lingua franca of the world."

As a bilingual American (I speak German, too), I am not necessarily intimidated by Europeans but perhaps a little jealous. The reason they speak other languages, usually English, so well is because, as someone said, they are taught in grade school. The reason so many Americans have "barely coherent" language skills in anything but English is because we are not taught other languages until high school, and that makes a huge difference. Studies have shown that it is much easier for a child of, say, 7 years old to learn a language than a young adult of 14. So not only do they learn it for longer, but they are taught at their prime age.

No, I am usually charmed by Europeans, impressed by Europeans, and most often, entertained by Europeans.
I think if I lived in Europe, I would speak more languages, but living in the USA, one does get along without needing to know French, etc. That problem is with our schools..not with being American.
I am more impressed by young kids who go to Europe with a backpack on their back and just enough to stay in a hostel and eat cheap food for months who never worry about the food, the bed or if anyone will understand them. Now that intimidates me!

No I am not intimidated in the least bit...but then again I'm from Texas and it take a lot to impress us:)

Hey Scarlett -- I did that! At least four times, between the ages of 19 and 26. And when I think of how little it cost then...

No.

mmm, cinnabons

Well, Marilyn you impress me anyway so there you have it :)
mr wunrfl, I love your name ~

Why, thank you, Mizz Scarlett. You are too kind. Sometimes when I think of some of the things I did as a "kid" I impress myself! (Hitchhiked from Transylvania to Istanbul -- we must have been insane.)

Now that is cool!
"I hitchhiked from Transylvania!!"
That should be a book!!

oh my god. Who in their right mind would pick up a hitchhiker in Transylvania???

No I do not feel intimidated by Europeans. heck we are a great country and a big one which is part of the problem. I for one speak two foreign languages and I am happy that I do but I do understand the Maerican dilemma. Our country is composed of people from many, many different countries, so which language should we learn? Should it be Spanish, french, german, Hungarian, Greek, Chinese, Polish etc.... You get the picture. Holland is a small country and they do have a great ability for languages. After all, just how many people speak Dutch???English on the other hand is a commercial language. Anyway, I think a guide book and a smile go a long way.

Patrick, a very nice young couple from New Zealand who had a camper van. If they hadn't picked us up I think we'd still be standing by the side of the road somewhere in Romania! (This was about 30 years ago, by the way.)

I suppose that Americans might feel as "intimidated" as Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Brits, Irish, and Canadians. A Swede who I met summed it up when he told me he speaks English because Swedish gets you nowhere while English is an international language.

I really admire the Europeans I know or have encountered who can easily switch between a couple languages fluently. I speak French pretty well and have studied or know a smattering of others, but both my parents were language teachers (my father spoke at least three languages pretty fluently, and my mother did also) and sometimes spoke Spanish or French around the house when they didn't want us kids to know what they were talking about, so I learned some in self defense. I think I have some facility for languages, and I know it is very had for some others.

I don't really agree that the reason some Europeans know more than one language well is because they studied it in grade school. I don't think it matters that much, although if you really take it continuously for 12 years or more, it should help. I know children who have taken foreign languages beginning 7th grade and they don't really know the language very well at all even by college. A lot of the language classes in the US grade schools don't seem to teach very much, at least from the kids I know, they mainly learn a few nouns for things but not much grammar and they can't construct sentences.

There are many Europeans who can't speak other languages that well at all, in my experience, it is mainly the well-educated ones who do and those who are in the hotel or travel industry. If it is mandatory in their grade schools, then they had those classes, also. I think the main thing that makes them or anyone learn a language well is simply using it, over a long time and on a fairly regular basis. As one example, I have a German friend who knows English fluently because she now lives in the US and uses it at work, but she can't speak Spanish at all, only remembers a few words, even though she said she had quite a few years of it in school -- because she has never used it and doesn't have to use it daily.

Anyway, I don't think it really makes much difference if one studies a language in grade school. I think it depends how much you study it later on and how much you practice it.

As I was reading the posts about the need to begin study of foreign languages at an young age, I wonder. Unless one speaks the language on a regular basis in real-life situations, will one really be proficient? That's why the Europeans have an edge--smaller and constant interaction with multi-language people especially if they are in a service industry.

Which brings up another topic, does it make sense to leach foreign languages in schools, or should it be an elective if one thinks they will have need for that language in the future--but can a child make that decision. Don't know but most people I know have learned a foreign language and never use it. So why bother studying it?? Perhaps to keep the language teachers employed!!

"In the U.S., you can drive 3000 miles and along all those miles, English is the official language. Drive 3000 miles across Europe and the official languages are German, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, etc. etc."

Btilke, you must be driving in circles?

"Their third language often comes from having relatives through marriage in another country."

Not every European marries a European from a different country you know!

In fact, you only generally find trilingual Europeans in Switzerland, Holland, Belgium and Scandinavia. Obviously there are many Brits, Germans, Italians, Spaniards and French who can manage three languages but most manage one or two and perhaps a third one badly. But if you speak French and Italian, Spanish really comes pretty easily.

UKUKUK, don't know why my posts get up your nose so badly, but the fact of my previous post remains: travel 3000 miles in the U.S. and you're still speaking the same language, albeit with a difference accent. Travel 3000 miles in Europe and you could be covering about a dozen languages.
As for trilingual through marriage, I said "often"--not "every European." For example, my Italian boss is speaks Spanish because his mother is Spanish and speaks French because his wife is French. I speak French but also German (my husband is half German and I now have many German relatives through marriage). I also speak some Dutch because it's the polite thing to do if you spend a lot of time in Flanders or the Netherlands and am learning Italian because I work with an Italian company. So yes, I do know that not "every European marries a European from a different country" (and never said or implied such a thing) but thank you so much for your great kindness and helpfulness in pointing that out.

My experience is people begin studying a new language SUCCESSFULLY when they need it. Keeping things proportional seems the best strategy for most. For example, you'll be in Paris for five days, and you need to manage the basics. Obviously a phrase book is a good tool. If you desire to immerse yourself in a weekend course, that helps as well. As far as teaching kids a new language, sure, if that's what they want. It should be their choice. I would hope we're beyond cookie cutter thinking when it comes to curriculum. Language need not be a prerequisite for anything. Education is best when interesting and useful and timely. And selected thoughtfully.

I wonder how many Americans know that millions of Americans are bilingual. We may perhaps have more bilingual citizens than most European countries. For example the tenth largest city in America, San Antonio has more bilingual people than English-only speaking. Most of the Southwest is bilingual. Add Florida, California, New York, even Fargo North Dakota where there is a significant part of the population who speaks English as well as one of seven first languages from Africa and Asia.

I cannot recall if the Census or another Federal or private survey polls for language skills.

Does anybody know what percentage of people in the UK speak two or more languages?

I did a fast research keyed on UK Language Skills. A survey showed up that reported 34% of UK residentd know a second language, compared with 54% on the Continent. Cannot vouch for accuracy.

"I wonder how many Americans know that millions of Americans are bilingual. We may perhaps have more bilingual citizens than most European countries."

That's hardly a revelation, considering that the number of US citizens outnumbers the population of most European countries by at least 10 to 1.