Intense Itinerary: Looking for help making adjustments.
 

Hi everyone!

This is my first post so go easy on me! I have my first trip to Europe booked for April of 2013 and I have a very intense itinerary and I was hoping that some of you with more experience would help guide my ventures. There are two non negotiable areas that I have to travel to, my flight from the USA arrives in London and leaves from Madrid, but I am really having trouble figuring out the middle of my trip.

My trip is planned of the following:
Fly to London and arrive on April 6th
Spend 3 days in London, on third day travel by train to Paris.
Spend 2 days in Paris, then travel by train to Lucerne
Spend 2 days in Lucerne and then travel by train to Geneva
Catch a Flight from Geneva to Venice
Spend 2 days in Venice, then travel to Rome
Spend 2 days in Rome, then catch a flight to Barcelona
Spend 2 days in Barcelona, then travel by train to Madrid
Spend 2 days in Madrid and fly out on the 20th to get back to the USA.


I have seen a few different routes from Lucerne to Venice but I cant seem to find the best route, either by train or plane. Also I am a little nervous trying to squeeze so many different places into such a short time. Is this itinerary a realistic one? I am only traveling by train/flights and I wont be using a rental car. Once again, I am very new to traveling through Europe and I honestly want to make the most/best out of my trip and my time. I am looking for any help that any of you could give me! I truly appreciate your time and expertise!

I am hoping to have the trip of a lifetime!

Thank you!

~C

you have 14 nights and want to visit seven major cities in four countries. This is nuts (meant in the nicest possible way.)

In none of your destinations will you have nearly as much time as you think.

Too many places, not enough time. Forget Switzerland, and fly or take a night train from Paris to Venice.

Some things to consider: Your first day is taken up w/ arrival formalities, logistics and jetlag . . . basically a non-day

The 20th is strictly a travel day - packing, checking out, getting to the airport.

You lose almost a whole day Lucerne to Geneva to Venice.

You lose almost a whole day Rome to Barcelona

You lose half a day for every other travel day.

So out of your 14 nights/15 days you are spending 6 full days in transit and only have 9 days to "see/do".

I certainly agree this is too much. I'd first off just drop the whole Lucerne/Geneva thing. Not that they are lousy places to visit, but they're not in the same league as the rest of your list and by rearranging things, you can have a better/saner itinery and thus a better shot at a "lifetime" trip:

3 days London
3 days Paris
3 days Venice
3 days Rome
3 days Madrid

Note, I also left out Barcelona. Once again, it's just adding too much travel-time and hassle for at best a days sightseeing. Barcelona deserves alot more than a day.

Even the above trip is going to be rushed, but I think doable (depending on your personal energy reserves) and with 3 days, you'll at least get a decent taste of each city.

- Kevin

<< Is this itinerary a realistic one? >>

This trip will allow for memories of train stations and airports and little else. It takes about 2 days to become acclimated to a new city and when you're unfamiliar with a place, getting to and from sights takes more time than you think it will. It also takes time to travel from one city to another.

This is your itinerary. I don't understand how you have the amount of time you claim in each location and still plan to return home on April 20.

Did you mean that you would spend 1 day in some locations? Or perhaps you did not account for the time it takes to travel from one location to the other.


April 6 - arrive London
April 7-9 - London
April 10 - travel to Paris
April 11-12 - Paris
April 13 - travel to Lucerne
April 14-15 - Lucerne
April 15 - train to Geneva then flight to Venice
April 16-17 - Venice
April 18 - travel to Rome
April 19-20 - Rome
April 21 - travel to Barcelona
April 22-23 - Barcelona
April 24 - travel to Madrid
April 25-26 - Madrid

I've done parts of the route, and think that unless you have a reason to go to Geneva, I'd just skip it and go straight from Lucerne to Venice. It kinda looks like you're swinging back and forth, like switchbacks going from Paris to Lucerne, then Lucerne to Geneva, then to Venice... when you could prob do the TGV from Paris to Lausanne/Geneva, then go up to Lucerne, which will take you a better part of the day. I broke it up by going to Zermatt and Interlaken in betw, but I didn't go to Italy. If you can drop at least one place, like Geneva, I think you'll enjoy the extra time in either Paris or Lucerne. There's so much to see in Paris, you'll love the extra time to relax and/or enjoy an extra activity. If you're still willing to fly betw two points, fly from Lucerne to Venice to buy yourself a couple extra hours in Venice. Its probably about the same in rail or airfares, so it becomes a time advantage you're looking for. If you're having trouble finding a flight, check out options to get to Milan, then take the train from Milan to Venice. That's only about a 2 hr train ride, and you'll get the chance to maybe sneak a quick excursion in to see the Milan Cathedral or go shopping there.

Hope this is helpful!! Have fun!!

Yeah, as painful as it is, you really need to drop at least one of your five countries. Really you should drop two. You have to have London and Spain so you really should just sit down and decide which of the others can wait till next time. Most people would say Switzerland but only you know your priorities.

There are lots of different styles of travel - even on this forum. Many people totally hate one, two and even three night stays. But even for people who do enjoy that kind of travel, you can't have a whole trip of them (you can scatter two night stays in between four/five night stays) - plus- you have to consider how long the travel is between them. If you are staying one place for two days, then taking a short train ride (3 hr or so) to the next that's one thing, but your distances are way longer than that, and several include flying - that really eats of the entire day.

I would do London, Paris and then probably Spain since that's where you are flying out of. It looks like you have 15 nights. If you did 3 or 4 nights each that leaves you with only one more week. Split between Barcelona and Madrid that's still a pretty fast paced trip. I am totally in love with Italy but really, you don't have time. If Italy is more important to you than Spain and you can't change your return ticket then do the week in Italy and just fly to Madrid for two days at the end.

But if you decide Italy is more important to you than Spain, look into how much it would cost to change the return ticket. Hundreds of dollars yes, but how much do you think all those train/plane tickets you need to go between your five countries is going to cost.

You have locked yourself into London and Madrid and you have a very limited amount of time.

IMHO the only thing that makes sens is to limit yourself to London, Paris and Madrid - and actually see something of the places you will visit, As your plan is set up you have only 1 days in many of these cities and you are spending as much time traveling as you are actually seeing dong things.

Limiting to 3 places allows you to actually see more than a couple o fmajor sights, to learn about the city and it's expore its life and even do a couple of day trips out into the countryside to see major sights there (Windsor Castle or Oxford, Versailles, Toledo).

Leave Switz and Italy for a different trip - which you will need 17 or 18 days to actually see much of.

Believe me, I have been to europe more than 100 times - between vacation and business - and what you have planned will be a very expensive (since you are moving so much) and frustrating experience.

Might i suggest four nights each in London, Paris, Rome, and Madrid? (Or possibly swap out Venice for Rome). This would give you a lovely overview of Europe with a little time to actually enjoy each location. Remember that an important part of "experiencing" Europe is lingering in cafes, roaming small streets, getting lost... You need to give yourself time for these things.

Also, all the travel you plan to do will eat up a lot of money as well as time. All that travel starts to add up quickly. You will have more time and money to truly enjoy your trip if you cut out a few locations.

Welcome to Fodors, as the guys say you have put a lot of trains and planes in your holiday. Some of your sites are big cites will plenty to do in them while others are no more than towns with a lot of nature to ramble in. April is an ok month but you will find a few chilly/wet days in the north.

So it does depend on why you want to be on holiday as to which two sites you drop out. I'd drop the swiss bits but others might not. If I had extra days (ie the swiss ones) I'd put them in London and Rome both of which look a little light.

I'd dig out something like the rough guide to europe and work out what to drop and then come back

And many of the places on the itinerary are more interesting than Switzerland.

My thinking: If you are going to do this "zip" tour, then you might as well go with a "If It's Tuesday, It Must Be Belgium. At least those have all the packing lists, luggage out, transfer, ticket in hand type of thing. You will be doing a lot of traveling, take a lot of pictures and see...
NOTHING.

So you can
...Change your beginning or end point (yeah, it will cost you, but right now, you are costing yourself zillions in between-city travel)
AND/OR
...Pick THREE places you really want to visit. Arrange those logically. If you can then fit in a fourth and fifth in a connect-the-dot easily, then go for it.

But you are brave to ask us! Do enjoy this planning part. Remember, all travel is anticipation, the journey, and the memories.

>>>>Fly to London and arrive on April 6th
Spend 3 days in London, on third day travel by train to Paris.
Spend 2 days in Paris, then travel by train to Lucerne
Spend 2 days in Lucerne and then travel by train to Geneva
Catch a Flight from Geneva to Venice
Spend 2 days in Venice, then travel to Rome
Spend 2 days in Rome, then catch a flight to Barcelona
Spend 2 days in Barcelona, then travel by train to Madrid
Spend 2 days in Madrid and fly out on the 20th to get back to the USA. <<<

Reality check:

April 5 - Depart USA
April 6 - Arrive London, check-in, recover from jet lag
April 7 - London (day 1)
April 8 - London (day 2)
April 9 - London (you did say you had 3 days in London)
April 10 - Transfer to Paris (travel and check out/in will take minimum of a 1/2 day)
April 11 - Paris (day 1)
April 12 - Paris (day 2)
April 13 - Travel to Lucerne
April 14 - Lucerne (day 1)
April 15 - Lucerne (day 2)
April 16 - Travel to Geneva/Venice
April 17 - Venice (day 1)
April 18 - Venice (day 2)
April 19 - Travel to Rome (train travel alone is 4 hours plus time it takes to check out, get to station in Venice, get from station in Rome to hotel and check in - your day is shot)
April 20 - Oops! Out of time! No more trip and you are nowhere close to Madrid.

Drop Switzerland and Italy. Focus on London/Paris and Spain since your flights are already booked.

London (April 6,7,8,9) 3 sightseeing days
Paris (April 10,11,12) 2 sightseeing days (you will be shortchanging Paris
Barcelona (April 13,14,15,16) 3 sightseeing days
Madrid (April 17,18,19) 2 sightseeing days
April 20 - Fly home

I like to create a day-by-day itinerary. I note the travel between locations since it will take up at least half the day, perhaps more, when you consider checking out of hotels, travel to stations/airports, finding way through terminals an waiting, actual travel time, finding way through new place to hotel and so forth. So if a train ride is estimated at 2 hours, you should probably add on at least another 2 hours (more like 3 or 4 extra hours if flying) to make all these connections.

Your proposed itinerary:
April 6: arrive London
April 7: London
April 8: travel to Paris
April 9: Paris
April 10: travel to Lucerne
April 11: Lucerne
April 12: travel to Geneva, fly to Venice
April 13: Venice
April 14: travel to Rome
April 15: Rome
April 16: fly to Barcelona
April 17: Barcelona
April 18: fly to Madrid
April 19: Madrid
April 20: fly home

For your proposed itinerary, you are traveling very other day, and you might have a day and a half of quality time in each location. You are correct in calling this plan "intense." If something goes wrong (transit strike, flight cancellation) in a tight itinerary such as this, you plan could go up in smoke, so do look into alternatives

It will be important to check on opening and closing times for the sights you hope to visit in each city. Many places have midday closing times, or are closed on Sundays or Mondays. Also check for holidays in each country, which might change opening times or transit schedules. It would be a shame to discover that a major place of interest to you in a particular city was closed on the one day you had to visit.

I am so very lucky that I asked for everyone's help! Even reviewing some of the different options I can honestly feel my blood pressure dropping. You guys are truly experts in what you do and my trip will truly thank you! I am honored that you responded and I can feel the frustration and confusion leaving! Yay! With regards to my initial itinerary, I was hoping to do night trains, so spend the whole day in the city and travel by night. So I would leave London on the 9th, Paris on the 11th, Lucerne on the 13th, Venice on the 15th, Rome on the 17th, Barcelona on the 18th and Madrid on the 20th. Even looking at just those travel dates my head is wondering why I even tried in the first place! That is way to much and I need to cut the travel days. It was like 21 hours of travel, so I lost a day in my trip just by being on trains. I really like the comment of "getting lost in a city, " that really put it in perspective. I want to find those cafes and really feel the experiences of the people and culture! I kept getting caught up and stuck in Switzerland. I know it is only due to my crazy planning! I have my heart set on London, Venice/Rome, and Barcelona/Madrid and it is difficult to tie all of those places together. Even writing it together feels clustered. I do not want to turn this trip into a train/plane nightmare. Kevin I really liked your proposed itinerary and kybourbon I really appreciate the reality check. It all comes down to narrowing down my places to see and use the other places in another trip! Thank you all for taking the time to help me sort through my disastrous plans and for helping me focus on a much better trip! I am truly indebted to you for this priceless advice!

Glad you are helped by our suggestions.

(If you plan to use night trains in your revised plan, you should check if night trains between the places actually exist. Some of the trips may be too short for night trains, or the night train departs at midnight and arrives very early n the morning--hardly restful.)

My advice to people who want to see a lot, is to assume that you'll be back.

Hooray for you! Yes, all the places you were hoping to visit are wonderful in their own way, and the hardest part is making choices. A good place to begin may be by looking at actual train and plane schedules. Sometimes it becomes clear that it is much easier or cheaper to get to one location than another so it sort of makes the choice for you.

And then you just have to know you'll come back someday. You still won't see everything in that trip, or ten more trips, but you will have many wonderful memories. Half the fun of a trip like this is the planning. Enjoy!

Yes - I'd forget about the night trains -maybe one just for the experience. But night after night of fitful sleep (or possibly none) will wear you out worse than the jet lag. Plus on some of your routes there is no through train so you have to change trains in the middle of the night.

"<i>I have my heart set on London, Venice/Rome, and Barcelona/Madrid</i>"

Then do that -- it would be doable but it will still be very rushed. The only trains would be between Rome/Venice and Barcelona/Madrid -- so no sleeper trains would be involved.

This is one option: London Apr 6- 9, Fly to either Venice or Rome the morning of the 10th, Apr 10 - 15 divided between Rome & Venice, Morning of Apr 16 fly to Barcelona. Morning of Apr 18 train to Madrid. Apr 20 fly home.

2 days for Barcelona and 2 days for Madrid is still way too rushed. It would be much more realistic to cut London Or Italy or Spain and just visit 2 countries. Or choose between Rome and Venice (droppinig one) or Barcelona and Madrid (dropping one).

I can certainly understand the desire to see it all - my first trips were group tours of the "If this is Tuesday it must be Belgium" variety. The pace is so relentless there is no time to sit down, relax and let the experiences come to you. I was so busy just checking sites off my "list" that I had to see. Even my first few non-tour trips were hectic. I finally realized that I'd be returning and some of the best travel experiences are the ones that are not planned and not the most famous places and sites.

Oh, and night trains. I have a horrible time sleeping on them. The comparison to jetlag is exactly how I feel after an overnight train.

"<i>2 days for Barcelona and 2 days for Madrid is still way too rushed. It would be much more realistic to cut London Or Italy or Spain and just visit 2 countries.</i>"

Yes - of course it is too rushed - but if your dream destinations are London/Venice/Rome/Barcelona/Madrid -- that is at least a way to squeeze them in.

London and Madrid are sort of musts since you are flying in/out there. You could skip London and fly directly on to Italy. But you'd still be arriving in London so that would be a shame IMO.

If you cut Italy you could do London Barcelona Madrid and have time for a day trip out of one or two cities.

It really depends on what you "Must" do. If all five cities are musts, you can manage it. Perfect - no. Doable - yes.

janisj-

Well, in that case if Barcelona and Madrid are both musts then I wouldn't suggest 2 nights each. I'd cut time from London (which you suggested 4 nights) or Rome/Venice (which you suggested 6 nights). Cut a day from each and then you'd have 3 days in Barcelona and 3 in Madrid.

Not ideal or perfect.....As far as "doable" - the original itinerary was doable but non-stop travel...

Cathies: We really don't disagree. The reasons I put the extra night in London were 1) it is HUGE and the major sites are more spread out than any of the other cities, and 2) the first stopover is where the jet lag will bite you and one usually needs an extra day or to to clear the cobwebs.

If it was my trip I'd skip Madrid - but since it is a given there is really no way to omit it. I love Venice and <i>could</i> drop Rome, but for a first timer to Italy Rome is probably a must.

Perfect world - this is a 3.5 to 4 week trip :) (London a week, Rome a week, Venice 4 days, Barcelona / Madrid split 8-ish days.)

Congratulations on listening to us - not everyone does!

Note that you could take the Eurostar to Paris and a night train on to Venice. You'd leave London at 14:31 and arrive in Venice at 9:34. See http://www.seat61.com/Italy.htm for details. That page also has info on going via Switzerland just for a look at the scenery - you'd overnight in Zurich and reach Venice via Milan early afternoon.

There used to be a good night train from Milan to Barcelona but it doesn't seem to be running any more, so you'd have to fly that leg. See whichbudget.com and skyscaner.ner for cheap flights.

I, too, could skip Rome, but loved Venice. Of course, I could skip Spain, too, in favor of Portugal, but it's not my trip

I am taking all of this wonderful feedback and I created another itinerary. I think I am getting much closer to the mark. Please tell me what you think!
London 6th-jet lag recovery.
London 3 days (7,8,9)
Travel to Venice on 6:00am flight, arrive in Venice on the 10th, Venice Day 1
Venice (10, 11, 12)
13th, travel to Rome
Rome (13, 14, 15)
Travel to Barcelona on 8:30am flight, arrive in Barcelona 16th, Day 1
Barcelona (16th, 17th, 18th)
Travel to Madrid on the 19th early and fly home.

I know this plan has made me sacrifice my time in Madrid but I think it won't be the last time I go there. France just had too much to see so I will have to save that for another trip. Is this still cutting it way to close? Or have I found a realistic game plan?

You guys are pretty incredible! I can't thank you enough!

By the way skyscanner is an amazing tool!

This is quite a bit better! Just be prepared to wake up very, very early for that 6 am flight. Leave time to get to airport, get thru security, etc. Have fun!

Yes, where does the London-Venice flight leave from?

You need to be very careful with night trains.

There are NO night trains between some of thee cities. And some you can get from one to another overnight - but only by chaing trains 2 or 3 times in the middle of hte night.

Also, compartments on these trains tend to sell out early, you will be sharing with strangers (unless you pay for all berths) and they tend to be very expensive. I can;t comment on comfort or if you can sleep on a train - which will have stops - even if you don;t have to change.

IMHO not something I would contemplate unless I knew I could sleep on trains and not pull into a town exhausted and needing a nap before doing/seeing anything.

I think you would find a slower paced trip to be much more fulfilling - and worth the significant time, energy and money you are spending on it.

nyt - the OP is now talking about flying, and has already reduced the itinerary. Perhaps you didn't read her last post?

There is nothing wrong with sharing a couchette or sleeping compartment with strangers. It may not be what you do on North American trains (what few there are) but it is perfectly normal in Europe and Asia.

Much better and totally doable - quick study :)

But I would be concerned about an 0600 flight out of London (which airport?). Whichever airport - you would have to be at the airport by 0430, 0500 at the latest. And if it is one of the discount carriers out of Gatwick or Stansted even earlier because they have very strict check in requirements. If you are staying in central London it will take about an hour to get any of the airports - so basically - there is no reason to go to bed that night :)

So - a flight that early might be difficult . . .

Much better - good job, curiously_inspired !

Just a few comments -

As others have noted, it is worth thinking about alternatives to your VERY early departures.

Have you already booked your flight home from Madrid? Personally, I hate to arrive in the city from which I plan to fly home on the day of the flight - there are just too many things than can go wrong! So you might want to consider spending a night in Madrid. (Or maybe you already are planning on that? I'm having trouble tracking that part of your trip.)

And if you are spending a night in Madrid, well, you might want to spend a few days there, instead of one of your other destinations. Just a thought!

I don't know what your priorities are in any of these places, but do note that many places will be closed on at least one day of the week, often Monday and/or part of Sunday. So if there are particular things you want to see, check the opening hours.

And do, please, invest in at least one (if not more) good guide books! You'll learn about things you never even knew to ask!

You have truly improved your plans and should have a great trip, no matter what you decide from this point on. Enjoy!

For a 6am flight out of a London airport you will likely need to pay for a driver as the trains likely won't be running...or allocate time for a night bus. You need to leave time to get through check-in and security, plus about an hour to get to the airport...

We use www.justairports.com for our early morning flights...

Enjoy!

Yeah, just be prepared about those early morning flights. They are doable but not easy. For a six o'clock flight that means they will start boarding at 5:15 so you'll need to be at the airport by 4:30. There are lines at security and check in even at that hour. Hopefully you won't be checking a bag (look at the airlines websites carefully to see weight and size and # of bag restrictions for carry on). If you don't have to check a bag you can usually check in on line and print your boarding pass and therefore skip that line. Some airlines (easyjet) let you print your boarding pass 30 days ahead so you can usually do it at home. But even for the ones that only let you do it 24 hours ahead, most hotels will let you use their printer to print boarding passes, and if not there are kiosks at the airports where you can (sometimes) do this. But still, best to know all this ahead of time.

For transportation to the airport check the various public trans options, but I have in more than one case found I needed to take a taxi. Once from Rome I had a flight that cost €14 but the taxi to the airport from central Rome was €60. Still worth it, just be prepared.

And I agree with the person who said it's risky to arrive in the city you are departing from (Madrid) on the same day. What if the train from Barcelona is late, or if there is a strike that day, etc. Think how much a missed transatlantic flight is gong to cost.

I would cut out a day from Venice and add it to arrive in Madrid the night before your flight, rather than the same day, echoing others who say that is too risky.

Venice is doable in two days, and Madrid is skippable, at least compared to the other cities, IMO, and this would give you a little extra time in Barcelona, where you really could use more time. That is a city where you will not only want to walk, but to take the time to tour inside the amazing Gaudi buildings and other interesting sites!

Ah, yes...the correct word is adapter not converter. My apologies. Should cost you less than 5 bucks.

Agree with cutting one day from Venice. I love Venice and certainly enjoyed my five days there, but you can "get" it more easily than the other cities as long as you make sure you enjoy at least one night righting the vaporettos and enjoying the dancing in St. Mark's square.

I also think that arriving night before for your flight out is essential.

My compliments on your trip editing, by the way. You really have been thinking this out.

Better I suppose, but on a first trip to Europe you'll sacrifice Paris?
And 3 days in Venice is too much.

The flight from London was out of LGW, after talking to you guys I think I will opt out for the 6:00am flight and get a 8:25 flight. I really like the idea of cutting time in Venice for more time in Barcelona, that will give me more wiggle room for Madrid as well. We fly out of Madrid on the 20th and I want to arrive there early on the 19th and if I can and spend the last day enjoying some of the festivities before I depart.

It was so hard to sacrifice Paris, however I think I will be back to travel there, giving Paris 2 days really felt like I shortchanged it, when I can just do 2 days in Venice and really get the experience that I am looking for. It was so very hard to get rid of but what can I say? My heart went to Italy!

Is it better to put that extra day in Barcelona or Rome or even London?

You guys have really opened my eyes and the planning has actually become exciting and fun! I cant thank you enough for all of your help! You guys have truly saved my trip in more ways than one!

Thank you!!!

It looks like OP's new and improved plan has an April 19 Madrid arrival and April 20 departure, so that's OK - arrival is day before the international flight.

Ten Fodorites will have a dozen opinions on what to cut out on a trip like this, but it certainly seems a shame to skip Paris.

My $0.02 is to cut out one of the Italian cities and put Paris back in. Then you've got 4 countries, 4 cites, sweet. I'd shockingly vote for Venice over Rome, just because Venice is so unique (well, aren't they all), but I hate to see Paris drop off.

Have fun with your planning.