Impulse decisions - now what?
 

So, I was having dinner with some friends last night and someone brought up the point that airfares were likely to skyrocket with fuel prices being so high. I made the only rational decision I could - I went home and started looking at airfares, saw a relatively inexpensive direct flight to Paris... and apparently in 5 months I will back in Europe for the first time in 5 and a half years. :) .

This has created a dilemma (admittedly, a fairly happy one), I will be in Europe for 14 days (not counting travel to/from Europe) and I have no itinerary and no real plan. My initial thoughts were:

1. Two (possibly three ) nights in Paris - I have been to Paris before, but I always feel safer in making connecting travel plans that assume the flight to Paris will not be on time. Also, there are any number of things I would be happy to see again.
2. 5 nights in Avignon
3. 6 nights in Nice (or somewhere Nice adjacent with good access to the public transportation system for day trips)
4. 1 night in Paris (the flight back is in the morning)

My questions at the moment are:
1. Mid-late October in Provence without a car. How feasible is visiting there so late in the season, (I know the lack of a car will limit me in some ways, but are the limitations imposed by not having a car so great to make it not worth going there).
2. My understanding is the off season can be pretty quiet in Southern France. Where does the second half of October fit, i.e. still within shoulder season with most things are still open, or into the off season, with more limited options.
3. Is there a good candidate for a smaller (but still public transport convenient) place to stay around Nice?

Any guidance you can provide would be appreciated.

PS It is kind of exciting to be planning again, particularly since there is nothing fixed other than the flights. I have the beginnings of a plan, but as long as I am back at CDG 15 days after I arrive, I could do ANYTHING!

Glen

Well, I for one congratulate you on your excellent, impulsive response. 😎👍 just go for it.

I leave it to others to recommend a small village near Nice, but can say that we spent a week in an apartment in Nice itself and took trains and buses all around very easily. The Villa Ephrissi de Rothschild, Villa Kerylos, St Paul de Venice and the Foundation Maeght, the Chagall museum right in Nice - so much to do.

Life is short, have a blast!

I have to admit that I get totally bored with the Mediterranean coast off season. Have you ever seen Lille, Strasbourg, Nancy, Metz in the autumn? All of those cities are less than two hours from Paris by train.

I had been leaning South for climate related reasons, but my travel in France has been limited to Paris, Bordeaux, Carcassonne and Toulouse (well, and St. Jean Pied de Porte), so going East is another option to consider.

Thanks!

While the south usually has better weather, it is interesting to note that it was colder and wetter in the south last winter while the north sailed along with dry and mild weather. Of course this is less likely in the autumn, but generally the weather can be quite fine in the north until November. Just the fact that collective heating is generally not authorized until November 1st can provide a clue to conditions. You're not planning of spending time on the beach, I hope. Frankly, I love the autumn colors in the Vosges (but you do not plan to drive, so okay.)

My experience is that France in October, even mid or late October, is great, and along with mid to late September is my favorite time to be in France. I especially enjoyed seeing the grape vineyards turn orange and gold in the south. And, I have always felt the advantages of traveling in the fall far outweighed the disadvantages. Not having a car can be problematic in Provence, but if you base in a relatively large city, like Avignon, I believe you can take day trips to the surrounding areas either using local buses or tours. We've always rented a car and stayed in St. Remy, near Avignon. Kerouac recommended several cities in the north, among them Strasbourg Though we've been there a few times, never in the autumn. I would think, though, it would also be an excellent base for part of your trip. Of course, you should expect some rain and chilly weather wherever you decide to go, north or south.

seeing grapes in the vines in October or mid October must be getting pretty rare nowadays, we see most of the southern harvest in by the end of August and only late harvests in the north coming in October or November (say Alsace), but for sure those vines that have not had their leaves taken off to ease the harvest will be colour changing.

I tend towards the north in the spring and autumn, once away from the tourist hot spots in the south the place seems to close up, as you get beyond September and little villages I know well will not have many people on the street until Christmas festivals begin. Remember there are also some lovely rivers and canals to walk beside, or hire a bike and get out on quiet country roads/canal sides or defunct railway lines.

Avignon, use trains, buses, feet or even go walking with donkeys (though really that is further west). Avignon to Arles for example. For the Camargue (interesting times for bird watchers as northern birds settle prior to flying to Africa) then a guide is th best idea.

You are correct, bilbo. The grape harvests in most recent years have been almost a month earlier than in the past.

No, I am definitely not a beach person. :) I figured Nice to have somewhat warmer temperatures (in October, the average is 20-21 degrees, which is pretty much right in my comfort sweet spot. However, in looking North, Strasbourg is only 4-5 degrees colder, which is manageable.

I am still thinking to get down to Nice. I have heard good things about the public transportation infrastructure, and think I should be able see a fair bit while I am there.
However, while Avignon is still an option, I am thinking somewhere East as a base might work as well. If I stay in, let us say Strasbourg, for a 4-5 days, I could fly to Nice or take a train to Nice, stopping for a couple of nights in Lyons (haven't been, and it would break up what would otherwise a very long train ride). Another virtue of this plan, is that because Strasbourg is less than 2 hours from Paris by train (and my flight lands in Paris at 8:00 AM ish) I could probably dispense with the stop in Paris at the beginning of the trip. I may very end spending a couple of days in Paris anyway, but I could add those at the end of the trip and thus save myself one checking into/out of a hotel.

Ok, off to research how I might allocate my time in the Strasbourg area and determine the best option for where to stay in Nice. Once I fleshed out the draft itineraries for both the Avignon and Strasbourg, I will be a position to make a more informed decision :) .

The bicycle, bus and train network around Avignon should give you plenty of options for day trips.

Lyon has the advantage of so many indoor attractions (provided you like food and museums) that inclement weather need not stop you from having fun.

Bordeaux has good public transport, good bike paths and a massive shopping area ( largest in Europe they claim)

I am not a fan of Nice or Avignon, so anywhere else you choose would be an upgrade. As I and others have remarked already on Fodors, Aix is so pretty and fascinating itself. Also, any decent sized place in France will have an active tourist office to help you in advance or on the spot. Limoges, for example, has a free program of greeters who can take you around and they organize excursions. You can start by contacting the tourist office by email. Public trains and buses aren't the only way to get around.

I can't say I know what the situation is with covid, so you'll have to ask specifically.

Le Puy-en-Velay is one of my favorite destinations in France/Europe, and I could spend a lot of time there. Really, there are so many interesting touristic towns in France. It's easy to spend a few days in any of them.

I am a fan of Le Puy-en-Velay as well.

I guess I'd say you might want to talk about what you want to do rather than focusing on where you want to do it. Walks and hikes? Museums and cultural sites? Food? Cycling? Photography?

Alsace can be beautiful in the autumn, as could Savoy, with snow creeping down the mountainsides, perhaps viewed from someplace like Annecy. I've spent some time in late autumn/winter in Aigues-Mortes at the edge of the Camargue; pretty sleepy then but the weight of history is over the top. Photographer's paradise. White horses and flamingos.

But that's me - what do you like to do?

We have spent extended times off season in both Bordeaux and Toulouse. and both we were great-not necessarily sunny and warm, but both definitely not "snow and cold" type winter weather.

Given the places you have already visited, you might consider taking the TGV from Paris to Strasbourg since it is only 1h45 minutes and then take the TGV from there, if you like train travel, to either (or both) Dijon and Lyon, both lovely cities. The train is about 2h15 from Strasbourg to Dijon and then just under an hour and a half to Lyon. If you are a foodie, Lyon is an amazing town for food! From there the train passes down through Avignon to Nice in about 4h30. You may not want to explore all those places in the limited time you have, but they are all great options. IMO, if you want to explore Provence, it is tough without a car, but you could also be pretty happy just spending time in either Aix-en-Provence or Avignon for some days, maybe taking day tours to some of the other village.

That's a valid point. See how long it has been since I travelled, I can't even compose a reasonable question.

My primary interests are
1. History & Architecture
2. Art - mostly pre-impressionist, but the lack of interest in modern art comes with some pretty big exceptions: Monet, pointillism (no big deal if you never heard of it, I don't think it ever really caught on), plus one of the main reasons I want to get to NIce is the Chagall Museum.
3.. Scenery and nature- this is a tricky one for me. I used to love to hike/walk long distances but in recent years balance/nobility issues have significantly compromised my ability to walk any distance further than 2-3 km (and any kind of uneven trail surface is just an accident waiting to happen). For example, as far as I can see, the shuttle bus from Verdun out to the various WW1 sites stops running at the end of September. In the old days, I would have taken a taxi to the furthest site out and walked back to Verdun, That 14 km walk is no long within my capabilities. :(


Thanks for all the feedback folks. The head East to Alsace (my initial look at Alsace definitely grabbed my interest) and then turn South is still the current plan, but thanks to the suggestions I have other ideas floating around in my head.
Anyway, I think I need to step back, and go cover to cover through a guidebook for France and see if I can't come up with a list of top priority things I want to see/do and work it out from there. I doubt I will be looking to book places to stay until mid-June or so, so I have some time.

I'll be back. :)

I think there are some pointillist works in the Kröller-Müller museum in the Hoge Veluwe in the Netherlands. Away from your mark, but a worthwhile museum.

Lavandula

Probably not this trip, but good to know all the same.

Though, I could head West, pick up the Normandy D-day sites and Bayeaux and Mont. St Michel, then head North to Hoge Veluwe and then turn east and add a new country (Luxembourg) to my visited list... no, that way lies madness. Between 2009 and 2017, I spent about 7 months visiting Europe, and there is still so much I haven't seen.

Hm, it's a bit ambitious, probably a lot of driving. With limited time perhaps stick to your original plan. The museum will still be there for your next trip. I have a print of Before Noon by Theo van Rysselberghe which I bought there about 35 years ago. It hung in my parents' house for a long time, but now it's mine and I haven't got the right location for it yet. Good luck in your journey-planning!

Lavandula

If ever you were to base yourself in Metz for a few days, it is the central point of the MetroLor TER commuter train line with Luxembourg to the north and Nancy to the south, both no more than half an hour away. And it's very easy to continue to Strasbourg from either Nancy or Metz (which has the Metz Pompidou Center next to the train station).

Can we circle back for a minute on the car question? Is renting a car, at least for part of the trip, out of the question? I'm thinking that in areas like Alsace or Normandy (or Provence for that matter) at that time of year, a car can provide protection from the elements as much as it can provide access to villages or sites that are otherwise hard to reach by public transport.

Luxembourg is one of the few Western/Central European countries I haven't been to (the others are all micro-states - well, unless you count Iceland), so that is a useful bit of information to add the mix.

For better or for worse, I let my driver's licence expire almost 30 years ago. Honestly, for my day to day life, I never missed it, and most of my travel has been to larger cities, where a car is at best unnecessary and at worst an expensive nuisance. I acknowledge it is inconvenient for places like Provence or the Loire Valley though.

Luxembourg is quite a schlep by train from Paris or Brussels (figure on 2 - 3 hours from Paris, 3 - 4 hours from Brussels), but fairly close to Trier (Germany). If you go there, factor that into your planning (day trips for instance are almost unviable without a car).

Lavandula

It's hard, isn't it, Glenmd, when there is literally not limit to what you can choose to do? But having come new to this thread I think that the two things you seem to really want to do are to spend a few days in Paris, and to go south to Nice. And your reasons for wanting to do that really haven't changed. Then the idea of going to Strasbourg appealed and actually fitted in well with your arrival in Paris and not wanting to br locked into too long a journey on your first day. So the only other question is really if you want to try to fit in somewhere else eg Lyon on your way back to Paris.

There are no right or wrong decisions here, just what you think most appeals and whether you are a person who likes to linger in one place, or to see a variety of different ones. Fortunately you still have time before you would need to book the trains to get the best rates.

Luxembourg is less than two hours from Paris by TGV, not at all 2-3 hours. One interesting thing to note is that Luxembourg has made all public transportation within the country 100% free -- trains, buses, funiculars and trams (since March 1st, 2020).

September this year I'm basing myself in Nimes. It has great transport connections, both bus and train, and some wonderful things to see in the town itself. I was there 30 years ago and looking forward to returning.

You do not have to just stay in France. There are cheap flights to many other cities in Europe.

This seems like a very sensible idea. :) I am going to spend the long weekend (in Canada, this weekend is a 3 day one) evaluating my options, with an eye to planning two trips.
1) This years, which, barring a surprise change of heart, I expect to follow the East from Paris, then South to the Nice area and ending in Paris.
2) Next years, which will be 3 weeks in length and occur at the tail end of high season, starting in very late August early September. It will pick up the areas that either don't fit geographically with the first trip, or are, for someone without a car, better planned when more tours/tourist shuttles are running. Early candidates would include Provence, the Loire Valley, Normandy and possibly Burgundy.

Anyway, we will see what my weekend of research brings me. I hope to emerge with a very crude plan for each day (i.e. one day might be going to Luxembourg from Metz, but no details as to what I will see exactly - other than to confirm there is enough there to see to warrant the trip)

Day trips from Trier... bus system is good and the trains go roughly up and down the Mosel/Moselle.

Oh, I know. :) But the more I look at France, the more I realize I have neglected it compared to say Italy or Spain.

HI Glen,
I absolutely love the area around Nice, and the public transportation in the area is wonderful. In the past I have based our holidays just out of Nice, my favorites are Villefranche-sur-Mer, St Jean Cap Ferrat, and vieil Antbes. All beautiful, although each with a slightly different feel. There are so many day trips to do in the area: for example take a bus to Eze Village and dine in one of their delightful restaurants, the view is spectacular, take a train to Monaco, there are gorgeous walks (or part of the walks) around the sea front at Cap Ferrat or Antibes, St Paul de Vence is worth a visit, or just simply roaming around the old pedestrian streets of old NIce. You can take a boat tour from Nice to see the coast from a different perspective (and see all the beautiful mansions from the water). Enjoy your trip to France! We have decided to go in September as well and also have an open slate (which is why I am reading your thread!)

OK, I have a semi-finished plan (not all the details, but enough)

3 nights in Metz (Includes trips to Nancy and Luxembourg)
3 nights in Colmar (including trips to Strasbourg and Riquewihr)
5 nights in Antibes (includes time in Nice, Eze, Monaco, Villefranche-sur-Mer, possibly the walk in Cap Ferrat (if I am up to to it) Also, I will look into the boat tour that Waterloo12 mentioned)
4 nights in Paris either day trips (Reims, Chatres, Giverny among others) or spend the days revisiting my favourite parts of Paris (though this can be challenging about where to draw the line. I could probably skip the Eiffel Tower and Sacre-Coeur, but everything else I saw previously would stay on my list if I had time. In any event, St-Chapelle and my obligatory visit to where the repairs to Notre Dame continue (even if the entire structure is covered in scaffolding such that you can’t see any of it, I will still go and consider it time well spent))
I am still a little blurry on the Antibes/Nice question. I am strongly leaning towards Antibes (the 25 minute x 2 commute) is an acceptable price to pay for staying somewhere smaller.) I did notice, that whenever I do a search on the SNCF website for a train route that departs from Antibes, it adds 21 minutes of walking time to trip length. Are they trying to tell my something? The location of the station looks pretty central to me. The other question I have about the Antibes to Nice train is how busy is it likely to be in October. I assume the tourist numbers will be down, but there still could be a heathly number of commuters headed into Nice each day.

I suggest reversing your itinerary. Most of your stay would still be in the temperate south. I would fly into Nice or Marseille to start with, probably requiring a transfer through a gateway airport, but that first day will be diminished by jet lag anyhow. A couple of days was all I needed in Nice and the Riviera is, for me, a matter of curiosity. Marseille is more to my taste, a slow train ride to the west. I enjoy the smaller locations in its vicinity, especially Avignon. Then north by train. Strasbourg is indeed intriguing enough for a couple of days, but a long haul from the south. It has good train connections to Charles de Gaulle, if that's your return departure port.

You probably know that the trans-Atlantic flights, including the extension to Nice or Marseille, can be arranged on a single itinerary using a multi-destination search function. Saves time, and sometimes money.

Even France has "Indian Summer" in October, so I would absolutely not worry about the weather. There are no guarantees, but that includes no guarantee that the weather will be better in the south. More and more often, northern France unexpectedly has better weather than southern France except for people who love extreme heat in the heart of summer.

I don't know what you are doing with the SNCF website, saying it adds "walking time". It must be you are picking some location that isn't a train station, I really don't know, as it generally only does that if you are trying to connect from metro to train or something. I just put in "Antibes (toutes gares)" to "Nice (toutes gares)" and it doesn't show any walking time. If you pick a departure point some other address within Antibes, not the station, it adds walk time and even sitting waiting around on a bench time. So you aren't selecting just to look for train routes, you need to select the train station as departure point. You have to kind of go out of your way to do that, also, as the train station list comes up first with a heading Gares & Stations and then other points within the city are at the bottom of the page under the heading "Adresses" (what appears when you start typing "Antibes" into the search box). You must be picking even a different location within Antibes than the central as it only estimates a 12 min walk when you do that, although it does give you 9 min boarding/waiting time but it is clearly marked as walking (marche) versus embarquement time.

Well, the flight to Paris is already booked and is not easily changed (I don't think I am allowed to change the final destination for example). Indeed, that is what started this thread in the first place. However, I am flying to Paris with AirFrance, so maybe I can reach out to them and see if I get an extension to Nice on the same ticket (so I would be protected in the event of delays), that might might save me a long train trip (I like traveling by train, but it is almost 6 hours from Antibes to Paris). Thanks for the suggestion.

It is a good principle to be in the city from which you plan to fly home the night before the flight. Too much can go wrong with train schedules. Ending in Paris works well.

Colmar to Antibes will be another long day of travel. Would you break it up with an overnight anywhere?

I tried a few ways to send your train down the more interesting ride through Sisteron etc. Nope, though there might be bus options,

When I first looked at it, I had thought about stopping in Lyon along the way for 2 nights, but while I am sure there are things to see in and around Lyon, it really wasn't grabbing me as the best investment of two nights. However, subsequent developments have removed the 9 hours on a train problem. :) (See my next post).

OK, we have finalized an itinerary:
Fly to Nice directly on the first day - this was something I was initially reluctant to do, but:
1. As Southam pointed out, it does make more logistical sense
2. I have flown to Europe and back 9 times, and only once has a flight been more than an hour late (and that was 5 days late, which would obliterate any plan I make anyway)
3. I have nearly 5 hours as a layover in Paris, which should be enough to cover any non-disaster related delay. (and both flights are with AirFrance.

4 nights Antibes
4 nights in Provence (almost certainly based in Arles) I did note the recommendations for Nimes and Aix-en-Provence, however neither were logistically as good without a car.. And as for Avignon (my initial idea for a base... well, in addition to the feedback here, I have a friend who has been to Provence 5 or 6 times. When I indicated that I was thinking of using Avignon as a base, she looked at me as if I was purposing we go out and behead puppies. :) She suggested Arles.
3 nights in Colmar
3 nights in Metz
1 night Paris Airport.

Thanks to everyone who offered advice, particularly to kerouac, for suggesting the Alsace/Lorriane regions and Southam, for pointing out that flying to Nice to start would help (for the record, it saved about 7 hours of train travel)

On to the next stage, accomodation hunting!

Glen