I'm I crazy?
 

My wife and I have traveled to Europe five times in the last 7 years. Never had a major problem. We have been asked to take a group of 15 High School Seniors. We have absolute freedom in planning the trip. What advice can you give on booking group discount(Youth) discounts on airfare, booking a block of Hotel rooms train travel, etc.? Please keep in mind these students will be funding their share of the trip. We live in a rural area and most have been less than 200 miles from home! Any help will be greatly appreciated.

I don't have any knowledge of booking youth/group discounts, but for that large of group I'd pick a tour agency or a travel agent to handle the logistics and touring agendas.

Rick Steves has some interesting options:
http://tours.ricksteves.com/tours08/home.cfm

Good luck on your planning!

Hi Danny,

>We have been asked to take a group of 15 High School Seniors.<

You are out of your ever-loving mind to even consider it.

However:

Everyone under 19 needs a letter signed by both parents giving you permission to take the minor out of the US.

You also need a limited power of attorney (just another permission letter) allowing you to act "in loco parentis" (as the parent) for medical emergencies and any other incidents that may arise (bailing them out of jail).

You and your wife are not enough chaperones for 15 kids. You need another couple.

You also need another couple to prevent you from going mad.

Do not make any reservations or bookings until you have a hefty, non-refundable deposit from each kid and the letters from the parents.

Have you considered just booking them onto a student tour? For example, google <EF Tours>

Also enter <student tour> in the "search this forum" box.

Hope this helps.

((I))

Hi above advice is excellent, especially ira's details.
You need to look into insurance liability issues as well--traveling at one's own risk, not YOUR risk or the school's risk.
No need to reinvent the wheel, lots of agencies specialize in organizing group trips, including student trips. They will offer a standard tour with a menu of a few options, they can include meals or not, train tickets, museum passes, etc. they can give you a menu based on various budget levels. Sometimes group leaders can travel for free if the group reaches a designated size. That may help you recruit additional chaperones. They may also throw in extras like totebags and luggage tags for the group, maps,etc.
If they were older you could be more creative in putting your own trip together, but I think for a first time this would be the way to go. If you live off the beaten track, don't forget to consider the logistics of getting everyone to and from the nearest airport hub.

PS,

You will also want a letter, signed by the parents and the youths, listing the rules and specifying that any infraction thereof could result in said youths being sent home forthwith at their parent's expense.

Remember, you will be held responsible for whatever happens that makes anyone the least bit unhappy.

So, you have to have several meetings of the group:

1. Set the rough itinerary

2. Assign task groups to work on travel arrangements, the hotels, sight seeing, restos, and free-time in each venue.

You will have to allow them time by themselves each day and evening.

This is when you need the other couple. The four of you can go somewhere and worry together.

((I))

Thanks for the quick responses. Knew I could get good advice here. Didn't mean to imply that we would be the ONLY crazy adults. Got other parents that will go once we establish that we can afford to go. We are looking to fly into Milan and using that as abase for four days. We can do Rome,Venice Cinque Terra and Southern ALps from there. Then to Paris as a base and finally fly back from there. I probably would be better to hire an travel agency, but to me this is the "good" sane part of the trip. I like to plan
Thanks again

PPS,

You might need a travel agent to arrange discount airfare.

However call the airlines first.

Also check out www.1800flyeurope.com. You can call them and see what can be done.

Hi D,

> fly into Milan and using that as abase for four days. We can do Rome,Venice Cinque Terra and Southern ALps from there.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

How to put this courteously, tactfully and nicely.

You **really are** out of your mind. :)

From Milan it is 4:40 - 5 hr to Rome, 3 hr to La Spezia, 3 hr to Venice.

How long are you planning to be in Paris?

((I))

If you have 15 seniors interested, it's likely that only 6 or so will actually come up with the money. I wouldn't book until I had all of the money up front or arrange a way for each to pay their own. You can book group airfare through any of the airlines. They all have a group contact desks/web pages(some for 8+ others require 10+).

You can arrange a private tour for your group only with most of the student tour companies. I would not use EF. CHA is much better for not much difference in price.

It's all very well to state you will send someone home at the parents expense, but can you actually make that happen? I really doubt it unless they provide you with access to their credit cards (not likely).

Acceptable student tour companies(to me):
higher end - www.acis.com or www.netc.com

middle range - www.cha-tours.com or www.passports.com

No, you can't do Rome, Cinque Terre, etc. using Milan as a base. It's just not remotely practical.

>>We have been asked to take a group of 15 High School Seniors.<<

Will the person who did the asking also be going on the trip? ;-)

You are truly awesome to consider such a responsibility. In my job I take children on summer day trips - never overnight, never out of country, and always with the help of two or three other trained adult supervisors. It's a lot of fun, but also can be very tiring. Have at least two other adult couples with you, so you can take turns going off on your own for a break from the responsibility.

I have traveled to Europe for 10 years with student groups but always with CHA.

I admire your endeavor but I would never do it with that many people. It's nice having a travel company (like CHA) available for things that don't go as planned.

We couldn't connect in NY once due to weather and instead were diverted to another town, where we spent the night. Somehow CHA knew we were going to miss our flight and had already re-scheduled our flight out the next day before we had even landed in the city we were diverted to.

A student in our group (but not one of mine) broke his arm rough-housing. Our CHA tour guide spent the better part of a day helping him get the surgery he needed in a hospital in Rome.

One of my students left his passport at a bank in Patras, Greece, My student didn't discover it was missing until we got to Athens. Our CHA guide drove his own car from Athens to Patras and back to retrieve the passport (where the local Greek teller was holding it hostage).

Also, if hotels are substandard or if something goes wrong with the booking, can you get sued by the students or their parents? What if one of your female students gets pregnant after a brief liaison with a local Italian male? (this happened on a trip a friend of mine was chaperoning). I know the pregnancy can't reasonably be blamed on you. But whom do you suppose the parents would hold accountable? How about infected tatoos? (I have a no tattoo and piercing rule but rules seem to be ignored at times.) Traveling with teens is a joy (really!) but it can be an adventure in ways you weren't expecting.

And so on. . .

I have thought about enterprises similar to yours (though with smaller groups) and then my wife gives me a dope slap to bring me back to my senses.

15 rookie travelers under the age of 20 and only 4 chaperones?

I would say you need a minimum of 6!
Otherwise you are just asking for trouble.

I have one big question for you:
Just how do you propose to keep the boys and girls separated? Let's just say that the urge to merge can be overwhelming.

I can see some over heated male rappelling down the side of the hotel using two bedsheets for a rope.

I was in a hotel in DC two years ago that hosted the senior trip. The boys were on one floor and the girls were another, with all roolms on the same dead end hallway. There was a security guard seated in each of the two areas!!

The rule was: Nobody in the hallway after 10 PM unless there is an emergency!

You say you have been to Europe 5 times and never had a major problem. If you go off with 15 seniors and just you two as chaperones, I think your no problem record will be smashed to quark-sized pieces with no gluons to help.

I may be wrong on this aspect of your situation, but will hotels in Europe allow a large number of teen agers to stay?

<We are looking to fly into Milan and using that as abase for four days. We can do Rome,Venice Cinque Terra and Southern ALps from there>

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely NO sense at all. You cannot base in Milan and do day trips to Rome or to the Cinque Terra. Perhaps Venice as it is the shortest, at a 3 hour train ride each way... but still 6 hours on the train for a few hours in Venice? You REALLY need to rethink this entire concept of a "base" in Milan.

I took 13 <b><u>adult</u></b> friends to the UK for 2 weeks. Adults - and not 20-somethings but 30-ish to 75-ish. The UK - so no language issues. No - &quot;responsibility&quot; issues since they were all adults . . . . . and STILL there were some major problems. It was for the most part, great fun. But a couple of these &quot;adults&quot; still don't speak to each other 8 years later (!)

15 novice travelers - 4 chaperones - Italy and Paris -- OH YEAH, I can read the headlines now :)

Contact one of the student tour agencies mentioned above - and you just go along as one of the <u>several</u> chaperones.

(And no - Milan is not at all a practical base for the places you plan)

Kudos to you and your wife for helping provide what can be a mind expanding experience for these kids. That said, DO NOT attempt to do it yourself. Life will be easier for all if a third party (especially one with knowledge, experience and a network of contacts) handles arrangements. In the distant past have done arrangements for domestic group travel with adults. It was a royal PIA and after once or twice I learned my lesson. Companies that arrange group travel earn their money.

Something else you have probably not thought of. 15 eighteen year olds who are coming from a country where they are not legally allowd to drink. They will suddenly be turned loose in countries where they can drink all they want with no legal restrictions. No matter who these kids are or what their usual behaviors are, I can see the distinct possibility of drunk, obnoxious, and disorderly behavior.

You would need very strict guidelines about this, including a signed agreement stating something to the effect that anyone who violates the alcohol guidelines will be put on the next plane home. The parents would have to foot the bill for the last minute flight on top of the expenses they had already promised to pay.

Europeans kids go on trips like this all the time, accompanied by teachers.
My sons went to Paris and to Florence on school trips. They were 15 at the time. There was one teacher to every 6 kids. Mixed groups. There are hotels that cater specifically to this sort of group in both cities. No need for guards or separate floors. Treat them like young responsible adults and they will behave as such.
They were given a certain amount of freedom there, allowed to travel the Metro in groups without a teacher present. They were given a list of things to find during the day, and questions to answer about them. A meetup point was always arranged. They went on organised trips by bus also, to Versailles, to San Gimingano, a vineyard (and they tasted the wine - very nice it was too from the bottle that came home for us). They never lost anyone, there was no hanky-panky, a good time was had by all.
I see no reason why it wouldn't work with a group of American teenagers.

Danny~ I think the idea of contacting a company that specializes in student tour groups (as recommended by several experienced posters above) is the reasonable very first thing to do. See if your group can afford to do the trip. You go along as chaperones. They know how to plan the trip, as they do it all the time.

You are needlessly reinventing the wheel and I don't think you have the experience required to pull it off, quite frankly, because of what you've said like basing in Milan to see all of Italy. I'm no expert, but this is so obviously not going to work.

Danny 3643:

Do you get the sense that people are yelling at you?

hetismij: I agree - if this was a European parent - the question would not even come up.

But a couple of major differences I see:

These are American kids who live in a very rural area. My guess most have <u>never</u> been on ground public transport of any kind other than perhaps school buses. It sounds like some haven't even been on a plane.

Never on a metro/tube/subway or even a city bus. Probably, some have never even to a US big city like New York, Chicago or San Francisco.

If they were a group of Newcastle kids going to Paris and Rome - or Lyon kids going to London and Edinburgh - no problems (well no major ones).

But kids from a rural US location and w/ the major differences in how drinking is handled. . . .

I don't mean to say these kids are terrors or anything of the sort. It is just an entirely different culture. Plus being HS seniors means they can be anywhere from 16 to 19 - mostly 17 and 18.

Before you do this I would try to determine/clarify everyone's expectations.

Assuming they;re high school seniors they are free agents and you are not accepting any responsibility for them - other than travel arrangements. (Some parents may be expecting you to act in loco parentis - and to do that you would need a couple of more adults at least - and also your head examined.)

In europe these kids are adults and can come/go, drink/not and do essentially anything they want at all hours. Your first job is to get that across to whoever will be paying for the trips. I would also have an attorney draw up a simple document for signature by each kid (or parent if under 18) freeing you of any responsibility for their actions. (The same way colleges do for students under 18 - so they can't be sued for students run amok.)

First, you need to put together a basic itinerary. then contact group sales at the airlines that go to the first/last cities - and see if they will offer a discount.

As for hotels - I think you will have trouble getting a lot of hotels to take a group like that - never mind give you a discount. (They're worried about parties and damages.) You might to consider hostels instead - since many B&amp;Bs/pensions will be too small for your group.

You could contact local travel agents - but since I assume you want to travel budget - you need to be prepared to pay them fees for everything they do for you (budget hotels don;t pay commissions to travel agents the way upscale hotels do).

I would assume that a mixed group of over 18 and under 18 year olds is not much fun.

The over 18yo can do whatever they want (No US &quot;in loco parentis&quot; document lets you tell an 18yo in Italy what to do). They are adults like you. Love it or hate it, it's the law.

The under 18yo are your responsibility if you have the correct papers from their parents.

But: The first group goes out partying all night (or not), while you play Scrabble with the &quot;kids&quot;? I doubt that this will be the source of lots a fun, but more the source of many discussions.. why can they do what we can't do.. and so on.

By the way, drinking age is 16 for beer and wine, so you should face that issue, especially if more puritan-minded parents expect you to keep their kids acting like saints.

Age of consent for sex is 14 in Italy, unless Wikipedia errs on that item. Instead of making up a bunch of rules, better make sure that your HS Seniors know how to say &quot;condom&quot; in Italian, and know where to get them.

Maybe the above judgements will scare or even scare off half of the parents, but I think it's better to face the different aspects of culture and law before you start buying tickets, than do end up in desperate handwringing later.

sshephard~ No I do not feel like anyone is &quot;yelling&quot;. Danny needs help and people are trying to give it.

janisj, I accept there is a difference between US and European kids, but we live in a semi rural area, the kids here don't use buses or metros - they use bikes. And they were considerably younger - 14 and 15 year olds. I assume the ones Danny is talking about are 17 - 18 years old, so very much young adults, albeit rather naieve ones with not much experience of the wider world.
Danny take the advice given here - find a company that organises this sort of thing. Find out how much it will cost, how many adults they recommend accompany the group. Don't commit to anything until everyone involved agrees to it, and pays a sizeable deposit. Hold a cheese and wine evening (or whatever - a social based event in any case) for the parents, tell them your plans (once you have contacted a tour company), and answer their questions as best you can. Try and get a couple of the teacher form the scholl to go with you - hte ids will probably have more respect for them, and get the scholl to tie the trip into lessons a bit, so it is not seen purely as a jolly.

One thing I forgot:

I suspect that at least one of parents/ teachers going with that group has at least a fair command of Italian. If things go sour, I would want to be able to communicate rather than doing some sign language with some Italian carabinieri. (Yes, I know that also the police in Italy has English speaking officers.)

From my experience, many schools in Europe take out-of-country trips to France, England, or Spain - but usually the language classes, respectively -- and they are usually joined by at least one of their teachers who teach that language.

&quot;Hold a cheese and wine evening (or whatever - a social based event in any case) for the parents, tell them your plans (once you have contacted a tour company), and answer their questions as best you can.&quot;

More excellent advice, though you may have already thought of that.
My nephew went on a high school junior trip with their track coach (who is also a teacher, and a well-known dragon.) Everyone going and their parents had to sign some document that essentially said that the coach made the rules, explained the rules, and could unilaterally enforce the rules. That included sending miscreants home at parent's expense, that the group wouldn't wait if a kid missed a train, that
any kid caught in a room assigned to someone of the opposite sex would be sent home immediately, etc.
All &quot;fraternization&quot; among the group kids had to be in lobbies, public rooms, dining areas, etc.

Also, kids were grouped into subgroups of four, a variation on the buddy system. They were responsible within their subgroup of making sure that everyone was on time, that everyone was accounted for, and that no one could go off on their own, even to the bathroom, without the rest of the group knowing where they went and when they'd be back. If one kid wanted pizza for dinner, the other three had to also go for pizza for dinner. In one case a subgroup did miss a train (because one of them overslept) but at least they were all together. They caught the next train, they knew what the next destination and hotel was, and everyone was back together within 4 hours.

Everyone having cell phones was a tremendous advantage also.

WOW.. I'm just glad that I did my school trips on the other side of the pond ;-)

But seriously: All this good advice overlooks the fact that in Italy, no teacher, no coach, no parent can tell an 18yo adult what he or she has to do or must not do. They can't &quot;send them home&quot;, or &quot;put them on the next flight&quot;, or tell them when to leave the hotel or when to come home. Their level of possible intervention is zero.

Also this obsession with 17 and 18 year olds having sex, or rather: how to avoid it, is really hard to comprehend. (And I, being almost 40, usually consider myself rather old-fashioned.)

&gt;any kid caught in a room assigned to someone of the opposite sex would be sent home immediately,...

What about the assignee)s) with whom the kid was caught?

Sounds like a double standard to me. :)
..................................
Hi C,

No one cares if the kids engage in drinking, drugs, sex, and rock and roll.

The problem is that D will be responsible for anyone under 18, and a lawyer would probably argue those over 18 as well,

We are pointing out the problems he might face if a kid gets into trouble and the parents decide to sue him.

Even if he wins the lawsuits, they are very expensive.

((I))

ira..

I understand your concerns, but it is futile to plan for measures to intervene with the possible actions of an adult in Europe. It reminds me of other threads where concerned parents asked what they could do that their 16yo kids would not be served beer or wine when attending a language course on their own in Italy or France.

Most of the advices or suggestions from American posters sound a bit as if they were looking for a loop hole to take their legal and moral standards and laws with them. I do not see any lawful foundation for this, though.

As the organizer of such a trip, I would make it very clear to the parents (of the 18yo) that their kids will be in a legal environment that will be different from the one in the US. I'd much rather face the parents and students with the facts than with wishful thinking.

Even if the chaperones faced legal problems in the US for letting an 18yo student go to the bars at midnight and get totally hammered there, they would face criminal prosecution in Italy if they tried to keep him from going - if the student pressed charges. I will admit that this is a rather theoretical case (I hope).

That's why I would find it rather complicated if I was responsible for a group of students with mixed ages, some of them being adolescents, and the others being adults. I don't know if there are any legal precautions a chaperone can take so he or her she won't face legal problems for something which is not lawful in the US but in Europe.

This is a little too mysterious as to who did this asking and what the heck this is all about. If this is a school-sponsored trip, some issues need to be worked out legally and for insurance reasons. Can you imagine someone just deciding to take 15 kids to Europe without any idea with their legal liability will be if something goes wrong and they get sued? And I mean what if someone really serious goes wrong, not just a bad hotel, etc. (like legally or medically or a kid even dies or gets seriously injured).

I think those student companies that work with you on this are a good idea, but I know airlines have some special deals where you get group discounts, you just have to ask the airlines about that.

I find the idea that if a kid does something wrong or against the rules they get sent home immediately perhaps a good idea, but I don't see how that works. Last-minute air fares are extremely expensive, who lays out the money for that? YOu can't force parents to wire you money to pay perhaps thousands of dollars to send their kid home because you decided you didn't like what they were doing. Maybe the parents had to agree legally that they would reimburse someone for that airfare? Still, who lays it out to the airline?

Cowboy1968: I know, you go to the planning meeting Danny3643 will have w/ the parents and help him out. I can hear it now - &quot;<i>OK folks - your kids will be able to get stinking drunk every night and Danny won't be able to do a darn thing to stop it. Oh - and be sure everyone has their pills and condoms since the kids will be shagging every night</i>&quot; :D

Yeah, that'll do it . . . . .

You read my mind. :-))

Not sure about the tone, but content is right on the spot.

I will add a few extra issues:
1. Make sure you have a copy of everyone's passport kept separately from the originals (which should all be kept together so as to avoid loss).
2. Set a limit for spending money. Have a leader hold spending money if possible and give out some each day.
3. Make sure everyone knows not to mess around with any illegal drugs.
4. I would avoid Amsterdam - too tempting for some!
5. Have a full itinery planned. Tired teenagers are less likely to get into trouble.
6. Provide lectures / info. on each place before you go.
Good luck!

Christina - When using student tour companies parents sign a contract agreeing to their children being sent home at their expense. The student tour company has their credit card info for payments and can charge the ticket if need be. I really don't see how an individual taking a group if kids could do the same thing.

Cowboy, the legal issues are civil not criminal and they revolve around the fact that the OP will taking a large degree of responsibility for the safety and well being of the teenagers for the duration of the trip. Whether the kids are 18 or not is largely irrelevent.

Frankly, I wouldn't touch this with a ten-foot pole. Either do it through a recognized, professional organization that specializes in such trips, or don't do it at all.

I too would go with one of the travel companies. I can share horror stories.

We are experienced travelers and have taken friends of my kids abroad. No groups--one friend per kid with two parents. Even then we did major indemnification paperwork. This worked well. No bad story there.

What didn't work: Took eight kids (with indemnification) to nice place in US. Had meeting at house with all expectations, rules. Had kids and parents sign contract that they understood all the rules. As soon as they landed, four of the kids disobeyed all of them.

Friends' experiences: Three teacher buddies of mine, world travellers all, took 10 kids on tour to England. Had meeting with parents explaining drinking age, etc. Kids went out drinking in England. One teacher showed up to get them out of pub. Kid took picture. Parent found it later and submitted it to principal.

Result? All teachers fired.

Parent contacted me. Teachers in school no longer willing to take any kids abroad. She decided she will do it. My advice?

There are companies that do this. Use them. And make sure you are totally off the hook legally!!!!

I have three words for you to ponder:

Natalee Holloway
Aruba

ira, I get your point and your humor, but it's not a double standard. If I'm a student in my own room, I'm where I'm supposed to be. If a male person comes to my room during this trip, he's where he's not supposed to be.
Intentions or morality have nothing to do with it. :)

Any church, school, or youth group has an attorney in-house or on retainer who can draft the necessary releases from liability.
This is how student groups do indeed get to travel these days.
And since it is factual that students can be sent home (or, at least, driven to an airport and escorted to the jetway) and are personally responsible if they oversleep and miss the train, these issues must be legally covered somehow.
The school I referred to is a reputable private school in a major American city, and they've been sponsoring trips for years, including the track team's annualjunior trip to Europe. Kids have indeed been sent home from time to time, and some have missed their trains in Europe. And the leaders did not stay with the kids the whole time, the kids were free to go out to dinner on their own, or any where else they may choose to go. However, if the school's trip rules were violated (which included no drinking of alcoholic beverages) then the kid was sent home. It's not a European law, it's the school's trip rule. Same for the visiting of others' hotel rooms--it's a violation of the trip agreement, not a matter of morality or law. If those kids go home and drink or engage in anything at all, that's their own business. On the trip, it's the trip leaders' business.
Am I saying that no kid on a trip gets around the rules?--of course I wouldn't say that, no one who knows teenagesrs would say that. I just know that &quot;violators have been prosecuted&quot; when found out.

Just noticed that thisis Danny3643's very first posting.
Hmmm, sure generated a lively discussion.

Danny

Contrary to some posters who have responded, I think you are a wonderful fellow who is willing to forego some of your personal vacation time (probably) to offer the youth in your school a chance to open their eyes about the world. I think some posters on Fodors forget there must be a first time to travel ... and an organized student tour can be the best way to pique an interest that can last a lifetime.

I teach at a high school and have organized and chaperoned student trips to Europe and Egypt. We leave in 31 days for France and Spain - 36 students, 4 chaperones, 15 days.

Our school is also located in a rural area. I can relate to some of your worries.

You must be careful to protect yourself and your job. Many of the suggestions offered in this thread we already use in our planning. They are valuable.

I do urge you to work with a travel professional that specializes in student educational travel. There are a few that are better than others. I will share my thoughts with you if you would like to contact me.

I would be pleased to offer you any assistance I can. I can provide you with that &quot;form&quot; for taking underaged, unaccompanied children out of the country. I can forward any and all of the advice sheets and timetables we use in our planning.

You can contact me at my email address: cooperfam1 at yahoo.ca I look forward to hearing from you.