In situations like that I often think the person doesn;t do the necessary work because they really don;t want to go - or admit it. Sometimes people talk about these things and one person is totally committed to the idea and the other one thinks it's nice - but is kind of wishy washy and just afraid to say so.

I am painfully living the same situation right now....:-))

I am supposed to meet a friend in Sicily next October. She was the one to suggest going there, I'd rather have gone somewhere else.
It soon turned out that she had no idea about which places to visit. When I suggested she buys a guidebook, she said she had not thought of it and what a great idea it was (it nearly killed me) then added she relied entirely on my 'experience". She didn't know how to rent a car either ....
As a result, I've done all the logistics and I am bracing myself for the day she inevitably complains because she doesn't like the hotel or we should have gone here instead of there. :-)

Hey Suze, I agree with you, she would have been better off on a tour where she didn't have to make any decisions at all.

Mimar - that's a massive generalisation. I've observed many Americans greeting shop owners and asking polite questions etc. SOME Americans however, tend to be very loud, and on our recent trip we encountered quite a few groups of Americans, particularly on trains and while standing in queues, talking to each other admittedly, but it was all very loud and all about how fabulous they were. Yawn!!

To get back to CarolA's original post, occasionally stories surface here in Sydney about travellers who arrive at Sydney airport and then try to catch a taxi to Perth which is 5 hours flying time!! Think, catching a taxi from LA to New York!

I am an RN in an emergency room and have also been a police officer. Trust me - cluelessness does not limit itself to travelling. I am constantly amazed at how some people make it through life! One of my favorite sayings I've heard is - failure to plan on YOUR part is not an EMERGENCY on mine.

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then
I wish I could start those trips over again
I'm not sayin' I could never, you know, have a clue
I just don't wanna know how you travelled instead
It's not like I don't have a brain in my head
I'd still look like a fool on most of these threads
Yeah I wish somehow I didn't know now what I didn't know then

(apologies to Toby Keith)

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then
I wish I could start those trips over again
I'm not sayin' I could never, you know, have a clue
I just don't wanna know how you travelled instead
It's not like I don't have a brain in my head
I'd still look like a fool on most of these threads
Yeah I wish somehow I didn't know now what I didn't know then

(apologies to Toby Keith - who would have understood your Turkey tourmates' angst. )

Someone posted that they'd never read a post where someone blamed their bad experience (due to lack of planning) on someone else. I don't know about my fellow Fodorites, but I have heard several people talk very badly about a city, entire country, or the entire population of a oountry because they had a bad trip (due to lack of planning.) I guess it doesn't hurt me if someone has a lifelong hatred of Italy because they had a bad time on their poorly planned trip, but it does seem like a shame.

missypie wrote: " I guess it doesn't hurt me if someone has a lifelong hatred of Italy because they had a bad time on their poorly planned trip"

But it can have a bad effect if people express such a hatred as being the fault of the Italians for being in some way to blame for a bad travel experience. It might lead to people who could enjoy a trip to Italy choosing not to go; it might also lead to people who make a living from tourism losing business.

I don't blame anybody who does not enjoy a trip, whatever the reason. I do blame people who make unfair criticisms. Many ill-prepared travellers end up making unjust complaints.

Since this thread started, I've just had my own encounter with the clueless.

This would be my brother and sister-in-law. He told me this weekend about their trip to Paris. My brother is open-minded and wonderful and would go back to Europe in a heartbeat, but my sister-in-law refuses to ever go back because of the experience they had in Paris 18 years ago.

They stayed in some cheap hole-in-the-wall (my brother's words)--he had no clue which area it was in. They stayed two nights. Spent their one day there visiting the Louvre. Someone tried to mug them at the subway station. Everybody in Paris was incredibly rude and would not answer their questions--they felt like total bumpkins. And when they got on the train to go to the country, somebody stole my sister-in-law's purse, which she had left under the seat of the train.

I doubt they took any time to plan their experience in Paris ahead of time--just thought they could get a cheap hotel god knows where and experience the magic. It makes me sad they didn't have a good time, and even more sad that my sister-in-law refuses to ever visit anywhere in Europe again, as my brother would love to go.

Clueless? Yes.

Why would I care about others total lack of knowledge/planning/enjoyment of their trip? Maybe because I want to feel cool and knowledgeable but also because it is my job.

I had clients last October who hated Venice because of some steps between elevator floors in their hotel; they didn't like to walk; there were too many bridges to cross; they couldn't take taxis everywhere; water taxis were expensive; they hated getting off and on boats; and the vaporetto they were on didn't stop where they wanted it to.

They thought the vaporetto operator was horribly rude because when they asked him how to get to their stop, he told them they had to walk.

I had walked them to the vaporetto stop, told them exactly which boat to get on, and left them close to midnight. They got on the first boat that stopped and were furious with Venice.

They were the ones who wanted to go to Venice. Didn't they know that you couldn't get a cab?

Why did they want to go to Venice? Just because other people go there??? I have to say that I was amazed.

Blondiepopo, I love it! I must remember that phrase. It's been one of my greatest surprises in my adult life, how helpless people are. I've been on my own a long time, and I've learned to be prepared.

Tuscanlifeedit, do you work in tourism? I've always been curious about your screen name. What does it mean?

My first trip Many, many years ago to France, Paris and Provence I knew nothing, never read a guide book but I was young and wanted surprises. My friend was like me who drives(I don't) We had no reservations and the trip was wonderful. We came acros the Pont du Gard without knowing anything about it. As we drove on a road, having no idea where we were or cared, the Pont seemed to emerge from out of the woods. It was like a mystical experience. Gordes and Les Baux were not discovered yet by tourists and all the markets tere where we bought picnic food are all gone,

My ex boss first used that expression and I thought it was great. Try it on your kids - it really annoys them:)

As long as you have money, passport, and a plane ticket you are sufficiently prepared imo.

Throw in hotel reservations and a packed suitcase you're really good to go.

Read a guidebook on the plane ride over and you'll graduate with honors.

"As long as you have money.."
I would add :lots of money!

I knew someone who traveled with no luggage or any plans - just credit cards.
But then, he was very wealthy.

I don't understand the snotty attitude. What do you care? Just because you might plan your trips carefully, months in advance doesn't mean everyone has to. Some people go to places at the last minute and don't have time for planning. I've gone on trips with literally a day's notice. I'm sure people must have thought 'what an idiot, she should have planned this better' because I had to go right to the tourist office for ideas, but I don't care. In the last 6 months I've gone to the Canaries with two days notice and Brussels with a few HOURS notice. It's a case of throwing clothes into a bag and hailing a taxi. I've changed my plans after missing connections or buses and ended up in a totally different place to the one I intended to visit and had a great time.

I honestly think overplanning is just as bad as underplanning. I used to work in the tourist office and people would call me with itineraries planned to the second. Where's the fun in that? Something goes wrong and your whole plan is off, it doesn't leave room to just roam around and 'discover' stuff etc etc. Still, I understand that for some people, this was their big trip of a lifetime and they wanted to fit as much in as possible. I didn't think they were ignorant or stupid. Different strokes for different folks.

I don't think the argument is about planning versus not planning. In my twenties I went to Europe twice--never bought a guidebook, never made a hotel reservation ahead of time, never researched restaurants, etc.--and I had an amazing time.

I think I had an amazing time because I knew why I wanted to be there and what the places I visited had to offer me. I missed some things because I didn't have a guidebook, but I thoroughly enjoyed whatever I experienced.

Cluelessness is someting else, I think. It's having preconceived ideas about what you *should* experience and feeling that the experiences will somehow just materialize because you are there. This is what leads to disappointment and lack of enjoyment.

And yes, of course--to each his own. But what's the difference between somebody observing and criticizing the way somebody travels and somebody observing and criticizing what somebody posts about? It's all being judgmental.

Merseyheart:

As for the screen name, it was my work email address when I was the editor of something called The Tuscan Life Newsletter. I had that job for a long time, and joined Fodors during that period.

I worked for a Florence based holiday rental company back then.

I am now in a different part of the tourism business.

So I don't mean to sound snotty, or advertise or anything of that sort. It can be very frustrating when I've put a lot of work and caring into someone's trip, and they hate the city because they didn't know Venice was on water! Makes me look bad, and how likely are they to keep doing business with my company? Or refer others?

On that note (not to Mheart)

I don't think it is necessarily a snotty attitude. Everyone finds something in their fellow men that amazes them. For some of us, it is people who travel to Paris and want to take a local bus to Nice! Or people who are p'oed because they have to get in a boat or walk in Venice.

If there are those here that are so evolved that they are never shocked or surprised or puzzled by the behavior of others, then I say that such are very fortunate. Me, I'm just weak. People surprise me all the time. And sometimes I think they are clueless. And sometimes they think I am clueless!

Hi Tuscanlifeedit, you would have 'loved' a friend of ours, who arrived in Paris and needed the toilet. He came out of the bathroom/restroom and commented to my husband that he didn't like Paris. HB was shocked and asked why, the friend replied that it was because the bathroom had separate toilets but communal washbasins and he didn't like sharing the washbasin with the women. Sad but true, and the worst part is that this happened while they were still at the airport!!

"
If there are those here that are so evolved that they are never shocked or surprised or puzzled by the behavior of others, then I say that such are very fortunate. Me, I'm just weak. People surprise me all the time. And sometimes I think they are clueless. And sometimes they think I am clueless!"

Of course everyone thinks it, but not everyone looks down on others because of something they heard. When you overhear something, you don't know about that persons' circumstances. I always remind myself of that. Why is OP assuming these people 'flew into Paris without a clue'? Perhaps they missed a connection from London to Buenos Aires and ended up staying in France for a few days? Perhaps they knew where it was, and considered the train ride short compared to what they were used to? I'm sure we all make comments that sound stupid to other people, out of context. Working in a tourist office, I spoke to plenty of clueless people, but overhearing a remark is totally different.