I don't know why Agen is pronounced the way it is. Proper nouns (i.e. city names) have pronunciations that are hard to expain.

Saint-Ouen in Paris (the flea market) is pronouced to rhyme with bien or Gien.

In Rouen there is a church named Saint-Ouen -- pronounced (oo-wa[n]), like Rouen (roo-wa[n]).

ckenb,

I question some of your statements. Following your rules, there would be no difference in the pronunciation of these last two syllables: <i>un chant chiant</i>, or between the third and the fifth in <i>mon frangin de Gien</i>. Moreover, I am sure that <i>chien</i> still contains the <i>jod</i>. Of course, Gien may be an exception to the common pronunciation and might rhyme with <i>frangin</i> and <i>engin</i>, but that is the problem with proper nouns and place names--they tend to evolve somewhat differently.

Proper names...like why is Leicester Square pronounced Lester....

With respect to &quot;chant&quot; and &quot;chiant,&quot; there's a big difference: &quot;chiant&quot; is two syllables; the &quot;i&quot; is pronounced as a vowel rather than a semivowel.

As for the &quot;-gin&quot; in &quot;frangin&quot; vs. &quot;Gien,&quot; I think ckenb's point is that, due to the nature of the /zh-/ sound, the difference between them, if any, is much subtler than, say, the difference between &quot;vin&quot; and &quot;vient.&quot;

Jahoulih,

Voil&agrave;. Merci. I think &quot;chiant&quot; is nearly two syllables, where &quot;Gien&quot; is nearly one syllable. Interesting.

Michael,

Yes, chien still contains the semi-vowel, but it is much more subtle than in vient or bien, for example. I don't think Gien has evolved differently -- it's a question of phonetics.

Maintenant, &ccedil;a suffit, non?

I doubt that <i>chiant</i> has two syllables as it is derived from a word that has only one and <i>chienlit</i> has two, not three syllables. Unfortunately that is the only thing I could find in Le Petit Robert. Someone with a more comprehensive dictionary might be able to better clarify the issue.

Agen was originally Aginnum (2nd-century Latin for &quot;at the foot of a high place&quot;), according to my Dictionnaire des Noms de Lieux de France. It did not metamorphose into anything else before becoming Agen.

Interesting - this dictionary confirms that &quot;chier&quot; is one syllable:

http://atilf.atilf.fr/tlfi/

In that case, it forms a minimal pair with &quot;chez,&quot; and I suppose &quot;chiant&quot; would form a minimal pair with &quot;chant.&quot;

StCirq -- Does this dictionary give pronunciation for the places? Is the dictionary available in most good-sized bookstores?

StCirq -- That is, bookstores in France!

I hear a difference between chiant and chant or chier and chez. But I admit that I don't really hear the 'i' (semivowel) much in Gien or chien. It's clearly there in bien, lien, mien, sien, tient, rien, vient.

OK, so the flea market is in St. Ouen, which is not pronounced the same way as Rouen? I am totally confused now, but I think I shall begin to talk about the flea market at Clignancourt instead. At least I can pronounce that. I think.

Hey, in Illinois the town called Cairo is pronounced kay-ro. Albany NY is not pronounced the same way as Albeny GA.

So it the Parisiens and Rouennais want to pronounce Saint-Ouen differently, who are we to quibble?

Oops --- those towns in NY and GA are both spelled Albany, but pronounced differently.

vedette:

The dictionary is published by Larousse, so if they're still publishing it, yes, it would be available in France. Mine is the 1963 edition and I picked it up at a State Department book sale in Washington, DC.

I just found my Dictionnaire de la Prononciation (Larousse 1980) and discovered that it has pronunciations for proper names in an appendix. I hadn't looked at this book in years.

It gives Senlis, for example, with the final -s pronounced. It says Cassis is pronounced without the -s. Carpentras is pronounced without, and Gigondas is pronounced with.

the best way is still to ask a (local) Frenchman (for the record I know a place called Fitz-James, in Picardie, which is pronounced &quot;fit jam&quot;...)

Wow! I had no idea this question would be so complicated. The whole thing started because my sister in law pronounced it with a hard &quot;G&quot; It sounded like Geen &amp; I told her that sounded wrong. It sounds like the &quot;zh&quot; part is a given.

For several years, we had a house in Vineuil St. Firmin, near Chantilly. We never did succeed with the pronunciation of Vineuil, and eventually had to to move1

Was it not a simple rhyme with &quot;fauteuil&quot;?