High-Speed Train News - Italy, Spain, Holland
 

new high-speed lines opening all over Europe!

ITALY MILAN-BOLOGNA
In December, presumably at the start of winter schedules the all-new high-speed rail line between Milan and Bologna will open with an all-new version of the old ETR trains - a pendolino i believe.

Milan- Florence will be slashed to 2 hours, from 2 h 45 currently - it will be only 3.5 hrs Milan-Rome.

When the Bologna-Florence new high-speed line opens next year a bit more time will be shaved off.

NEXT - SPAIN
HOLLAND

Hello Pal, I knew this was your thread before I opened it up.

Your news will make several of my Italian friends in Italy happy as they have to travel a lot by train for their work. I guess there won't be a faster train between Milan and Venice?

The Dutch are still waiting for their engines (made by Italians!) so it will be end of next year at the earliest I'm afraid. No engines, no high speed trains. Lines are all in place and ready to go though.

Hi LoveI - i have heard nothing about any high-speed line actually under construction Venice to Milan - rather perplexing since the area is so populous.

They did put a few Eurostar City (? name) trains on the line last year that are marginally faster because they do not stop as much i think - but same old congested tracks that limit speeds even for conventional trains.

hetismij - thanks for that update - weird the all-new high-speed line is finished and has been in Holland for some months now - i saw it at places parallel to the old line - all in place but no trains. Now you explain waiting for engines - end of 2009?

SPAIN - The Pain in Spain is no more on the train - no country really, even the French, in the last decade or so has opened or is planning to open so many high-speed lines:

Malaga-Madrid is finished and open i believe (actually Malaga to part of the older AVe line i believe)

Madrid to Barcelona all done except i think a problematic part inside Barcelona itself where problems have occurred. But yeh supposed to be the fastest in Europe at about 205mph when technical snafus are fully solved.

Barcelona-Perpignan - this line, including a tunnel under the Pyrenees and border will tie in with French TGVs (though the French portion Perpignan to Montpellier is noticeably not anywhere near opening) - potentially thru running TGVs from Paris (and Amsterdam) all the way to Barcelona and Madrid to Seville (though thru running makes little sense except night TGVs perhaps.

Spain also is opening bits of the Madrid to Hendaye line at high-speed, such as around Segovia area and plans for one to Santiago-La Coruna area are progessing.

"Barcelona-Perpignan - this line, including a tunnel under the Pyrenees and border will tie in with French TGVs (though the French portion Perpignan to Montpellier is noticeably not anywhere near opening)" -

It is scheduled to open in 2012.

thank you Prov- a bit later than i had thought - but no prep i think at all on French portion. May be wrong on that too.

You may :-)
Spain is 3 years behind schedule due to environmental problems : the 5.6 km tunnel between the stations of Sants and la Sagrera would run directly under the Sagrada Familia Church -. Huge uproar among the environmentalists.

Switzerland

Though Swiss train times are getting faster mainly because of new tunnels and straighter tracks they are also improving due to more use of Tilting train technology - such as on the Cisalspino ("Chis-alpino") trains rolling between Italy and Switzerland.

And SBB reports that many new tilting trains will soon be running domestic routes as well. Like the ones on the Zurich/Lucerne - Lugano Gotthard Route - with times between Arth-Goldau and Lugano speeded up by a whopping 15 minutes!

But when the Uber long Gotthard Tunnel is finished in a few years then times will drastically decline on this route (as will the scenery - bucolic Alpine stuff will turn into dark tunnel walls!)

>though thru running makes little sense except night TGVs perhaps.

Why? Do you think nobody will want to travel from Lyon to Lleida?

>bucolic Alpine stuff will turn into dark tunnel walls

Bad news for tourists, but good news for commuters - which are a big majority among the passengers. My Zürich flatmate had to take the Bernina route every time she visited her family. She said there is hardly anything transportation-wise she would want more than a Bernina base tunnel.

When will there be one in the US....?

Always in a hurry and missing everything on the way...

High Wall

I was talking more about thru TGVs from Amsterdam to Seville, as there would be little need for such a daytime train vs. flying - night maybe.

But yeh there will be i expect cross border TGVs say between Montpellier and Lleida, Zaragoza, etc. - an expansion on the current Talgo trains that go Montpellier-Valencia

Actually i would thould be very little demand for Lyon-Lleida thru train and changing in Barcelona should be a snap - Lyon-Madrid is just too far time-wise to attract many passengers i think.

But at least the new high-speed lines in Spain are the same track gauge as those thruout most of Europe so thru running is possible - may be of more use for freight i think however than passengers

(Currently the tracks in Spain, except the high-speed AVE tracks, are wider than those in France so only the few Talgo trains, which have moveable wheelbases - yeh they crank the wheels further apart or closer at the border. All non-Talgo day and night trains terminate at the borders and thus you must currently almost always get off the French train and bord the waiting (often not always) Spanish train to continue on.

Not so fast, Pal... The Swiss are very unhappy about the delays in bringing in the highspeed trains between the Mittelland and the Geneva region. The first trains of the type ETR 610 (from French supplier Alstrom) are probably (!?!) ready to run by June 2009. They hope that by 2010 all 14 "leaning" Cisalpino-type (Pendolino) trains that have been ordered will be in operation.

Meanwhile they are making do with ETR 470 trains (Cisalpino) and ICN trains (SBB).

The route from Lucerne to Milan will still require a change of trains in Arth-Goldau. Basel-Lucerne-Milan will for the time being be served with ICN trains.

The Swiss are also unhappy about the lax maintenance of the Cisalpino trains done in Italy, too many are breaking down, so much so that Swiss inspectors go over every train formation while the trains are in Switzerland, and there are moves afoot to bring the maintenance into Switzerland (but don't hold your breath).

The new basis tunnel of the Lötschberg has shaved off considerable time on the Bern-Spiez-Milan route, so some things are looking up.

'and thus you must currently almost always get off the French train and bord the waiting (often not always) Spanish train to continue on'.

Only if you take regional trains which are far from convenient any way. You don't have to change trains if you take the Talgo and the Mare Nostrum.

hetismij says...<i>&quot;The Dutch are still waiting for their engines (made by Italians!) so it will be end of next year at the earliest I'm afraid. No engines, no high speed trains. Lines are all in place and ready to go though.&quot;</i>

PalenQ replies...<i>&quot;hetismij - thanks for that update - weird the all-new high-speed line is finished and has been in Holland for some months now - i saw it at places parallel to the old line - all in place but no trains. Now you explain waiting for engines - end of 2009?&quot;</i>

My question is... Since the Thalys already runs high speed from Paris to Brussels, then continues on to Amsterdam at a lower speed (because they didn't have the high speed tracks to run on), why can't the Thalys just use the new high speed tracks that they just installed?

We're planning an October 2009 trip to Amsterdam and France, and were really hoping the high-speed line would be up and running.

Robyn :)&gt;-

Sarkozy announced today along with his 26 billion euro plan to boost the economy ($33 billion) that part of it will be to accelerate the construction of 4 high speed train lines, which will be built simultaneously between 2010 and 2014.

And when will all my fellow country men and women here in Canada and those south of the border in the US wake up and realize that high-speed train travel could be a viable alternative to gas-guzzling cars and jet fuel pollution here?

Robyn - darn good question about why Thalys trains do not now use the new tracks???

Hetismij is i think talking about the Sprinter trains designed to run in Holland and to Antwerp and Brussels i think - no engines yet for those.

As far as I understand it the tracks from the Dutch border to Rotterdam are yet to be fully tested at high speed. Until that is completed no trains can travel over them. The line from Amsterdam to Rotterdam is in use for high speed trains, and will be accepting passengers soon, probably early 2009, using Traxx trains until the Italians pull their finger out and deliver the really high speed trains.
There are no plans yet for the rest of the line - they are waiting for the engines from Italy so they can test the lines at high enough speeds I believe. They can't use Thalys trains for this - there aren't enough to spare one, and they are no exclusively owned by NS.
Until they are fully tested at speed and certified no passenger trains may use the lines, reasonably enough. It is more to do with the safety system than anything. It is more complicated here because of the cross border work, and the fact that it meets existing track.
I am not sure but I think there is also a hold up on the Belgian side between Brussels and the Border.
Only 85 of the total 125 Km within the Netherlands will be high speed line anyway, due to the vast conurbation it must travel through. When it is up and running you wll be able to get from Schiphol to Rotterdam in just 26 minutes.

I have not heard that the portion that will burrow under Antwerp and make Antwerpen Centraal now a Thalys stop - that that underground portion is finished - Antwerpen Centraal where no longer be a terminus but just another station between Paris and Amsterdam C.S.

Thanks, hetismij and PalenQ, for the info.

My husband and I are taking a friend with us on our next trip to Europe, hopefully in October 2009. One of our friend's requests was to travel on some high speed rail lines.

We'd like to take the Thalys from Amsterdam to Antwerp, then on to Brussels. From there we'll take the TGV to Marseille. After spending several days in the South of France, we'll take the TGV from Avignon back north to Paris for a few nights, and end our trip with the Thalys back to Amsterdam. We're really hoping that most of the journey will be high-speed rail by October.

I certainly would appreciate it if you would please keep me posted on any new developments.

Thanks,
Robyn :)&gt;-

Robyn - if the high-speed lines in Holland are not open by then, taking the Thalys will not be high-speed as it goes over old tracks at conventional speeds. Hopefully the line will finally be operating by then. But i would think that, due to the very congested area it goes thru, that true top speeds of nearly 200 may not be realized on this stretch as they are on the Brussels-Marselliles TGVs and other French TGVs.

I'm not sure but perhaps they will be running Thalys in Holland at 185 mph or so but hard for me to imagine it.

And for doing that type of train travel i would certainly investigate the Benelux-France railpass - though for Thalys you do have to pay a supplement of about $15-20 but on TGV lines just the mandatory 3 euro reservation fees. the pass has same benefits as a Eurailpass but is only valid in Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg and France. (www.ricksteves.com and www.budgetopetravel.com for lots of info on trains in these countries as well as the usual pass prices.)

It is hoped that the Thalys will travel at speed through the Netherlands from mid 2009. It will travel at speeds of 250-300km/hour for part of that journey, but obviously between Amsterdam and Schiphol it will be slower, and possibly between Amsterdam and Rotterdam it will only go at 160-250km/hour.
When I know more I will post it on Fodors for you Robyn.

Thank you for your offer, hetismij. I would certainly appreciate it if you would post any updates to this thread. Have a good day.

Robyn :)&gt;-

I've noticed the new schedules on Trenitalia have changed the train logo for some routes from separtate AV or ES to a combo logo of the two. The Milan/Florence train is listed as taking about 2:10.
http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/inde...003f16f90aRCRD

Milan-florence now has the newest of the high-speed ETR engines and thus, like when Rome-Naples opened and those then newest ETR engines were labeled AV - they probably want to differentiate between the older ETR trains and the newer ones by a new nomenclature. Maybe?

Maybe, but I've taken what is supposed to be AV between Naples/Rome and the train was actually an ES.