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Help with UK Itinerary for Fall 2012
My husband and I are planning a "once-in-a-lifetime" 16-day trip (actual time there, not including flying) to the UK this fall. We plan to fly into London and spend several days there, then rent a car and drive around the countryside; we hope to include Wales and Scotland. Our return flight departs from Edinburgh.
We'd like to see as much HISTORY and NATURAL BEAUTY as we can, and would very much appreciate some feedback on the following travel itinerary, including the order in which we should arrange our itinerary (to eliminate "back & forth" driving), how much time we should allocate to each area, what we might want to eliminate in the interest of time, what we absolutely should not miss, etc. Even as I'm writing this, I'm thinking we might have to take Canterbury and Dover off our itinerary and head from London straight to Hampton Court, Kew,etc ... although I would like to see Sissinghurst and Hever Castles. Since we're driving (except for inside London), we have a lot of flexibility in our travel plans. Here's our preliminary itinerary: London (4 days) Canterbury Cathedral Dover Castle Sissinghurst Gardens Hever Castle Hampton Court Palace Kew Gardens Windsor Castle Winchester Cathedral Salisbury Cathedral Stonehenge Bath Coswolds Cardiff Castle (WALES) Warwick Castle (is this more of an "attraction?") Beaumaris (WALES) Conwy Castle (WALES) Rievaulx Abbey (YORKSHIRE) York Fountains Abbey (NORTH YORKSHIRE) Whitby Abbey (NORTH YORKSHIRE) Barnard Castle (NORTH YORKSHIRE) Hadrians Wall Glasgow (Scotland) Stirling (Scotland) Edinburgh (Scotland) Whew, that DOES look like a lot -- I'm sure some things will have to go! I really appreciate any constructive advice! Thanks in advance! :-) |
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Whew, this indeed is a lot. Others will be much more skillful in pointing out the pitfalls of your itinerary, but I will offer some suggestions. Cotswolds is an area not a town, you could do with researching where in particular you want to visit. I think you can sacrifice Hadrians Wall and Whitby Abbey (the latter is indeed located in a beautiful town but if you have limited time then I would take it out) Glasgow could also go. I would go direct from York to Edinburgh and possibly leave out Stirling. Allocate your time between London, York and Edinburgh - Rievaulx and Fountains Abbey are side trips from York but aren't must sees. Hope this helps.
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Your list would be next to impossible in a month let alone 2+ weeks. So you need to cut more than a few of the places from your list
But just some random thoughts: • Hampton Court Palace and Kew Gardens are in outer London and MUCH easier to do by public transport from the city center than by car. Windsor Castle is just outside London (very near LHR) and an easy day trip by train. Add a few days to London and do these from the city. • You don't have time for London and parts of 3 countries. London/Yorkshire/Scotland would fill your time. <B>OR</B> London/Bath/the Cotswolds/bits of Wales. <B>OR</B> London, the southeast/Salisbury/Stonehenge/Bath. Something along those lines • So back to the drawing board and refocus . . . |
My head is spinning just reading that list and it needs a lot of trimming down! But I'll leave one of our itinerary 'experts' to do that - I don't quite know where to start except your end list is going to be about half what it is now!
I should be able to help you with your Yorkshire part once you have sorted things out a bit more. Barnard Castle isn't in North Yorkshire by the way, it's in County Durham - why do you want to go there? The Bowes Museum? You clearly have a big interest in Abbeys - which would make Fountains Abbey a 'must see' as a World Heritage site I would have thought. But there are other Abbeys up here - Mount Grace, Byland, Jervaulx. |
It strikes me you have used up at least 11 days by the time you get done with the Cotswolds on your list. With the five remaining days, you could choose Wales or North Yorkshire/County Durham or Edinburgh/Glasgow.
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good grief - more like two months to do these places justice.
in 16 days you have time to do 3 places thoroughly, starting in london, you could do this: 5 days in london, 5 in yorkshire [get the train from London to York, then from York to Edinburgh] 5 in Edinburgh. or 5 days in London, 5 days in sussex, fly from Gatwick to Edinburgh, etc. or...well, you get the idea. |
I've culled the bits that don't hit your objectives
London (4 days) Canterbury Cathedral Hampton Court Palace Windsor Castle Winchester Cathedral Salisbury Cathedral Stonehenge Bath Cardiff Castle (WALES) Beaumaris (WALES) Conwy Castle (WALES) Rievaulx Abbey (YORKSHIRE) York Fountains Abbey (NORTH YORKSHIRE) Whitby Abbey (NORTH YORKSHIRE) Barnard Castle (NORTH YORKSHIRE) Hadrians Wall Stirling (Scotland) Edinburgh (Scotland) I'd tun google maps against this list and see how it looks |
Thanks for the replies so far. Not really what I wanted to hear, but definitely what I NEEDED to hear: My "dream list" is just that ... not a reality. **sigh**
I'll start by taking Canterbury and Dover off the list and adding extra days to London, so Hampton Court Palace, Kew Gardens, and Windsor Castle will be "easy day trips." Cotswold is also off the list. I really wanted to visit that area -- with their "quintessentially" English cottages -- but it sounds like that could take an entire week (not that that would be a bad thing, but just not this trip.) Now to go back and refocus ... |
quick study :)
I'd consider a full week in London - that would give you a chance for a day trip to Bath. This would still be VERY rushed and you might decide to drop one or more of the day trips once you are in London. In your re-thinking, do consider a combo of train/rental car. It could stretch your too short time just a bit. . . For instance something like London w/o a car (of course), train to York. One day/night there car-less and see the city. Collect a car the next morning, explore the Abbeys/Castle Howard. One more night in York. Next day see Whitby etc. and drive on to Northumberland. Spend the next two nights in this area for the Wall and Alnwick Castle/Gardens. Then up to Edinburgh/Stirling/etc. for the rest of your time. This is just one option - but gets you on the right track. |
Hello
One more Brit adding her thoughts to the mix, so here goes - You're attempting too much in 16 days. Sorry. A lot of the things are similar to each other, so don't worry about cutting some out. - Kew and Hampton Court Palace are London attractions and can be done in one of your London days. Don't rent a car in the city. Public transport is very good here. - Canterbury, Dover and Cardiff are 'meh' in my opinion. Not a great deal to see and a great distance between them - Bath, Salisbury, Stratford-Upon-Avon (I know you didn't mention it but Shakespeare!) and small Cotswolds villages should be done in one burst. - I would then go to York, Fountains/ Bolton Abbey/ Pickering and Whitby. You could take a train to York or Leeds. PS, forget Barnard Castle. You'll get the same thrill from, say, Pickering castle and it's on the way from York to Whitby. - Then dump the car (if you still have it) and book a train to Edinburgh. York to Ed is easy, comfortable and so scenic. You could get a single from York to Ed, then a single from Ed back to London (presume that's where you're flying home from?) and if timed well, might be cheaper than a round trip return. Don't forget our trains are not like in the US, they're a major part of British life and we use them very regularly. Hope this helps! |
ALSO
Oh god, don't swap the Cotswolds for Windsor IMHO!! Windsor is full of tat: union jacks, overpriced teddies, chain restaurants (sad) and Japanese tourists. Getting lost in Cotswolds villages is lovely..you will regret it if you don't see quintessential English countryside. Speaking as a resident of London, I wouldn't spend more than 4 days here. It will knock you out. Mentally, and money-wise. x |
Deb, you are leaping from one unrealistic side to the other too quickly. Your original plan would have given you maybe 1 hour as you drove across one corner of the Cotswolds on your way from Bath to Cardiff. Now you say you are dropping the Cotswolds, because it would take a week. No it won't. For most visitors, one day would give a solid overview and understanding of the area - you could see a couple of villages, admire one of the great wool churches, see the fields of rape and flax, etc.
Really, think that you can see at most two attractions a day, use the RAC or AA journey planners to compute travel times and pick 10 to 12 things you really want to see after London. |
The following website works well for the UK:
www.theaa.com/route-planner You will need to add another 30% (or more) to their times. |
Sarahoppet: Dover Castle is meh and not a great deal to see?? Canterbury Cathedral - meh? Not that they necessarily have time for them - depending on what is cut.But Dover Castle is just about THE premier medieval castle in the UK - not even taking the Roman, Victorian and WWII bits into account.
And - they are flying out of Edinburgh. |
I hope your plans are coming together quickly and smoothly for you.
There are many good suggestions above. We planned a pretty ambitious 13 day trip (4 nights in London and 9 on the road) in 2010--after London we went (one night each, but several hours in almost every spot) to Oxford, Shrewsbury, Conwy, Carlisle, along Hadrian's Wall all day and spent night in Durham, York, a stop in Lincoln on the way to free hotel east of London, Dover, and a couple stops on way back to London for one night before plane. It was wonderful for us that year. But it was ambitious. We had to wave at the Cotswolds basically and fly through (ok, we kinda crawled in traffic sometimes) the Lake District. But you'll see we didn't make it to Scotland. And we had to fly in and out of LHR (FF tickets). And we'd been to England before and so had already seen Stonehenge, Bath, Salisbury, Warwick, and Stratford so didn't try to repeat those--but all of those are great. If you're willing to do some one-night stays (maybe lots of them) after London, you can see a good bit. But probably not all on your original list, as you are seeing. But if you want to go quickly and not linger, this is YOUR trip--you don't have to travel like anyone else. But the advice above is very very practical and to the point. Which is a vague way of saying I'd suggest you shorten your list, but only you know which sights are most important. Then plan your travel so you can make it to those sights BUT you must allow adequate travel time. I used googlemaps to guesstimate and then DOUBLED it to be sure to have enough time in wherever we were going. In actuality, we took 1.25 to 1.5 times the suggeted times on googlemaps (usually closer to 1.5). So by planning for twice as long as internet sites said, we always made it with enough time to do some sightseeing. We did not encounter any major weather, traffic, wrecks or construction, which I think for 2 weeks in summer in England is rather unusual. So just allow plenty of extra time for those car travel stints. And have a blast and write a Trip Report when you return! (If you have any inclination and want to see how we did our travel, you can read my TR from 2010. http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-and-wales.cfm In 2008 we spent 2 wonderful weeks in London and made 5 day trips via train and bus--that was cool, too.http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-day-trips.cfm) |
Janis J - I was being cut throat with her itinerary in the interests of little time she has. I guess you have to be pretty ruthless in deciding places, and I would say Dover and Canterbury are big detours. Whereas the Yorkshire castles and Abbeys trip can incorporate a city visit and an English seaside visit.
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I totally agree they are detours and won't fit here (unless they cut Yorkshire/Scotland/etc) . . . But Dover Castle and Canterbury Cathedral definitely are not 'meh' . . .
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Thank you, everyone!! JANISJ ("quick study" LOL!) and SARAHPOPPET27, I don't think any site on my list is "meh" ;-) but I TOTALLY get that I have to cut some things out, so it's best for us to drop the the Canterbury/Dover part of our trip and focus west (Bath) and north (York.) Thank you, HISTORYTRAVELER, for the "AA" link -- I haven't checked it out yet, but I will; and TEXASBOOKWORM, I will definitely read your Trip Reports! We don't mind "one-night stands" if that means we get more bang for our buck!
Well, we're NOT skipping Windsor :-) but will see about at least driving through the Cotswolds (thanks, RON ... I think, LOL!) Okay, so in doing some re-thinking, maybe after London: Sissinghurst Gardens, Leeds Castle, Hever Castle (I'm thinking maybe we can see these in one day? Or maybe we should leave these out entirely?) Salisbury, Avebury (?), Bath (maybe spend an extra day here) Wales via Cotswolds (can anyone suggest a scenic route from Bath to, I guess, Bristol? That looks like the "jumping point" to Wales.) In Wales: Chepstow Castle, Tintern Abbey, Monmouth Castle (these seem to be in the lower corner and thus doable in maybe one day.) Drive to York (again, suggestions for scenic routes are welcome! :-) ) Visit town of York, Fountains Abbey, Rievaulx Abbey, Richmond Castle, Byland Abbey, Whitby Abbey (this may be ambitious and we may have to cull this a bit.) Drive up to Scotland (or is this the time to dump the car and take a train?) Figure out how many days are left after the above itinerary before determining what to visit in Scotland, LOL. I very much appreciate everyone's input!! :-) |
Sissinghurst Gardens, Leeds Castle, Hever Castle
(I'm thinking maybe we can see these in one day? Or maybe we should leave these out entirely?)>> you might do two out of these three in a day, but you'd need a car to do it. you could add Penshurst to Hever, or Chiddingstone. [where they have a small castle but also a lovely unspoilt village where they often film because there are no phone lines etc.] the countryside round these places is lovely too, which is why i suggested staying in Sussex and spending a few days exploring that area - there is loads to see and do. |
If you were going to Leeds Castle -- it makes more sense to keep Canterbury and Dover . . . Since it is in the same general area.
But I'd ditch Leeds castle. Not worth the time/effort and it is in the wrong direction for everything else you are planning (not a bug loss BTW). Better groupings would be Hever/Chartwell/Penshurst Place one day (easily doable and every one is better than Leeds) Then another day Sissinghurst/Scotney Castle/Bodiam. That would be a great 2 day/2 night Kent/East Sussex segment. You are still being over ambitious IMO. London, East Sussex, Salisbury, Avebury, Bath, the Cotswolds (even just a drive through), S.Wales, Yorkshire and anything much in Scotland and you are in 3 to 4 week territory. Remember -London will need at least 6 or 7 days if you want to squeeze in HCP/Kew/Windsor. |
I'm a North Yorkshire girl now living in London so am definitely biased! :-)
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oops - that should be ... >> (not a big loss BTW) <<
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Does the hubby get a say? If so, he'd probably like Dover Castle and probably trying to figure out a way to see a soccer match. Perhaps whacking a wee ball into a wee hole with tools ill-suited for that very purpose whilst in Scotland?
After all, there are activities you can engage in other than bouncing from tourist site to tourist site. Culling the Welsh part of the trip is a good idea - Wales tends to be rainier than the rest of Great Britain and getting to Northern Wales (Conwy, etc.) is a real pain. Wouldn't go too far out of the way to see Hever - that's for the real Tudor history die-hards. The Castle is more of a large country home and has been completely refurb'd since the late 1800s so it does not really resemble the place where Anne Boleyn lived as a child or Anne of Cleves retired. It's nice, but there are better day trips and the fast train from St Pancras to Dover takes about the same amount of time as the train to Edenbridge Town (for Hever Castle) despite the larger distance. |
Better groupings would be Hever/Chartwell/Penshurst Place one day (easily doable and every one is better than Leeds)
Then another day Sissinghurst/Scotney Castle/Bodiam.>> nice ideas jj. tunbridge wells would make a great base for this segment. [yes, i know it's in Kent, but it would work well for these places, and the surroundings are lovely]. also. you can get the train from london, and pick up a hire car at T/wells. |
oops, posted too soon; you could also use it as a base for touring some of the lovely Wealden towns such as Tenterden, Staplehurst, Cranbrook, as well as Rye of course.
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We actually liked Dover Castle much more than we expected. And Canterbury is nice. Both an easy train trip from London. Have been many of those places in England, plus others, and would be hard pressed to tell you favorites. I will suggest, though, that you check the British Heritage website and see if a pass would make sense for you. It certainly did for us in '98, somewhat better than break even and that was before the "extras". We ran across some Roman ruins and abbeys along our route that we hadn't known about but which were interesting for 30 min. or an hr. but didn't cost us extra because we had the pass.
We flew into London in '98 and spent a day and a half there before taking the bus to Heathrow and picking up a car. Since the airport is "right next door" to Hampton Court, we made that our first stop. (And even though we'd only been driving a few minutes, we were glad to take a break from "wrong side" driving.) Then went to Warwick Castle, which we also liked; it might be kind of an "attraction" but sometimes those are interesting, fun and educational. I had an ambitious schedule for our 7 days in England, based on what I could do in the US in that amount of time/distance. Wrong! I had 3-4 things on the agenda each day but 2 was a more reasonable goal. The roads aren't US roads, even the motorways. (And are you accustomed to driving on the left? Takes awhile to get used to that.) Also, the things we did were things that couldn't be accomplished easily by train - weird stuff not in your plans like Avebury, West Kennet Long Barrow following a morning at Stonehenge. Much of what you list can be done by train from London and doesn't involve trying to find parking. Of course, sometimes trying to do two things in a day on the train can be a problem - you might have to train back to London to get to the next one, which adds time. Go to the London Walks website and see what they offer in out-of-town trips as well as in London. After '98 we have been back in the UK four times, with 5-8 days in London each time. It wasn't till our last trip that we did any London Walks and after the first one, we liked it so much we did a number of them. (Jack the Ripper was our least favorite, Inns of the Court the one I'd do again even though I didn't expect to like it.) The nice thing about these is that you just show up, don't have to book ahead, so if it's raining and you decide you'd rather do a museum than Little Italy, you can. Great way to see nooks and crannies you wouldn't otherwise find on your own and painlessly learn more history than you would otherwise. If I ran the zoo, I'd only spend 2 days in Edinburgh (1 in a pinch) and if I really wanted to see Stirling, I'd take the short train trip from there. Back in the olden days there was a company called Guide Friday that had hop on-hop off double decker buses (red) in many cities and towns. Most of the guides were very informative and the day passes were pretty cheap (av. 8 pounds in the late '90, early 00s), so we used those in Stirling for transportation and also Cambridge, Bath, many other towns. Maybe 10 years ago the company was sold but as recently as 6 years ago you could access the new company by googling Guide Friday. You might be able to find the new company or a similar one that would be helpful. |
Just a quick comment on your proposed little foray into Wales. Chepstow Castle and Tintern Abbey are great choices. Forget Monmouth Castle (I had to look it up - I've been to Monmouth, wasn't aware it had a castle). If you want another great castle ruin in the area, check out Raglan Castle, http://www.castlewales.com/raglan.html
I'm glad to see people are suggesting Penshurst Place for the south of London section- I concur. It seems to be so seldom mentioned on these travel boards that it could belong that elusive collection of "hidden gems" that many visitors say they want. |
<B>polly229</B>: The Great British Heritage sadly is no more. They pulled the plug on it at the end of last year.
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I'm glad to see people are suggesting Penshurst Place for the south of London section- I concur. It seems to be so seldom mentioned on these travel boards that it could belong that elusive collection of "hidden gems" that many visitors say they want.>>
ron, we used to live nearby [it was on our usual route to Tunbridge Wells where we would go for major shopping expeditions] so it's a place i've long known about. I agree that it's a hidden gem - as is most of that part of West Kent and East Sussex. people rave about the Cotswolds, but IMO the Weald is just as beautiful, and so close to London. |
Well, that's a bummer about the British Heritage pass. Like the expression about when a door closes, a window opens. Think the converse is also true. So sometime between '99 and '04 a door opened - many of the museums in London that used to charge admission became free. Guess the end of the Brit. Heritage pass is the window that closed.
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Thanks again for all the input!! It's hard to single out everybody to thank, but I do appreciate ALL comments! DH and I were actually booked to London last fall, but when we arrived at the airport, our flight had been cancelled (!!) so we opted to reschedule. (It worked out okay; DH had just had emergency dental work and wasn't looking forward to the flight anyway!) At that time, we only had six days planned, and we were going to spend them all in London, so frankly, anything extra we do on this trip is "gravy!" :-)
I am continuing to plan, whittling down "this" area, beefing up "that" area, etc. I think sticking to two major attractions a day is a good rule of thumb. Of course, like Texasbookworm, I don't mind doing a "drive-by" if that's the ONLY way I'm going to squeeze something else in! :-P BTW, BigRuss -- the hubby has plenty of say; he's the one who said, "Hey, while we're over there, let's go to Scotland as well!" He's into golf and just is a little bummed that we absolutely WON'T be able to drive up to St. Andrews. :-) I'll post my new itinerary next week for "approval", LOL! Like I said -- everything/anything after London is gravy! :-) |
Dates?
You mentioned fall so if you tell us your actual dates we'd know if your visit is during half term or not. October half term varies from county to county but roughly falls between Oct 24th and Nov 2nd 2012 London will be busier at half term and accommodation might be harder to find or more likely more expensive. Have fun! |
If you have enough time in Edinburgh, you can do a daytrip to St. Andrews by train and bus. Or take one of the bus tours out of Edinburgh that go to St. Andrews and along the coast.
Trip planning is like dieting. You always having to cut out something you really like. Or several things. |
We're planning the last two weeks of September. The only potential "problem" (CHALLENGE!) I see is a Jane Austen festival in Bath during that timeframe, so rooms may be more difficult (and expensive) to come by.
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Okay, I think we’ve got a pretty good “loose” plan! Thanks again to everyone for your input!! :-) I absolutely hated to drop Kent (Sissinghurst, Hever) from our list, but felt it was in the best interest given the time we have. Also hated to cut Wales short, but happily was able to work in Cotswolds and some points of interest on the way to Edinburgh!!
New Plan: Five days in London “proper”, then a daytrip from London to Windsor Castle, Kew Gardens, and Hampton Court Palace. Hopefully we’ll be able to figure out transportation so that we can do all three in one day. Then we pick up our car and begin “meandering”: Winchester Cathedral Salisbury Cathedral Stonehenge Bath Wales: Chepstow Castle, Tintern Abbey Return for drive through Cotswolds: - Castle Combe - Malmesbury - Cirencester - Northleach Side trip to Oxford, return to “main” road - Bourton-on-the-Water - Stow-on-the-World - Moreton-in-Marsh - Stratford-on-Avon York (then as many as we can get to:) Fountains Abbey Rievaulx Abbey Hemsley Castle Byland Abbey Castle Howard Pickering castle Whitby Abbey Richmond Castle Hadrian’s Wall (Gilsland, UK) (as many as we can get to:) Jedburgh Abbey Dryburgh Abbey Kelso Abbey Floors Castle Abbotsford Edinburgh Castle The Royal Mile Holyrood House Stirling Castle (maybe) - one hour north of Edinburgh I realize the end is a little rushed with all the abbeys, but we're working on a driving plan now and want to see as many as we can. If we have to drop one or two, so be it. I also think I've built enough flexibility in the schedule to be, well, flexible! :D Thanks again for everyone's help! |
You really can't do Kew, hampton court and windsor in one day...Hampton court and windor are full days on their own. You wont do any justice in one day so it's just wasting time and money. Pick one and do it well.
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"<i>then a daytrip from London to Windsor Castle, Kew Gardens, and Hampton Court Palace.</i>
Absolutely 100% <u>impossible</u>. It is awfully difficult to do any two of those on the same day but HCP and Kew would be (just) 'doable'. Sorry, you have cut a lot, but the rest of your new plan is still not possible in the 10 days after London. Good start, but unfortunately you need to cut/refine some more. |
Your 'York' section is 5 or 6 days minimum and that's only allowing 1 full day for York.
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I repeat what I said above about estimating driving times--you'll be "safer" in your plans if you DOUBLE whatever google or AAA or Michelin or whatever on-line mapping service you might use. No kidding. We averaged taking 1.5 times as long, but sometimes it was nearly twice. And with an ambitious itinerary like yours, with many many point to point legs, you really gotta allow plenty of time or you will find yourself missing what you most wanted to see or something. Oh, and on that line, if you haven't already, it's really wise to put your most important things first (unless doing so causes too much crisscrossing or backtracking). You CAN have a busy full itinerary (we did and I'd do it the same way again if I had our same boundaries of time and wish lists), BUT I agree with those above who know the area much much better than I and say you probably still need to pare. But what you have left will be amazing so concentrate on enjoying what you CAN get to.
And you said in the first post Once in a Lifetime--well, that attitude or view (or it may be a truth) puts a certain frantic pressure on you. Can you give your mind a bit of relief and think more like Introductory Trip? I mean, you may end up never being able to return, like students sometimes/often only take an Introductory class to something, but that mindset might leave you with a bit more leeway about what is most important this time. Of course, if there are specific personal situations that absolutely dictate this is a one-of trip, then never mind. |
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