Help with Bernese Oberland planning
 

We would like some advice on the itinerary and the best thing to do for rail ticket/passes.

My husband and I are taking our 15-year old granddaughter on a driving trip to Switzerland next summer (July). We have booked 4-nights in Wengen (Baren Hotel). We will park our car in Lauterbrunnen and take the train to/from Wengen on the day of arrival and departure.

Here are our current plans and the cost for 2nd class tickets in BO, we will buy our granddaughter a children's pass. The cost of train/cable is p/p in () in CHF.

Day one: Arrive late afternoon, driving in from Salzburg. Train from Lauterbrunnen to Wengen (6.2)
Day Two: Wengen to Männlichen (23) Walk from Männlichen to Kleine Scheidegg, Kleine Scheidegg to Jungfraujoch (r/t 107), Kleine Scheidegg to Wengen (23)
Day 3: Wengen to Schynige Platte (r/t 79.6), Wengen to Schilthorn (r/t 104.2)
Day 4: Train to Lauterbrunnen (r/t 12.4), drive to Gruyeres and Broc for the cheese and chocolate factories.
Day5: Leaving BO area, train to Lauterbrunnen, drive to Zurich.

The total for the train/cable is over 355CHF, should I get some kind of pass? What kind?

Any suggestions on the itinerary?

Pat

A car is often a liability whe traveling in Switzerland, especially if you plan on parking it for 4 days.

Here are some quick thoughts based on my experience guiding hiking tours in the Alps (alpenwild.com):

1. Wengen is nice, but consider staying in Grindelwald or Lauterbrunnen. If you're going to Schynige Platte and Schilthorn, coming from Wengen adds considerable time. You can still stopover and visit Wengen on your way up to Jungfraujoch.

2. Consider a product such as the Swiss Card (182CHF) which gives you roundtrip from airport or border into Jungfrau, then 50% off all travel within Jungfrau region, including lifts and funiculars.

3. The Jungfraubahnen has a 6-day unlimted travel pass at 195CHF or 145CHF for youth and Swiss Card holders. It includes gondolas like First & Mannlichen, but not Schilthorn.

Enjoy the most splendid mountain scenery in the world, and don't miss Trummelbach Falls

Well... We planned this as a driving trip using Marriott hotels as bases (we used all Marriott points). The only hotel we had to pay for is in Wengen. Here is the itinerary:
3 days Prague
2 days Budapest
4 days Vienna
3 days Salzburg
4 days Wengen
4 days Zurich

We are flying in and out of Munich from LAX, and got a decent car rental rate from Thrifty. With so many stops and Nikki (our granddaughter) doesn't know the meaning of packing light, we decided to drive instead of taking the train.

We plan to do Lauterbrunnen Valley Walk with a detour to Trümmelbach Falls as recommended in Rick Steves book, just don't know when we will fit it in. Nikki insisted on visiting all the chocolate factories in Switzerland, so one of the days in BO is visiting the Nestlé Cailller Chocolate Factory and the cheese factory near there. There are two more chocolate factories near Zurich, we will be there too. Since she is 15, not sure how much longer she will want to travel with us, we try to do what interests her the most. Such are the lives of grandparents... not complaining...

We picked Wengen because there are no cars, and the rave review of the gourmet quality dinner (we booked half board) at the Baren Hotel in Virtual Tourist.

The trip is still 7 months away and we are already excited.

Pat

I would suggest adding atleast 1 day (if not two) to the Bernese Oberland portion, and reducing the same from Zurich. You are reaching BO on the afternoon of Day 1, after a very very long drive from Salzburg. Doubt if you will have energy left to do anything at all on Day 1. And trying to fit Schynige Platte and Schilthorn on the same day may be ambitious.

While going to Schilthorn, would recommend that you go first to Lauterbrunnen, catch the lift to Grutschalp, and then do the hike from Grutschalp to Murren. From Murren, you could ride the cable car to Schilthorn.

Leave Schynige Platte for another day. And you are missing out on Grindelwald and First, which also require a day (or atleast half a day).

Too much to see and too little time !

Since Zurich is only 80 miles away, we can leave BO later in the afternoon (before dark), that should give us an extra day.

We have packed our days full in Zurich too, going to Lucern, drive to Flawil (Maestrani Chocolate), St. Gallen, Appenzell, and and the Lindt Chocolate in Kilchberg. All that should be doable in two full days, we need to leave early the last day for Munich to catch our flight home.

Thanks for the suggestion, we would never have thought about leaving late otherwise. We could actually take our luggage to our car in Lauterbrunnen in the morning, this way we don't have to return to Wengen.

Pat

I have visited the Berner Oberland quite a few times, including the summers of 2008 and 2007.

Your plan is a good one, however I don't think your plan to travel to the Jungfraujoch is what you need to do. There are several reasons for that statement. First you have no guarantee that the day will not be cloudy. Rain in the area is quite common. We were there in late June - early July this past year and out of the 7 days we were there, 3 of them were socked in while 4 were satisfactory.

Second, if you go to the top of the Männlichen which is a quick cable car ride from Wengen, and take the walk to Kleine Scheidegg you will walking directly toward some incredible scenery. I doubt if you will want to sprint down the hill and not savor the views in front of you. Once you reach Kleine Scheidegg you can purchase a ticket to the top, but by the time you get there the tour mobs will be arriving from Lauterbrunnen and Grindelwald.

I would suggest that if the day is clear that you head for the Jungfraujoch first. You will already have a head start on the people coming up from lower elevations.

Once at the Joch itself, you can get some fabulous views of the Aletschgletscher that flows south toward the Rhone. Another interesting activity is to walk the snow track to the hikers' shelter on the flank of the Mönch, which is the adjoining peak to the east.
The shelter, known as the Möchsjochhütte, sells food to all arrivals.

Don't let the similarity of the name to the English word hut mislead you; the shelter has sleeping facilities for 125 hikers plus the staff.

I am a little ambivalent my self about Schynige Platte. I prefer an alternative. Travel to Grindelwald and take the gondola to First, which is the end station. From there walk across the meadow to the restaurant at Grosse Scheidegg and take the post bus back to Grindelwal. (Private cars are not allowed on the road as a general rule.) The restaurant at First has a very nice cafe and a large viewing terrace from which a huge section of the main range of the Berner Oberland is visible on a clear day.

Some of the best pictures I have of the Berner Oberland were taken from that terrace with a telephoto lens.

I might add that while the Schilthorn will give you a great view, you will be looking at the same mountains from a slightly different angle. In that sense it is slightly redundant, but the different viewing angle might be well worth the expense. I that one is a question of personal preference.

Your planned trips are to some extent taking you to similar views of the same mountains. The main advantage of going to the Männlichen is that you get tremendous view of the north face of the Eiger, the Mönch, and the Jungfrau. You will looking directly into the cirque of the Jungfgrau Glacier which a fantastic example of glaciation and how glaciers erode mountains.

The north face of the Eiger is awesome. As you descend toward Kleine Scheigg, photo opportunities for both the Eiger and the Mönch will just about cause you to fill a digital camera chip of 1 gigabyte.

I know personal opinions differ, but to me the Mönch is a gorgeous mountain. But you can also get view of the Fiescherhorn, particulary if you go to First.

Given that your trips to have a slight sense of redundancy you might consider an extension for the First trip. Take the cable car which is located slightly down hill from the church in Grindelwald up to a station called Pfinfstegg. From there walk west, to your right relative to the approach to the station. The trail leads to a site known as Stieregg. It is a decent walk, and boots and hiking poles are very helpful. Once you are at that rough pasture area you are looking into the inner mountain world of glaciers and peaks in a manner that is up close and personal. When we were there last summer the sun was strong and suddenly a mass of meltwater would break through and ice dam with a loud crack and cascade down the side of the mountain with a roar and a plume of snow and ice.

As for the pass, I usually buy the Half Fare Card which yields 50% off of everything including the Schilthorn. There is also a Jungfraubahn pass, but it does not include the Schilthorn. The last leg of that trip, from Mürren to the top is expensive.

If you are a semi serious photographer, bear in mind that you will be shooting into the sun. Most of your subjects will be back lit. Most digital cameras have a distinct tendency to over expose and capture too much blue. I experimented with quite a few exposures in the manual mode. I started with my smallest lens opening and a relative high shutter speed and backed the shutter speed down and checked the results until I had found a speed that did not produce overexposed frames.

I just deleted quite few of the ones that were too dark.

To prevent too much blue is a difficult task. My camera has a way where I can taper the amount of blue in the exposure, but I still end up correcting once I get home.
(I use Photoshop for that chore.)
Some of the scenes I bracketed - on exposure on the mark, one about an f stop above and one an f stop under. If you only shoot in full automatic mode, you will most likely end up with blue, over exposed pictures.

I know I did in the summer of 2007. Last year I got better results. Takes some learning, but the results are worth it.

Well those are my thoughts based on quite a few visits.

Dear Bob, you have no idea how much we appreciate your input. Rick was so glad that you mentioned the great pictures that you took with a telephoto lens. We bought one for Africa last year, we will definitely take it with us to this trip.

So, now I have to re-think my days in the BO. Depending on the weather, I will try to do the following.

1. Go to Jungfraujoch first thing in the morning.
2. Go to First and Pfingstegg.
3. Chocolate
4. Go to Schilthorn before leaving for Zurich.

We will do the Lauterbrunnen Valley walk if we have the time or the weather is bad.

Is there anyway to squeeze in the walk from Männlichen to Kleine Scheidegg?

Does it make sense to go to the Chocolate factory on our way to Zurich?

Thanks again for the detailed suggestions.

Pat

Bob brown is one of the most knowledgeable posters on the Switzerland site, and I too have benefited immensely from his inputs. His recommendation on going to Jungfraujoch early in the morning is a good one, but note that he also stresses the high quality of the walk from Mannlichen to Kleine Scheidegg, which in my opinion should not be missed at any costs, as it is way too beautiful to pass up on.

I would recommend a very early start to the day, going to Mannlichen, walking to KS (which takes about 1 hr 20 mins or so), and then proceeding up to Jungfrau. The earlier you get up to the top, the better. Try not to delay your return journey beyond 3pm, as otherwise you will be caught up in a surge of people. It is all doable, and well worth it, provided you start bright and early.

And be prepared to switch your itinerary for the various days, depending upon the weather forecast.

>Does it make sense to go to the Chocolate factory on our way to Zurich?


Depends. I am not sure about Flawil, but the Lindt factory doesn´t give tours - they just have a shop. And almost the full range of the Lindt products is available in any large-ish supermarket (at least in Coop, Migros tends to have it´s own brands)

What do you mean by a 'children's pass'?

The Family Passes, where kids 15 and under go free on everything the parent buys a ticket on or uses a pass on, i thought were only for parents, not grandparents, accompanying kids. I may well be wrong.

Take a long look at www.swisstravelsystem.ch/en

Thanks everyone for your help.

How about this itinerary?

• Get a early start: Wengen to Männlichen, Walk from Männlichen to Kleine Scheidegg, Kleine Scheidegg to Jungfraujoch, head down before 3pm
• Wengen to First, walk the Lauterbrennen Valley and Trümmelbach Falls
• Lauterbrunnen to Schilthorn, visit Mürren
• Nestlé Cailller Chocolate Factory and cheese factory in Gruyeres

We will have almost 4 full days... Depending on the weather, we can do either one of the last two on our way to Zurich. In a perfect world, we will have perfect weather for all the days.

We will buy two Swiss Half Fare Cards and one Junior Card.

Did I cramp too much into the schedule? Did I make the most of the 4 days? I am very open to suggestions and they are appreciated.

Pat

For help with figuring out the best rail passes, call Budget Europe Travel Services (800-441-9413 or 800-441-2387). There is no fee for their services, and they have tremendously knowledgeable people. I found out about them on this site and used them for our trip to the BO in 2006.

I used BETS last year for my tickets from Amsterdam to Brugge to Paris. You are right, they were great.

I might buy the passes when I am in Switzerland or in Austria though, since I don't have to worry about seats.

Pat

You don't have to buy your tickets from them. I just talked to a representative to figure out what type of passes we should buy. To get the reduced fare for our son, I think we had to buy the the Swiss Card in Switzerland.

Personally, I think Gruyeres and Broc are a bit out of the way for the BO. I have been to both and they were great for a day trip from Montreux/Vevey area. The cheese factory is a short stop (maybe 30 minutes including shopping for cheese). Please be aware that you need to make reservations for the Cailler Chocolate Factory tour (www.cailler.ch).

I would suggest staying in Lauterbrunnen. One trip we stayed in Wegen...very nice. This past trip (just got home on Nov 9) we stayed in Lauterbrunnen. What a cute town. We stayed at the Hotel Staubbach. We had a corner room with a balcony that looked at Staubbach Fall, the mountains and the meadows with the cows. We even watched (from our balcony) the cows walking through town each morning and evening as they went from their home to the grazing pasture. Lauterbrunnen is also convenient to both Jungfraujoch and Schilthorn. If you only have time for one of the mountain tops, I'd pick Jungfraujoch, especially with a 15 year old...much more to do.

If you do not have time for Trummelbach Falls, consider the short but steep hike up to Staubbach Falls. It is at the southern end of the Lauterbrunnen village. You walk through a tunnel and up some stairs to end up behind the waterfall.

Have a great trip. Before our son left for college, he went on all of our trips. It is fun to see places through the eyes of a teenager.

Before you go up to the Jungfraujoch, you will have to go in and buy a ticket. Be sure to look at the TV monitor that will show you the webcam at the top. When we were there in June, the weather was beautiful at the station but totally socked in at the top. We waited an hour or so hoping it would clear out but it only did for a few minutes. Even with the Swiss Pass discount, it is still very expensive. We chose not to go.

We were lucky enough to have a fabulous morning at the Schilthorn. We went up early but by the time we left around noon, the clouds were rolling in. The Schilthorn was fabulous and much cheaper. The best part to me was that you got a 1st class view of the Swiss Peaks where as, when you are at the Jungfraujoch you are on top of them.

Your revised itinerary for Day 1 and Day 3 are fine. However, your Day 2 is too cramped. To go to First, you have to go to Grindelwald, which is a different valley than Lauterbrunnen. If you want to enjoy the hikes that Bob brown has recommended (from First), it will take up a full day. Another excellent hike from First is the one to Lake Bachalpsee.

The tour of Lauterbrunnen valley has to be done on another day, as Lauterbrunnen valley is on a different side of the mountain. In fact you have to go through Lauterbrunnen to reach Murren, and then on to Schilthorn. So it may make sense to combine it with Day 3, but it will make for a very very long day.

Would urge you to drop the idea of the chocolate and cheese factories (since you are doing that from Zurich anyway), and concentrate on witnessing the natural splendor of one of the most beautiful regions in the world. I would suggest leaving the Lauterbrunnen valley and Trummelbach falls for Day 4, just before you leave for Zurich.

For Day 3, I would suggest going to Grutschalp, walking to Murren, and then taking the cable car to Schilthorn. Another rewarding detour is to walk from Murren to Gimmelwald (or take the lift), which takes about 25 minutes, and then taking the lift down from Gimmelwald to Stechelberg, which is on the floor of the Lauterbrunnen valley. Truly eye-popping !

Ok, you guys talked me into it, we will do the Nestlé Chocolate Factory from Zurich... The distance from Zurich is twice as long as from BO, but timewise it is only 30 minutes longer ... must be a better road.

On day three, I will follow IndianCouple's suggestion: Grutschalp, walking to Murren, and then taking the cable car to Schilthorn.

I will drop the Lauterbrunnen Valley walk on the day two and do it the day we are leaving BO.

Connie, I will make sure to check the webcamb in Kleine Scheidegg station for weather in Jungfraujoch. We live in Southern California so we tend to take sunshine for granted.

Barb, I actually e-mailed both Hotel Staubbach and Hotel Baren and both replied that they have rooms available. The prices are the same too, 200CHF per night for three people, but Baren offers half board at 250CHF per night. I was really torn between the two until I read somewhere that the hourly church bell near Staubbach kept them up all night. Did that happen to you?

I went on the Cailler website but didn't see any information on tours. Is the reservation by phone?

I am so glad to have received all your suggestions. I really underestimated the time needed to travel from point to point in order to truly enjoy the view.

Pat

Hi Pat,

Just wanted to say that the scenery from Wengen is simply stunning. While Lauterbrunnen may be a little more convenient to trips to the other side of the valley, it sits in the valley. Wengen on the other hand sits on a ledge overlooking the valley with the snow capped Alps all around you. It's an amazing place.


Paul

We ourselves stayed at Lauterbrunnen at Hotel Staubbach. The business about the church bell keeping you awake all night is a gross exaggeration. However, although we really liked our stay at Lauterbrunnen, I think Wengen is as wonderful a place to stay, and perhaps even prettier. Location-wise, I don't think there are considerable advantages of one location over the other. Lauterbrunnen is a little closer to Murren, but Wengen is closer to Mannlichen and Jungfrau. And both locations are about equally distant from Grindelwald and First.

And we did have dinner at Hotel Baren at Wengen, and it was excellent. So if you have set your heart on staying at Wengen, follow it and you wont go wrong. You wont make a mistake either if you change your mind and opt for Lauterbrunnen.

Have fun, and pray for good weather !

Hi PR,

>3 days Prague
2 days Budapest
4 days Vienna
3 days Salzburg
4 days Wengen
4 days Zurich

We are flying in and out of Munich from LAX,<

Where are you picking up the car?
Where are you dropping it?

There are usually ver steep fees for pickup/drop off in different countries.

Have you checked www.kemwel.com, www.autoeurope.com, www.gemut.com?

Enjoy your adventure.

((I))

Thanks Indiancouple, that's very reassureing, we are sticking with Wengen.

Hi Ira,

We are picking up a car in Munich and dropping off at the same location, renting from Thrifty. 3 weeks of medium size car is around $850. Auto Europe is quite a bit more.

We had a strange experience with Auto Europe about 4 years ago... Their Rome office had moved, but we didn't find out until we stood in front of the office and saw the notice on the door. Took some doing to find their new location as the notice on the door was in Italian. Then return the car in Venice is strange too. There was no parking... We had to find a parking on the street on our own. That was stressful as the streets were really crowded. Nobody from Auto Europe tried to help or came out to check the car, we just drop the key off after parking. No problem with the car or the process though. If their price in Munich is good, we would've rented from them.

Pat

Just 2 things -

Yes, Lindt no longer has factory tours in Kilchberg. I would drop that trip.

Wengen is so special. Not really a big trip from there to Lauterbrunnen to head toward Grindelwald - maybe a pretty 20 minutes by train. I would keep it in the itinerary.

The Maennlichen to KS walk is wonderful and only takes around 1-1.5 hours. I would also do that early before the Jungfrau Top of the World ride. Be sure to plan this for a decent day for the views.

There are train passes for the whole area - I don't know the prices but easy to find on internet.

gruezi

I also walked from Kl Scheidegg down to Wengen - a sweet gentle walk on a trail wide enough for mountain bikes to roll down - i took the train up to Jungfraujoch and but on the way back i got off at Kleine Scheidegg and strolled down to Wengen - a gorgeous walk overlooking the Lauterbrunnen Valley - cows along the way, etc. I'm an old fart so the walk must be easy for anyone. Cheers

Hi Pat---I didn't have time to read thoroughly through everything, but here are my thoughts. We've done 4 trips to this area, the last 2 with a teenage daughter---who absolutely loves Switzerland. She is hoping for another trip as a high school graduation present. I hope to grant her wish.

Congratulations on choosing the Bären. We discovered this gem on our last visit (the first time we included Wengen as an overnight stop). The rooms are simple and basic (just to our taste) and the food is terrific. Frau Brunner is a friendly and gracious hostess, and will look after you well. Herr Brunner seems to spend all his time in the kitchen---we never had a chance to meet him.

I don't know what you finally decided for your days, but this is what I came up with as I was reading through. As I understand it, you have 4 nights in Wengen, so that is 3 full days, plus the day you depart for Zürich. I would put Grindelwald (with visits to First, Pfingstegg, etc.) on that day, since you can drive to Grindelwald. That will make for a more leisurely "chocolate day", since you wouldn't have to drive to Zürich (which is in the opposite direction) the same day. And maybe there would be time that day for a visit to Montreux and Chateau de Chillon (a favorite with our daughter) or a loop route with a short stop to walk around Gstaad (unless it is during the Swiss Open, when Gstaad might be crowded).

so my thoughts look like this:

Day 1---travel to Wengen. Take a walk around the village, and enjoy your dinner at the Bären!

Day 2---Männlichen cable car; walk up to the top of the little "Gipfel" to a view down and over to Schynige Platte; then walk to Kleine Scheidegg (have lunch on the deck of one of the restaurants you pass before you arrive at the more crowded KS area). Train up to Jungfraujoch if the weather cooperates, then back to Wengen. (You could also go up the Jungfraujoch first thing, if you care to follow the convention that the weather is more likely to be clear then. that has actually not been our experience; you just take it when it comes. As for the direction of the wlak between Männlichen and KS, it's the same path, and most of the time the Jungfrau is off to the side. If you are walking away and it is behind you. . . just stop and turn around now and then).

Day 3---did you already drop the idea of Schynige Platte AND Schilthorn? I hope so---that is too much in one day. You can combine Schilthorn with the Lauterbrunnen valley walk and Trummelbach Falls, and even have time for a look around Gimmelwald and the walk from Grutschalp to Mürren. Again, check the weather before you pay for and ascend the last leg of the cablecar ride up the Schilhorn, and only go if it is (mostly) clear. The rest of the loop---Lauterbrunnen to Grutschalp to Mürren, then to Gimmelwald, down to Stechelberg and the walk back to Lauterbrunnen---is worth doing rain or shine. (In fact this is always our rainy day option).


Day 4---Chocolate Day! Sounds like fun.

Day 5---depart Wengen, pick up car and drive to Grindelwald. Park and do whatever of Bob_Brown's recommendations you choose (hopefull all?) If you ride the gondola up to First, it is well worth the easy walk out to the BAchalpsee for a classic view of the Wetterhorn and peaks across the valley. The Pfingstegg to Stieregg walk is also short and easy, and will give you a glimpse of the tunble-down face of a glacier.

Depart late afternoon for your drive back to Zürich.

This board is great, I have always come here to get ideas when I am planning a trip and it has never failed me. I have to print out all your inputs so I can digest it.

Oh, Enzian, the itinerary you designed for us was simply fabulous! Most likely we will follow it, weather permitting.

Yes, I have scratched the idea of going to the Schynige Platte all together, I will combine the Lauterbrennen Valley walk with the trip to Schilthorn as you suggested.

I was thinking of cutting a day in Zurich and staying a day in either Montreux or Vevey. Is three nights in Zurich good enough? While in Zurich, we want to go to Luzern for one day and to the St. Gallen/Appenzell area on the other.

Any suggestions on lodging in Montreux/Vevey? How about Les Négociants in Vevey?

Palan, Rick just had surgery on his left toe from which they cut out his joint and fused the bones together with screws. He still can't walk normally yet, and I doubt he will be doing much more than 2 hours a day. He also qualifies as an old fart.

Pat

Pat, forgot to mention. When you walk from Grutschalp to Murren, at about the halfway point you cross a small village called Winteregg. There is a lovely restaurant there (the only one, so you cant miss it), which has fresh farmer's food worth dying for. We had cheese rostis there for lunch, and no other Swiss meal even came close. If by chance you are doing this stretch on a Sunday, they have an Alpine Farmers Breakfast buffet, which attracts a huge crowd of over 300 people, and I am told is fabulous.

In Lauterbrunnen, the best meals are at Hotel Oberland. In Grindelwald, there are multiple options.

While returning from Murren to Lauterbrunnen, do take the route via Gimmelwald and Stechelberg. You can either walk downhill from Murren to Gimmelwald, to take the cable car, which stops at Gimmelwald. Roam around Gimmelwald for a while, and the short cable car ride from Gimmelwald to Stechelberg will cause your eyes to pop up. Truly memorable. From Stechelberg, a Post Bus will bring you back to Lauterbrunnen.

Enzian's suggestion of combining Lauterbrunnen valley and Trummelbach falls with Murren and Schilthorn are theoretically doable, but IMO very difficult to squeeze into one day. Trummelbachfalls close pretty early in the evening. Again, you will have to start the day very very early to fit it all in.

indiancouple--you are correct; it would be a long day and require an early start. I believe it took us 6 hours as a roundtrip loop from Mürren, including a walk from there to Gimmelwald (instead of riding the cablecar), and a leisurely lunch at Hotel Oberland in Lautrbrunnen. That was without the trip up the Schilthorn, but with a lot of time at Trummelbach Falls, which I found very intriguing. Still, I think it is all doable in a day.

Pat, I think the idea of trading 1 of 4 nights in Zürich for a night in Vevey is a good one. It would give you and our granddaughter a taste of the French-speaking part of Switzerland, as well as time to enjoy Chateau de Chillon, which is a delightful castle to visit.

I say Vevey rather than Montreux as a place to stay, as I always find the smaller villages nicer. Vevey is also right on the lake. You might check the dates of the Montreux jazz festival and consider the possible complications before you commit to the idea, but you probably will be fine staying in Vevey in any case.

This should be combined with/consecutive to your chocolate day (Broc), so it involves rearranging the schedule a bit. But not much. Make Day 4 your Grindelwald day (and include Trummelbach Falls if you ran out of time the previous day). Return to Wengen that night as planned, and on Day 5 depart, pick up the car, and head out for your chocolate day. Spend that night in Vevey, and the following day drive to Zürich.

This still gives you 3 nights/2 full days in Zürich. You will spend one full day in Luzern?

I'm not sure where the Marriot is in Zürich, but if it is convenient to go to the Altstadt for dinner, be sure and enjoy La Mere Catherine. They have a delightful patio and a fresh, modern menu. It is one of our daughter's favorite places anywhere. We just stumbled upon this place on our 2005 visit, but for 2007 I made reservations in advance---by post (they didn't have a website). When we arrived, we were famous (and were treated very well).

Hopefully Rick's foot will be fully healed so he can walk easily and without pain.

You will find information on the chocolate tour in Broc by going to www.cailler.ch/en/vis/default.asp.

>Grutschalp, walking to Murren, and then taking the cable car to Schilthorn.

Reverse the order. Schilthorn, then down to Mürren, walk to Grütschalp. On sunny summer days, the mornings are usually cloudless but from about noon there are often clouds around mountaintops. The earlier you are up there, the better vews you will get.
Anyway, decide on all mountain trips on the respective morning based on weather. It doesn't make sense to spend money and see nothing but thick grey fog.

Montreux Jazz Festival is July 3 through July 18. If we add a day in Vevey it will be on July 16. Here is another problem... The more I looked into the Vevey area, the better it looked. If I drop one night in Salzburg (from 3nts to 2nts), we can have 2 nights in Vevey. Should I do that? How crowded will Vevey be during the festival?

The restaurant La Mere Catherine that you mentioned, is it in Zurich Altstadt Hotel? Do you have a phone number or address? When I do a Google search, the results were confusing.

We love good food (not expensive food), so keep the recommendations on restaurants coming. So far I have:
The restaurant at First
Hotel Oberland in Lauterbrunnen
Winteregg
Altstadt in Zurich

Pat

in Montreaux, Le Chalet, has a glorious, unimpeded view of Lake Leman. The menu is french/swiss, the price is reasonable at around 20-25 chf ave. entree, lunch menu without drinks. just a few hundred yards from the train station.

Mere Catherine
Naegelihof 3 by the Grossmunster

044 250 59 40

www.commercio.ch
www.arthouse.ch

You can reserve when you get to Zurich - should not be a problem. I'm not aware that it is in a hotel but it's in a close little tucked away square so perhaps there is a hotel above it I haven't noticed.

For a fun and popular vegetarian spot try:

Hiltl
Sihlstrasse 28
8001 Zurich
Phone 044 227 70 00
Fax 044 227 70 07
[email protected]

On Bellevue, near Globus is a wonderful bratwurst stand that is always crowded. Just in front of the COOP there is a great pretzel stand as well.

My teens love the Spaghetti Factory. Not really Swiss, but a good meal in a cozy spot for not too much money. It's in Altstadt.

Enjoy!

gruezi

Ah gruezi, you beat me to it! I think I confused things with the "La". It's just Mere Catherine. It is not in a hotel, just in one of the narrow alleyways in the Altstadt.

Here's a review from the NY Times:

http://travel.nytimes.com/travel/gui...=1154654632754

And another review with photos:

http://www.theswitzerlandtraveler.co...mre-catherine/

We have only dined outside on the patio. I don't know if I would like it as much inside. (My motto is "any meal outdoors is a good one"). It is not inexpensive, but the food is very good, especially if you like salads and fish dishes (made with local lake fish).

Found it, thanks guys. The restaurant is 1 1/2 mile from the Marriott. Sounds great, will give it a try.

Any thoughts on cancel one night in Salzburg? How about being in Vevey during the Jazz Festival?

Pat

Pat, I would suggest canceling one night from Vienna instead of Salzburg, but I am sure that others may disagree.

Ditto the recommendation about Hiltl restaurant at Zurich. It is awesome.

Please note that the terrace restaurants at First (and also at Mannlichen) are great places to sit around for views etc, but are not exactly gourmet food. Just normal cafe food, but great views.

Pat_Rick,
We spent 6 nights in Wengen last summer – and it was not enough. I agree about reducing the time in Zurich and adding it to Wengen. We loved Wengen and are glad we stayed there and not in Lauterbrunnen. The views from Wengen are just fantastic. Murren, too – that would be another good choice, although more remote, so would require more time to travel to and from.

We did not have a car for the time we spent in Wengen, and it worked out great. Swiss trains are amazing! We used a 50% half card, and I think it was a good choice.
We did the trips to Jungfraujoch , Schilthorn, Lauterbrunnen Valley, Mannlichen to Kleine Scheidegg – they are all fantastic and would recommend them all. True, we were very lucky with 6 sunny days, so we had time to do all the things we wanted. Well, almost all…at least the ‘big’ ones.

Listen to bob-brown, take the gondola to First – it’s a full day, bit so worth it. You can see the paragliders taking off from there, quite a show. I don’t think you can combine it with Lauterbrunnen Valley in one day, but maybe if you get an early start… I don’t know. Try to make it to Trummelbach Falls, it’s spectacular.

I would skip the cheese, chocolate tours and spend all the time in the mountains. And I am big chocolate lover – and swiss chocolate…yum, let’s not go there. On the other hand, your granddaughter would probably like the chocolate day :)
I’m sure you’ll live your time in Wengen.

Ohh, one more thing – 4 days in Vienna and 3 in Salzburg sound good, don’t cut from Vienna – maybe from Salzburg, considering that you’ll have other mountains to see on this trip. Have fun.

Dear Pat,

This is just the opinion of someone with 2 teen-aged girls...FWIW...

Both of my girls LOVED Salzburg but were less keen on Vienna. They even really loved the SofM tour which they didn't even want to take. I just asked my daughter what she suggested and she said SALZBURG!

She also (at 17) enjoyed the Jazz festival for a day, it wasn't "crazy" she says, lots of food stands and typical Swiss festival things to do.

I LOVE Wengen. I am dreaming of it right now. My girls aren't hikers (at least not with us, but probably would be with their grandparents) so they haven't been there. But it is just so quintessentially Swiss in it's beauty. Don't miss it and the various spectacular excursions from there. If you click on my name or search here under Wengen, you will find a short trip report of mine from a long weekend I took there this fall.

We live in Zuerich, and although it sometimes gets a bad rap here on Fodor's, my teens really love it here. It's a beautiful spot on a pretty lake with a nice old town, shops, cafes, pretzels etc. In July, it is just lovely and your granddaughter will enjoy it. Bring your sunglasses and take a boat to Rapperswil so she can get some sun and you can enjoy the views. There is a cool boardwalk across the lake there and my girls always enjoy walking it even though they aren't big on walks or hiking. There are some lovely inns at the waterside there for a nice lunch or just a good ice cream dish. You can linger as long as you like.

In Zurich, there are plenty of outdoor spots on the lake for lunch or a soda and to watch the scene and wile away the afternoon.

BTW, Mere Catherine is very charming indoors as well. I've never been there in good weather so that's all I know of it. I would also bring your chocolate-loving granddaughter to Spruengli on Bahnhofstrasse. It is a Zuerich institution. You can have dessert there or lunch. Don't order bottled water though. It's 5chf a bottle. Ask for Hahnenwasser (water from the tap.)

In case there are no fondue spots open elsewhere on your trip, there is one that serves year-round in Zurich in the old town. The name is escaping me this minute, but I'll post back.

gruezi

gruezi---is it the "Swiss Chuchi" restaurant in Hotel Adler?

http://www.hotel-adler.ch/content-n50-sD.html