HELP! Where to spend a few days in Switzerland
 

Hi all! I'm throwing together a very last minute trip to Europe and will have some down time to spend in Switzerland. I've never been and really don't know that much about the country, so I need some help. Here's the background:

I'll start in Zurich. I'm already scheduled to be there for one day. I figure I should stay at least another day. Do you think two full days/nights in Zurich will be enough, or will I not be ready to leave?

Then I'll have two to three more days I could spend in Switzerland. I'd like to go somewhere close enough (1-2 hours by train), and ideally somewhere I could fly to Oslo from. If you could pick, which city would you do? Luzern, Basel, Bern, or something totally different? I'm figuring Geneva might be too far to go. Would two full days/nights be enough in one of these cities, or would I feel too overwhelmed?

I'll be traveling alone and I'll have already done some mountain hiking so that's not super important. I'd want somewhere I can wander around and navigate fairly easily and obviously somewhere I feel safe, but overall I'm not looking for any particular activities. I'd just like to experience life in whichever city/region you think is Switzerland's finest. Recommend away!

For anyone who has never been to Switzerland and for a few days i will recommend the fab Jungfrau Region in the environs of Interlaken and staying in the Alps in cream spots like Wengen or Grindelwald - the high Alps - a myriad of hiking paths - a gaggle of aerial cableways - lake boats on scenic lakes Brienz or Thun - Swiss cities are nice but are just nice cities - the Jungfrau Region is extraordinary IMO.The Interlaken area has direct trains from Zurich that only take at most a few hours.

I should also mention I'm on a fairly tight budget. So no resorts or nice accommodations, unfortunately :(

Zurich is primarily a business city and you don;t need to spend any time there unless you especially want to visit one of the museums.

Lucerne (an hour away by train) is a much better center for a tourist (cute old tow, ancient town walls, quaint bridge, right on a lake with several boat rides taking you to a couple of mountains - Pilatus and Titlis you can ascend - and other cute villages to see).

For the real mountains you should go to the Berner Oberland (up from Interlaken) and pick one of the mountain villages (Wengen or ?) to do a couple of hikes from, or ascend the Jungfrau by train and/or cable car (more than 12,000) feet.

Can't imagine there's anyplace in Switzerland you wouldn;t feel safe (except a dark alley alone at 3 am).

Hello Molly :)

"<i>I'd just like to experience life in whichever city/region you think is Switzerland's finest.</i>"

Having said that, I would highly concur with Palenque, that the Jungfrau Region is "extraordinary" and fits your comment about Switzerland's finest.

However, Switzerland is expensive. Not knowing your budget parameters, it is difficult to recommend anything.

Staying in the Alps, at the low end of a budget, you might try this mountain hostel in Grindelwald Grund:

http://www.jungfrauferien.ch/index-e...ion=7&region=1

The cities you mentioned are good cities, but for me, nothing beats the mountains. Even if I were there for just a couple days without a train pass (again, depending on your budget -- trains can be expensive), I could just walk the trails in town or up the hills a ways and have a great time. Take the Post Bus as an alternative to the train. You might be surprised just where it goes.

But if you want Luzern, Basel, etc., that's a totally different experience. Not a bad experience, just not the mountains, which is what I'm after these days.

Happy travels!

Thanks everyone for all the great suggestions so far. I must add, I'll be hiking the alps from Austria, through Liechtenstein, to Zurich for a week before this, so regardless what I decide to do, I will have experienced the mountains!

Who is going to be your chaperone? Babies aren't allowed to travel freely through Switzerland, just so you know; so you should figure that out first.

Take a look at Stein am Rhein. It's really charming.

I should also mention I'm on a fairly tight budget. So no resorts or nice accommodations, unfortunately>

well IME the Jungfrau area - especially Grindelwald and Interlaken have some of the very very cheapest accommodations in Switzerland - you will spend much much more for hotels in any Swiss city but since this area attracts zillions of hikers, skiers in winter, etc. it has oodles of nice but really, for Switzerland, inexpensive places. A stay here should be much cheaper than elsewhere.

That does sound beautiful. Since I'll be traveling alone, do you think I'd feel isolated in the Jungfrau area? My ideal would be strolling around, sitting in cafes people watching, etc.

I'd usually suggest the Berner Oberland, but it sounds as if you'd prefer a city, so Luzern might be a good option. It fits most of your criteria, and as a bonus, it's close to Engelberg, which will give you a nice taste of the Swiss Alps. As far as budget goes, well, Switzerland isn't inexpensive by any stretch.

If you do decide to visit the Berner Oberland, I suggest Lauterbrunnen, which makes a perfect base for visiting the entire area. It's in a valley surrounded by sheer cliffs. The scenic trains and cable cars aren't cheap, but there are a few hostels there you might want to look into, although they might be booked if you're going soon.

I don't think you'd feel isolated, especially staying at a hostel. There are some cafes in Lauterbrunnen, but it's a small village. You could always people watch at the train station, which is a major transportation hub in the BO - loads of people coming and going on their way to the Jungfrau.

http://www.valleyhostel.ch/pages/en/home.php?lang=EN

www.rivieralodge.ch is a great hostel right on Lac Leman in Vevey (1 hour outside Geneva) I know you said Geneva might be too far (6 hours by train from Zurich) but Vevey/Montreux offers the people-watching, fabulous cafes and street-life, not isolated at all, feeling you are seeking... with spectacular views of vineyards, the Alps, the lake, etc. Easy train ride to Geneva for your onward flight to Oslo.
www.montreux.ch to see an overview of the area

There are just too many options! Thanks everyone for all your suggestions. Sounds like I'll definitely have to make another trip back to Switzerland.

I'm only going to have 4.5 days/4 nites here before I head to Oslo (although if convinced, I could stay a wee bit longer). One of those days/nites will for sure be spent in Zurich, but from there I am free as a bird. My thought is I'll do one day in a mountain setting and two days in a city. What about this: Zurich to Interlaken for 1.5 days/1 nite, then either Interlaken to Bern or Luzern (and then back to Zurich to catch my flight) or Interlaken to Geneva (where I can stay to catch my flight) for 2 days/2 nites. Looks like I have to fly out of Zurich or Geneva to get reasonable airfare. What would you do?

Thank you all so much for your help with this. I know a lot of you are really recommending mountain towns, which would be awesome, but just as an FYI I'll be coming from five days in Lech and St. Anton Austria and Vaduz Liechtenstein, so although one day in Interlaken doesn't feel like much, at least I'll have had some other mountain experience.

Switzerland has gone from a place I knew nothing about to a destination I'm already planning a return visit!

The more I think of it, the less I recommend Zurich. It seems to me it was rather boring. I remember almost nothing about it, except that we had to park our car far away from the city and then ride a bus back. Otherwise the parking fees would have been outrageous.

We did visit a church, which was pretty drab looking except for the Chagall stained glass windows.

Switzerland is beautiful, but in my opinion, Zurich ain't.

Go to Ascona for something different. It will give you an Italian feeling but you're still in Switzerland!

Hi MollyM,

The problem is that, despite the PR and the hype, Interlaken isn't really in the mountains. Interlaken is a big old touristy town that sits in the flats between two lakes, and you look up at the mountains. It will take you another 40 minutes or so to get to a mountain village or another hour or so to get to the peak of one of the mountains. Interlaken itself is the start point of trips into the mountains, but doesn't have a lot going for it otherwise (unless you just like Hooter's restaurants).

So if you really want to be in the mountains, head to one of the car-free villages there, Wengen or Mürren. If you don't want to go that far, stay in an interesting city like Thun.

If it were me, I would pick either Thun or Luzern for the full time and not split up the time and hassle with the packing & unpacking.

Good luck!

s

With only two days, spend your time in one place.

If you're opting out of staying in the mountains for these two days, I'd choose Luzern over Interlaken any day of the week.

Now here's a new twist. If you had the choice, would you spend a more leisurely six days (two days each) in Luzern, Interlaken/surrounding mountain region, Bern, OR would you do three days split between Interlaken/surrounding mountain region and Luzern and then head to Oslo for a few days?

IMO, you would not have to switch hotels every 2 nights (in option #1). Luzern-Bern is just 1hr by train, so you can make Bern an easy and quick day trip from Luzern.

Personally, I think Zürich can be pretty cool. Especially for younger people (not that I would still count myself among those), it is one of the hotspots for off-the-beaten-Heidiland-chalet-fondue-track evening entertainment. So if you like to sample something less cosy and quaint, want to check out clubs or bars after your hike through the Alps, Zürich is a good place to be.

Given the choice you mention, I'd spend three nights in Luzern and three nights in the BO (but definitely NOT Interlaken). I don't like to switch hotels any more than I have to, so it's a no brainer for me. You can make a stop in Bern on the way or on a day trip as mentioned by Cowboy.

Molly...I've been all over CH...go to Bernese Oberland! It is one of the most beautiful places on earth. Luzern way too touristy. Bern would be a waste.

I don't think anybody has ever gone to Bernese Oberland and not loved it!

Go and you will not be disappointed!

I believe they have a money back guarantee! :)

I'm definitely leaning towards a few days in Luzern and a few days in the Berner Oberland. I don't want to spend all of my time in the mountains because I'll be traveling alone, and don't want to start to feel too isolated. I'd like to spend at least a little time people watching, sitting at cafes, etc.

So my next question is: While visiting the Berner Oberland (I'm thinking three days), would you base yourself in Interlaken and take day trips to the different mountain towns? I was told this could be a smart way to do it, but everyone on here seems so anti-Interlaken.

Also, if I'm going to visit a few of the other towns, which ones? Right now I'm leaning towards Lauterbrunnen and Murren. Would that give me a good taste? Also, budget lodging options in this region are always welcome :)

Thanks again everyone for your help. This is really shaping my vacation!

Molly -

On our first visit to Switzerland, we based ourselves in Bern and made day trips, not realizing how gorgeous the BO was. On our next visit we based ourselves in Interlaken, not realizing that the best of the BO was ABOVE Interlaken. On our third trip we finally got it right, and based ourselves in Wengen. On every visit since, we've headed directly for the villages above Interlaken, and we've stayed in all of them except Gimmelwald, which is more of a hamlet than a village anyway.

I'm not a fan of Interlaken. It's not a quaint Swiss village, it's a busy small town. The only thing I like about it is the big Coop grocery store!

I suggested Lauterbrunnen earlier and the advantage of staying there (in addition to several budget friendly hostels) is that you'll save transportation costs. You can easily get to Wengen and Murren from there and you can get to Grindelwald by backtracking to Zweilutschinen. If you're based in Interlaken and you plan to go UP, all of your trips except to Grindelwald will go through Lauterbrunnen anyway.

I love Murren and Wengen, but if it were me, and I had the concerns about feeling isolated that you do, I'd stay in Lauterbrunnen or Grindelwald. Lauterbrunnen would have a distinct edge because its a transportation hub and has some good hostels.

Good luck.

<i>"I'm definitely leaning towards a few days in Luzern and a few days in the Berner Oberland."</i>

Now you're on the right track! ((y))

<i>"...everyone on here seems so anti-Interlaken."</i>

Ya think?

Our first trip to the region was similar to that of Melnq8, as well as many others here. We stayed in Interlaken, as that is what you read about in all the tourist brochures. It seemed the logical place to stay to get the "mountain" experience we all crave in Switzerland.

Day after day, making the trek by train UP the hill to Grindelwald or Lauterbrunnen or wherever, we realized that we wanted to stay there, not DOWN in Interlaken.

So for the past 20+ years each summer, that's what we've done.

The villages of Murren, Lauterbrunnen, Wengen, and yes, even Grindelwald (our favorite) have plenty of areas for people watching, outdoor cafes with drop-dead glacier views. I can't remember if you said which month you're traveling (except that it's last-minute), so perhaps it's in September? The crowds will be down, but that's not a bad thing. ;)

The views from Murren are superb. Perched high on the cliff above Lauterbrunnen, you will enjoy outdoor cafes overlooking the glaciers above and valley below. It is a small village, takes only 5-10 minutes to walk from end to end, and can be a haven for a couple days. It can also be a very sleepy town, depending when you're going. We've been there in late August, and I think we were the only guests in our hotel. There are a number of beautiful walks you can enjoy as well. If you have a clear day and feel like a splurge on your budget, take the trip up to the Schilthorn for the ride of your life and views that will take your breath away.

Staying in Grindelwald is also a good option. In high summer, the place is packed with people (daytripping from Interlaken!) and lots of buses. But in the off season, it is a wonderful town. Lots of shops and restaurants here, and plenty of hiking/walking trails without having to get the expensive train pass for the higher mountains. The Post Bus is a relatively inexpensive option for transportation if you're hankering to go higher and explore. From one side of the valley to the other, the big yellow bus can be quite an adventure. Take it one way, then walk back. There are so many options here, and so much to see just in this area.

Of course, Lauterbrunnen and Wengen are also superb choices. Murren and Grindelwald are just my favorites. You truly cannot go wrong with any of these towns.

I suppose you'll be staying in Luzern afterwards, as it then gets you to the airport easier. Best to do it that way.

Put aside two full days to find automated banking machines, withdraw money, spend it within ten minutes, find the next machine, spend it, repeat, repeat etc. We just returned from Zermatt. Expensive is an understatement.

Thanks again so much for the feedback! I think I want to base myself in Lauterbrunnen for convenience sake (and it sounds drop dead gorgeous!)

melnq8: have you stayed in that Valley Hostel, or have you seen it? Is it located in a good area? Looks great to me!

Hi Molly -

I've not stayed in the Valley Hostel, but I've done my laundry and checked my e-mail in their combo wash and surf establishment (very handy by the way). They get mixed reviews on TA.

Location wise, it's very convenient, right on the main drag near the bakery and grocery store, a short walk from the train station.

We stayed in an apartment the week we were there, which incidentally is located very near Camping Jungfrau, another hostel-like option on the river, about a 10 minute walk from the station. This place I'm not so sure about - it's a mish mash of accommodation, tiny free standing new huts amongst older larger huts, converted campers, campsites, and dorm type accommodation. It was hopping when we were there in late April, which is low season. Camping Jungfrau has a nice set up though, ATM, laundry facilities, a well stocked shop that's open later than the Coop in town, and a decent moderately priced restaurant and bar that we ate at three times in a week as it was so convenient to our apartment. It definitely caters to the younger, tour bus crowd.

Then there's a third option, about a three minute walk from Camping Jungfrau, on the road to Stechelberg (both very convenient to the bus by the way). This place is called Schutzenbach Backpackers and Camping. I don't know a thing about this place, other than where it is, as we passed it a few times in the course of our stay.

Based on the little I know about the three hostel options, I'd personally go for the Valley Hostel.

If envisioning traveling from Zurich to Lucerne, the Interlaken area and the to Geneva by public transports then by all means consider IMO the Swiss Railpass, which covers all nearly all trains, lake boats, buses, trams - anything that moves in Switzerland just about. It also gives free entry to over 400 Swiss museums - like the fantastic IMO Swiss Transport Museum in Lucerne. Great sources on train, boat, etc travel in Switzerland i always give these superb sites packed with tons of info: www.swisstravelsystem.com; www.ricksteves.com; www.seat61.com and http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/id3.html#intro - Swiss passes are sold at most any Swiss train station but for some reason are significantly more expensive there than here for the exact same pass. Swiss Pass prices in CHF (Swiss francs) are at www.swiss-pass.ch or at www.sbb.ch (Swiss Federal Railways official site). But if doing what i see you contemplating then strongly look at the Swiss Pass IMO - covers travel in full to places in the Jungfrau Region like Wengen, Lauterbrunnen, Murren, Gimmelwald, Grindelwald as well as all your longer distance train trips.

If people watching is your bag (it's mine too) then Interlaken, Grindelwald and Lauterbrunnen provide opportunities par excellent for this - these are tourist towns (well Interlaken is a proper urban area) - i love just to hang around the Interlaken-Ost (East) train station and watch the multi-national brigade of tourists ejaculating out of incoming trains - trains going to and from the Grindelwald/Lauterbrunnen areas - you have tons of Japanese - tons - they even have billboards i've seen in Grindelwald all in Japanese - and now Chinese fat cats and hikers from all over Europe, etc. To me this is exciting - something different and i enjoy ogling it all.

Hi everyone!
Well, the trip is booked! Thank you all so much for your suggestions. They really shaped my itinerary.

I'll be in Switzerland for four days. My first day/night I'll be in Zurich. Saturday morning I'll leave bright and early for Lauterbrunnen, where I decided to base myself for two days and nites. Then Monday morning through Tuesday afternoon I'll be in Lucerne.

While in Lauterbrunnen, I plan to stroll through Interlaken (as this is where I'll have to make a train connection from Zurich), spend a day in Murren and Jungfraujoch if there's time. Think I can see all three while still exploring Lauterbrunnen? Are these the areas you'd recommend to explore in the Jungfrau region?

While in Lucerne I'd really like to do that "golden ticket" excursion--a bus from Lucerne, a cable car to the top of Mt. Pilatus, a cogwheel train down, and a boat ride back to Lucerne. Has anyone done this? Is it the best way to explore/worth the money? Is it insanely expensive?

My final question has to do with the trains. I'm trying to decide if it's worth buying a four day rail pass (will be doing Zurich to Interlaken, Interlaken to Lucerne, Lucerne to Zurich). A la cart those trips are about $120, but will the pass also cover my travels in between the mountain towns, and maybe even my golden ticket in Lucerne? The four day Swiss Pass is $226. I haven't been able to find out much my ticket from Interlaken to Lauterbrunnen (round trip) and the round trip from Lauterbrunnen to Murren (and possibly Jungfraujoch). HELP!

As always, thanks so much!

Hi MollyM,

Since you're quoting the train trips in US$, I'm betting you got the point-point prices from Raileurope. But don't do that! Raileurope always over-charges for point-point tickets, sometime by a significant amount.

Instead, get the actual prices from the Swiss rail site at

www.rail.ch

Then add them up and see what you find.

You may also want to consider the Half Fare Card, which costs 99 chf and gives you half off every train, cable car, and ferry in the country for one month. It's the one I always use when I'm in the country.

You can get more information on the HFC and other passes at

www.swisstravelsystem.com

Have fun!

s

Murren is not on the track to the Jungfraujoch. That would be Wengen.

Murren is perched on the cliff's edge directly above the Lauterbrunnen Valley. It is from this area that you can take the tram up to the Schilthorn.

There are several ways to get to the Jungfraujoch from Lauterbrunnen. If you don't want to do any hiking (I think you said that before, no?), probably the easiest route is to take the train to Wengen, then the connecting train up to the Jungfraujoch.

But first figure out if it's actually Wengen or Murren that you're interested in.

About the "golden ticket" to Mt. Pilatus. Yes, I've done it, and it's really a fun day. Don't miss the roddelbahn (alpine slide) on your trip back via the aerial cabelway to Kriens. It's one of the longest I've seen, and the views of the lake are wonderful as you're heading down the hill. ((y)) There's also a nice little chalet restaurant for lunch.

Happy travels!

All right, so probably Interlaken, Lauterbrunnen, and Murren will be plenty to handle in 2 days worth of time?

The main question now is if my little rail trips to Lauterbrunnen, Murren, and the Golden Roundtrip in Lucerne will be included in the Swiss Pass. If not, I dont think buying the swiss pass will be worth it, and perhaps I should look into the Half Fare card (again, if these things are included with it)

The Swiss Pass is generally valid only for the regular trains lines, not the mountain trains. It also is good for some of the lakes; i.e., from Lucerne to the boat dock only near Mt. Pilatus, not the trek uphill and down. Not sure about getting from Lauterbrunnen to Murren. There may be a small (25% maybe??) discount on selected mountain lines.

Have you checked the Swiss rail website? It has loads of helpful information.

Yes. I think it'll make more sense to buy my tickets a la carte. It's turning out to be the exact same price for that and the rail pass, and I'm still not 100% certain what the rail pass includes.

Does anyone know if tickets are assigned seats, or do you have to reserve a seat for more $$?

We were last in Switzerland in May and were at many of the places you mention. We'll be going back in October for a couple of weeks in the mountains and a week in Zurich. Since we are interested in art, Zurich is a priority with us, although my preparatory study indicates there is a lot more there than the Museums, but it is expensive, as are all the Swiss cities we have visited.

We enjoyed Luzern a lot. We have half-fare cards and they were a bit help as we took a lot of excursions and boats. I don't know why, but the half fare card seems to give a better deal on some of the excursions than the passes. Finding how to get the best card, or pass, or buy tickets, is an exhausting pursuit, and I no longer take the time to do it.

They have a lot of old steamers, all in extremely good condition. We took the trip to Pilatus and enjoyed it far more than the trip to Titlis. The only problem was you descend in a cable car, then have to catch a city bus (free with the excursion ticket) and it was a bit tricky finding where the bus stop was, but we eventually succeeded. We also took the boat to Rutli, a site important to the Swiss for historical reasons. The boat ride itself was worth the time and money. These boats stop in every small town up and down the lake, and your ticket gives you on and off privileges, so you can choose to eat in one of the towns, or on the boat, which has a decent restaurant (except for one we took from Lausanne to Chillon, which had no edible food, next time I'll pack a lunch).

When we went to Lauterbrunnen the weather was hazy and cloudy, so we didn't pay to go up to Murren or one of the mountaintops just to see the inside of a cloud. They have closed circuit TV from the top in the station where you buy tickets; check it before paying for this relatively expensive excursion. But understand that weather at the top can change frequently and rapidly, so there are no guarantees. Just walking up the Lauterbrunnen valley is a pleasant experience with many waterfalls from the cliffs on both sides.

Molly -

Your Swiss Pass will cover you all the way to Lauterbrunnen, Wengen and Murren. The Swiss Pass covers the cable car to Grutschalp (from Lauterbrunnen) and the connecting train to Murren. If you choose to go to Murren from the Stechelberg side (or go up one way and down the other, which I highly reccmmend) your Swiss Pass will cover the bus to Stechelberg, the cable car to Gimmelwald and the cable car to Murren.

The only thing your Swiss Pass won't cover in full in the BO that you've mentioned is the train to the Jungfrau. It will afford you a 25% discount on the fare from Wengen to the top of the Jungfrau, which is a private rail line.

If the Swiss Pass for four days is $226, it sounds like much better deal than buying the Half Fare Card, which is 99 CHF, + half of each fare on each journey you plan to take.

The Golden Pass route is also covered under your Swiss Pass. If you reserve a seat (which may be mandatory, I can't remember) you will have to pay the seat reservation fee.

And no, tickets aren't assigned seats, unless you've reserved. Most mountain trains don't have a reservation system. No reason to reserve except perhaps on the Golden Pass route.

What's covered in the Swiss Pass is outlined here:

http://www.myswissalps.com/swisspass.asp?lang=EN

The Swiss Pass is generally valid only for the regular trains lines, not the mountain trains. It also is good for some of the lakes; i.e., from Lucerne to the boat dock only near Mt. Pilatus, not the trek uphill and down. Not sure about getting from Lauterbrunnen to Murren. There may be a small (25% maybe??) discount on selected mountain lines.>

The Swiss Pass is valid 100% for any train or cable way that links two towns - thus Lauterbrunnen-Murren-Gimmelwald-Lauterbrunnen is fully covered.

If the train only goes to a mountain top - like Jungfraujoch then it is not covered 100% but a discount - always 50% on anything that moves otherwise except for the Jungfraujoch trains from Kleine Scheidegg to the summit (bus covers this train in fully to Wengen and 50% Wengen to Kleine Schiedegg) - since Wengen is 100% covered folks staying there may look more at the pass as they can easily go down to Lauterbrunnen for more shopping and eatery, etc. opportunities or easily down to Interlaken for city life (and the casino perhaps) or just to hop on a lake boat in the later afternoon, etc.

The Swiss Pass is good 100% on every lake that i know of in Switzerland - not some - first-class passes or tickets can laze on the open-air upper deck - second class down below (but still great seats in the open-air back deck)

Swiss Pass good in full on nearly every bus line in cities and postal buses out

And with the Swiss Flexipass in between the first and last days of 100% flexible days you then get 50% off everything - just like the Half-Fare Card (escept Kl Scheidegg to Jungfraujoch 25%)

Some tourist scenic trains like Glacier Express charge pass holders a supplement but none is required on the Golden Pass i believe.

Since you're quoting the train trips in US$, I'm betting you got the point-point prices from Raileurope. But don't do that! Raileurope always over-charges for point-point tickets, sometime by a significant amount.

Instead, get the actual prices from the Swiss rail site at

www.rail.ch>

I wish folks would actually check being saying things like that - actually RE's ticket prices are a tad cheaper than those for tickets in Swiss francs in Switzerland

For example Basel to Zurich Hbf on RE - $27 2nd class/$45 first class

sbb.ch has 31 CHF and 50 CHF - actually with today's conversion rate plus the 3% foreign transaction fees MORE than RE

Why do folks still say "Raileurope always over-charges for point-point tickets, sometime by a significant amount" without even checking.