Greece: Just home and a message about smoking
 

Hi everyone

Arrived home yesterday from our third trip to Greece. A report will follow.

We spent some time on Mykonos again (thank you thanos) and then 6 days in Athens.

All in all the holiday, as those before, was fantastic until our last day (in Athens).

I'm on insulin so usually find a taverna or coffee shop close to the hotel (we always usually book room only) where I can get food quickly without waiting, after having taken my insulin.

We were lucky enough to find a great place right next to the hotel and for the first four mornings the food was served quickly and always with a smile. I had explained to the young waiter why I needed to eat quickly and he made sure I did each and every morning.

In Greek restaurants smoking is allowed. I don't smoke but my husband does although outside and never anywhere where food is served.

There were about twenty tables in the the taverna and I'd noticed that, on our last morning, at three of them were some smokers.

Not long after we started breakfast another American couple we had spoken to at our hotel came in. As they walked to our table Gillian started to wave her arms around as if trying to wave the smoke away and made a face towards the tables where the smokers were. Next thing her husband announced loudly that it was about time Greece banned smoking in restaurants.

Oh my goodness, all hell broke loose. This is my third time in that beautiful country but I have never seen a reaction like that.

From one table where there was one smoker he was told, loudly, that in Greece they smoke at breakfast time in restaurants and if he didnt like it then leave, now!. That was bad enough but from a smoker on one of the other tables came the response 'we should ban cigarette smoking? Where are you from?'. Our friend replied NYC and the response was immediate and in very good English. 'Personally I'd ban Americans from visiting Greece. If you don't like us smoking then don't come back, you won't be missed.'

Nobody came near the table to take their order and as we were about to finish we all left together and then seperated as they walked off to find somewhere to eat. I could feel the bad atmosphere as we left.

Ok, perhaps faults on both sides but this was something I hadn't encountered before and it made me very uneasy.

Neither condeming or condoning with this message but folks please be careful what you say in public places in Greece. You may just get the response that we witnessed and it wasn't nice at all.

Now to start writing the trip report.

milley

We were told wehn we arrived in Greece that a Greek breakfast consisted of a cigarette and coffee.

I prefer a large chunk of Baklava and some strong coffee myself!!

Not so much a message about smoking as a message about travel etiquette.

Hi M,

>...please be careful what you say in public places ....<

Good advice wherever you are.

Not to mention that these people were guests in someone else's home. I find it hard to sympathize with their chutzpah, as the French would say.

((I))

Oh milley, what an uproar. I guess this American couple will be telling everyone that will listen how rude and terrible the Greeks are?

Am glad you had a fantastic trip..and aren't you glad this couple weren't your travelling companions, lol. Take care.

Miley5,

I really empathize! We visited some of my husband's friends in Greece this July, and were shocked at how much they smoked. It made the rest of Europe look like health nuts. But we never would have said anything, since it's a fact of life in Greece. You know it's bad when you're happy to get back on the plane because it's smoke-free!

I felt healthier in Greece than anywhere I have ever traveled with their wonderful diet of seafood and fresh salads. The smoking is a part of their culture too.Travelers need to accept it or at least not say or do anything rude.

Hi, milley
Just recently came back from Greece myself. Loved the country. People were so wonderfully nice.

I think the lesson to be learned from your account is respect the culture of others. Unfortunately many Americans assume what goes on/is acceptable in the US is what should also be the case elsewhere. And proceed to loudly exclaim annoyance with others for their customs in THEIR country.
Had this happen once with a travel companion. Had to explain to her that the rules in our country are not the same as in others. So she shouldn't get upset when things are different.

That couple explains why there is the "ugly American" stereotype.

It's always a good rule, wherever you go: Don't pick a fight at the breakfast table.

A classic. Some people just shouldn't travel.

I'm sorry that you had to get mixed up with these rude and obnoxious travelers. What they did is outrageous.

Frankly I don't think it works to let people know not to do that. Anyone who would do it in the first place isn't about to be taught anything about manners. They are beyond help. And yes, they will return to the US with the firm "knowledge" that the Greeks are a bunch of rude and obnoxious people. Alas, what they really need is a mirror.

Thanks guys. I so love Greece. It was my first ever trip abroad and that was only a few years ago. We chose Greece only because my husband was ex-navy and spent a few years stationed off Piraeus. I was selfish and just wanted to be Shirley Valentine.

I have found nothing but courtesy and friendliness from all Greek people we have met and thanos (and his family) on Mykonos who helps us all here is quite special. This was the 2nd time we met him (he helped us last time as my husband had difficulty walking and thanos arranged a wheel chair in advance of our visit). That helpfulness and friendliness, for me, kind of sums up Greek people as whole.

Sadly though that episode frightened me. Of course, it won't stop me going back but it so spoiled such a happy vacation and on our last day too.

milley

Milley, I understand, I truly do, how that couple from the hotel caused a problem in the cafe.

But it had nothing to do with you or your husband as you know. You said that the waiter at the cafe was so good about getting your breakfast right away as he understood about your just taking your insulin shot. And your husband has been helped when needing a wheelchair.

Please, it might take time, but do try to forget about the awful scene those people that you are not related to and were not travelling with caused. You will never see them again. Just know it was one of those "oh no!" moments, that had nothing to do with you and your husband. Best regards with wishes that you two have many more wonderful trips.

My husband and I smoke the occasional cigarette when we are on holiday although not at home. We were in a large restaurant for breakfast in Fussen, Germany with only one other table in use by a North American couple who were finished eating and getting ready to pay their bill. My husband lit a cigarette and if looks could kill, he would have melted on the spot. The couple, especially the woman, stared openly at us and started raving about smoking and in a loud voice said "they would never do that at home." Exactly, but we weren't at home. I was embarrassed and a little flustered but we did not respond until they got up to leave staring at us as they went out the door and I then yelled in absolute irritation "oh buzz off" much to my husband's delight.

That was an OK response, Lily, but a much better one to "they wouldn't do that at home" would be "then why don't you go home?"

You're right Neopolitan!

Hello milley

I are pleased you and your husband arrived safely at home. My family enjoyed meetign you again.

I am very sorry about what happened in Athens, but please it must not spoil memories of your trip. It was perhaps rude of the hotel people to speak like that in a public restaurant. I know of a few island tavernas here on Mykonos where people who make comments like that especially to local persons would be put from place immediately.

Also, do you rememeber the story about the goddess Artemis and the island of Delos I tell you about when we took you back to Agios Ioannis. You know what she would have done so therefore you must smile and forget.

thanos

Miley,
It seems as though you are coming away with a negative impression of Greece and Greeks because of their response, and that's a shame.

They were sitting there innocently enjoying their breakfast when a complete stranger was very rude to them. Why shouldn't they defend themselves? I'd have said something along those lines too. It doesn't mean that Greeks unfriendly or hostile towards visitors. It means they stick up for themselves when they are rudely attacked, same as the rest of us.

Hi nona1

I don't read Millie's message like that.

She very obviously loves Greece and its people and that comes across strongly in all her messages on this board since her first visit some years ago. In a way, I get the feeling she is almost trying to apologise for her fellow Americans' appalling behaviour to any Greek folks who contribute here.

Ok thanos. I'll bite. Would artemis have simply slapped him or turned him to stone.....or what other horrible thing had you in mind?

joe

Ok .. I am an ex smoker. Thus my views on smoking in public have changed quite dramatically over the last 2 years. Having said this, even though I am anti smoking .. I am also a European.

Being a European I understand tolerance. Tolerance is, if there are people smoking you go to the other end of the room, so it does not bother you as much. If this is not possible, good manners, would dictate you quietly ask if they would mind refraining from blowing smoke in your direction. A pleasant request as such, usually will gain the respect of the smokers and they will endeavour to blow smoke the other way, as I did when I was a smoker.

The alternative, which we will call "The American Abroad" alternative is to shout at the top of your voice and upset not only the smokers but more or less everyone else in the room. The reaction that this would have received from me as a smoker, would be one of dis respect as I had just been dis respected. I would probably have made more of an effort to blow smoke in the direction of that the person whom had just been very obnoxious and offensive, that I would have made an effort to blow it away from them.

You will not change the laws by being big mouthed.

The moral to this story is, learn manners and respect other cultures before you go away from home. You will gain respect.

obviously it was rude and inappropriate to comment on the smoking and childishly make waving motions toward the smoke.

however, if i ran to this board every time i saw someone behaving contrary to the customs in my country, i would go mad. italians come here and jump the queue as they would do at home, germans come here and don't tip, etc, etc.

likewise, thousands of the planet's worst behaving people travel from britain to greece every year, ruining many decent greek villages.

i travelled to china with a british colleague who constantly (and loudly) made jokes about the chopsticks...saying that the chinese were too stubborn to switch to forks when they were invented. this was done several times in front of our chinese hosts.

such behaviour comes from ignorance of how to act when travelling and/or traveller fatigue (which we all get to some degree - when we are tired of things working differently). some people have a low tolerance for such fatigue and let it get the best of them.

when the italian jumps the queue here in london, i might try to correct the situation but in the end, i wouldn't make a huge fuss about it. you just shake it off and realise you are dealing with a foreigner who is ignorant of how things work.

I took it as a criticism of the Greeks' response
"Oh my goodness, all hell broke loose. This is my third time in that beautiful country but I have never seen a reaction like that."

"That was bad enough but from a smoker on one of the other tables came the response"...

"Ok, perhaps faults on both sides but this was something I hadn't encountered before and it made me very uneasy."

He/she was talking about the Greeks response in that final quote - 'perhaps faults on both sides but...' (only perhaps there was fault on the USA side?)
"this was something I hadn't encountered before and it made me very uneasy." she is clearly not talking about the American behaviour here so it comes across as though she/he thinks the Greeks behaved worse than the Americans.

Thank you for posting this. I get upset about smoking in restaurants and try to be quiet about it but sometimes I might stare in disgust.

No more. This post has taught me to just shut and not use passive aggressive staring or quiet comments to my partner as a tactic. I need to just hold it in and relax, and try not to breathe :o).

steve r

walkinaround

I see far more inappropriate things being brought to this board than Milley's message. I think it is a helpful reminder to show respect and manners when in country that has different customs. Even, God forbid, customs you may not agree with.

Nona1 I certainly didn't take it as a criticism of anything or anyone Greek. I think she was frightened to be pulled into a situation that she did not create nor ever would have. Read her previous posts. There are many, and all about Greece and her love for the country and its people. In fact, her first ever trip report, in my mind, is a classic for the first time traveller to Greece.

Joe, Artemis was a dab hand with the three pronged trident. I'll say no more.

bill

"He/she was talking about the Greeks response in that final quote - 'perhaps faults on both sides but...' (only perhaps there was fault on the USA side?) "this was something I hadn't encountered before and it made me very uneasy." she is clearly not talking about the American behaviour here so it comes across as though she/he thinks the Greeks behaved worse than the Americans."

I get the feeling nona1 that each time Milley has been to Greece she has seen only the lovely kind friendly people there and not any fighting or arguing or disagreeing that they are also capable of. I have.

Not only have I seen those characteristics in Greece but in most other countries I've visited so don't take my comments as an attack on Greeks.

I love them dearly - I'm married to one.

Also, I think bill got it right when he says he felt she was frightened at being caught up in a situation that she herself would never have created.

Write your trip report Milley - I'm looking forward to it very much.

Well, it doesn't matter too much either way, as long as it doesn't put her off going.

but I still think this has coloured her views of Greeks - why say 'but this experience won't stop me going to Greece' and not 'but this experience won't stop me making friends with Americans' instead. Sorry, but she clearly was more scared by the Greece reactions than she was bothered by the Americans rudeness.
I don't know, everyone's only human, whatever country they are from. Annoy someone enough and they'll have a go at you. I don't think it warrants making a public warning about having to be careful about what you say in public places in Greece. Not from the point of view that it is rude to say these things, but from the point of view of 'oh my God the Greeks will defend themselves'.

quote "please be careful what you say in public places in Greece. You may just get the response that we witnessed and it wasn't nice at all."
Surely you shouldn't be bloody rude to anyone in any country or you can expect a 'not nice at all' response.

Stever,
You choose to go into a restaurant that allows smoking. Glad to hear that you intend to give up the passive aggressive dirty looks and stares at people who smoke there.

By the way I am a non-smoker myself, so I much prefer a non-smoky atmosphere. But if I'm in a place where smoking is allowed, that's my choice, so how can I complain about it? Giving people who are just minding their own business filthy looks is filthy behaviour in my book.

The DH and I are adamantly non-smoking, we supported local regulations to ban smoking, etc. etc.

Neither of us would presume to dictate to or correct the customs of residents of a country we were visiting, particularly when they have not asked for our opinion.

If we didn't like a smoky restaurant, we'd find another, or eat outside. The loud Yanks were out of line.

Nona1, I don't think anything will put her off going back. Did she indicate this somewhere and I have missed it?

'She wasn't rude but witnessed it and was drawn into it.
Sorry, but she clearly was more scared by the Greece reactions than she was bothered by the Americans rudeness.'

My goodness you have really drilled this right down haven't you. Have you thought that she might be USED to American rudeness but not to the volatile reaction from the Greeks in the restaurant? You may not have seen it before but I have and it can be kind of scary when not used to it.

Once in Athens we had to leave a taverna when bottles started to be thrown around after an argument between Greeks over a card game they were playing.

I still think that's what scared Milly -she hadn't seen 'the other side' of Greek human nature and was drawn into it without being at fault. In fact, I think most folks would be uncomfortable.

Don't forget, Greeks can be as rude as folks from any other country and some maybe interpret what THEY said to the Americans as rudeness. I can think of some Greek relatives of mine that would be embarrassed at this reaction of their countrymen to foreign visitors in that restaurant.

joe

Oh please. What those Americans did were incredibly rude--I'm an American AND a smoker and had I been there I would have told them to go back home if they didn't like! How terribly rude.

I would probably have apologized to the smokers for the boorish behavior of my countrymen, and let it go at that.

Why should Milley 5 apologize for the "boorish behavior" of her countrymen? She is not responsible for how other Americans act. The Americans were rude; and I think the Greeks overreacted. How much more discussion does this topic need? Talk about beating a dead horse....

Since your post asked two questions, I guess you must be the dead horse expert here...

Oh my goodness. I've just checked in and I am so sorry that my post has caused so much disagreement.

It was written with the best intentions, I promise.

Nona1, nothing will stop me returning to Greece. I love the people there and I'm still hoping and looking for that Shirley Valentine moment (and if I could figure out how to add that little yellow smiley face I'd place it right here).

Best wishes to you all,

milley

Why on earth would someone apologize for people they had nothing to do with? Should a Frenchman walk around all day apologizing for the people who don't shower or use deodorant as if it's HIS fault? Should every German be apologizing for Hitler's actions? I don't get the concept of that kind of apology. There are rude people all over the world. The fact that a couple of them happen to be from the same country I am is nothing for ME to apologize about.

Sorry Neopolitan.

You've lost me a bit. I didn't apologise for anyone that morning. Have I missed something here?

milley

Hey, I'm trying to defuse a situation here, not rationalize the Holocaust.

"I hope you don't judge all Americans by the rudeness of these two."

milley, if you missed anything it must have been this post which caused my response:
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
Author: Passepartout
Date: 10/01/2006, 01:40 pm

I would probably have apologized to the smokers for the boorish behavior of my countrymen, and let it go at that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>

Frankly I think it's insulting to suggest to someone that they would judge an entire nationality based on the actions of two people. Sounds like a good way to get involved in a situation I'd want to stay clear of. Why would I even want to bring to the attention of those people yelling that I'm from the same country as the rude ones?

So let's make a deal, Passepartout. If you feel you want to apologize for your countrymen when they do something very foolish or rude -- go ahead. I'll choose not to do that. And each other person can make up his or her own mind about it too.

Fair enough. I'll even do it for you.