Germany - Munich/Bavaria area
 

Hi All,

My husband has a business trip to Poland in late Nov/ early Dec, so we are adding a week to the beginning of the trip and making a vacation of it. My husband has been to Germany numerous times but always for work so he's not done any sightseeing to speak of. I've not been to Germany so for me this is a first time visit.

We are flying in and out of Munich. Our plans for the personal vacation portion of the trip is to arrive Munich on Sat morning Nov 23 and depart Munich on Sun Dec 1. These plans are in the formation stage. My plan is to get some advise from the Fodor experts - You - and continue my planning from there.

Here's my question: I know the weather in Nov/Dec in Germany is not going to be optimal. Having said that, last Nov we went to Paris, when everyone discouraged us due to undesirable weather, and we very much enjoyed it - dispute the less than perfect temps :) What we liked best, were the lack of crowds. We are thinking the same will be true for Germany/Bavaria. So do you think a trip to Germany/Bavaria in late Nov is worthwhile?

Here's a VERY VERY preliminary start to our plans. I have LOTS to fill in but didn't want to waste the time putting more work into it if everyone said we were CRAZY to go in late Nov/early Dec.

Fly into Munich - spend 2 days in Munich including Dachua, city center, brew pub, etc...

Depart Munich and begin a Rad Trip (we can rent a car if it's recommended or take the train or a combo of both) to include these sights (these are all MAYBE's - looking for input from you all on what is a MUST SEE and what can be missed given we only have a week and we'd prefer a leisurely road trip to one where we are racing to get to the next sight).

Schloss Herrenchimesee (note, we visited Versailles in Paris and although it was beautiful we would have preferred doing something different w/ that 1/2 day)

Konigssee

Salzbergwek (salt mines)

Salzberg including possibly Reit im Winki

St. Gilgen to Strobl bike riding?

Lodge in Partenkirchen for 2 nights and see the surrounding area - even consider a 3rd night so we have time to go skiing?

Fussen

Neuschwanstein

That's as much as I've done so far. Our goal is to visit little Alpine Villages - lodge in cozy inns/lodges that have Alpine character, eat in local restaurants and drink in local pubs. We also want to see the beautiful landscapes of the mountains, lakes, woods, etc...BUT, as much as we prefer small villages and nature, I feel as though we shouldn't miss Salzberg - thoughts?

A little about us to help: We are active so doing things like boat rides, hikes thru the forests or mountains, climbing to castles, walking tours, biking, jogging thru a park, etc...all interest us. My husband's heritage is German so he wants to experience the German culture - food, beer (even German wine if there's anything good in the Southern part of the Country), and German folklore or whatever else is recommended. When we were in Ireland we experienced Irish pubs and Irish dance at an Irish castle - that was fun. When we were in Paris, we rented a guide and bikes and rode thru "off the beaten path" hamlets and villages in the French countryside for an entire day - that was one of the highlights of our trip for sure. In Italy, our favorite lodging was in Tuscany - we loved being in the little Tuscan villages and staying in the hidden gem Inns. So much character ...

We are looking for recommendations on where to spend our time on the road trip. We will begin and end in Munich at the Marriott but aside from that we are open to any suggestions. Also, if anyone has any recommendations on Lodging, Dining, Must See Sights, Must Do Activities, please advise.

Once I get the thumbs up that Nov/Dec is an okay time to go to Germany/Bavaria, I'll be spending more time on developing the itinerary, as well.

Thanks so much for your help,

Shelley

It will be likely too early to sky, but still chilly enough for some outdoor activities to be unconfortable. - The bike ride looks to me as a summer activity, and it won't be summer in November. Generally speaking, head to places where you can have some indoor activities if the weather gets bad - and you will not know if the weather gets bad till you are here.

Hi swanner,

I've lived in Garmisch-Partenkirchen for five years, so I hope I can give you some advice.

First of all, visiting a city in November or the countryside in November is vastly different. In a city, you can always pop into a café for a hot chocolate or a glass of wine to warm up (well, except for your day on a bike in the countryside!). But if you are walking or biking in the countryside, you will be exposed to the cold and wind and rain for most of the day.

Additionally, there is unlikely to be snow on the ground in early December -- normally we don't get a covering of snow until early January. There hasn't been skiing that early since I've lived here. So, the landscape isn't really ideal at that time -- the fall leaves have turned brown and black, the trees are bare, and there is lots of rain or drizzle and fog.

I love biking in this area, but I haven't been on my bike for about a month now -- because it's so cold (9 deg C in the mornings) and wet and the trails are muddy.

Finally, about your itinerary -- I would limit the number of times you change bases. Remember that every time you move, you lose about half a day of "outside" time because of packing up and checking out, then checking in and unpacking again. I think you should plan to see Salzburg from your base in München, forego St. Gilgen for this trip, and decide on *either* Füssen or Partenkirchen for your time in the countryside.

If you get decent weather while you are here, I'll be happy to share some of my favorite bike rides and walks with you --

Have fun as you plan!

s

Thanks aasps and swanda2000,

So far it sounds like you are discouraging us to go in late Nov/Dec. Boo. It's the only time we can go. We don't mind cold weather - we live in Phx, AZ so it's a nice change of pace for us. If we can't ski, that's no problem. And even bikeriding is no issue. We had the same kind of weather, though, in Paris for biking and we didn't mind as long as it's not raining or snowing.

Nonetheless, you've given us some food for thought. We'll need to rethink our plan. The other option we had considered is Prague and Vienna. But that's one more leg to the trip and we aren't sure we want to do that. Plus, we aren't sure we'll have enough to do in Prague/Vienna for a week. Neither of us are the musuem goer's (1 is usually enough for us) or big city type.

Hi Swandav2000 - Another thought:

A potential bonus to going in the late Nov/early Dec timeframe might be that Christmas decorations will be going up so even though that time of year isn't as pretty from a landscape perspective, the Holiday decorations may offset that? Thoughts?

I liked your idea of making Salzburg a daytrip from Munich. We'll likely do that.

Re: Füssen or Partenkirchen - can you give me some color from your perspective as to which one we might prefer based on the description of what we like? Also, do you recommend any Inns/Lodges in either area? We like small, intimate lodging - we have visions of cobblestone roads, fireplaces, cozy Hansel and Gretel kind of places - corny I know, but that's what comes to mind when I think of Bavaria.

The Christmas markets open on November 25th. Munich has about 20 of them, the big one is at Marienplatz (glockenspiel) and there is a close by medieval market and another that is all wooden cresh figures.

We love Salzburg and the altstadt is a fun experience. Have a meal at Sanktpeters Stiffskeller ( behind the Sound of Music graveyard where they hid from the Nazis.) (Actually they filmed that part in a studio reproduction). You can do a day trip to Salzburg on the train on the Bayern ticket for about 24€ for the two of you roundtrip. If you do rent a car the beautiful Bavarian village of Bertchtesgaden is close to Salzburg. They have a salt mine tour and Hitler's Eagles nest is there.

Herrenchiemsee is about half way between Munich and Salzburg near the town of Prien. Within about 10 miles of Prien is Riet in Winkel. If the weather cooperates they have a lot of cross country skiing in this charming hamlet.

Aisleseat,

Thanks so much. We will definitely take your suggestions along with us. I know it's not the perfect time to be vacationing in the area but the Xmas markets sound wonderful - I'm certain we will have fun despite the weather :)

Re Herrenchiemsee.

I assume you are already aware that this is the largest of the four Ludwig "builds" and that it was patterned after Versailles. In fact, the Hall of Mirrors in the palace is even larger than the one in France.

You can do it by rail if you wish; you take a regional train to Prien which is on the rail route to Salzburg and from there you have to make your way over to nearby Stock where a ferry takes you back and forth to the island and palace.

The interior is the most elaborately decorated of all the builds to include Linderhof and it is much MUCH more elaborate on the inside than is Neuschwanstein.

If you had a car you can stay overnight nearby.

As to time of year...look, we already KNOW you are going. I've been in that area in late November/early December so you already know the kind of weather to expect and the clothing to bring.

Enjoy your trip.

We are going in Nov. I have been in all sorts of weather, who cares, enjoy Germany. You can go see many things still. We had five inches of snow in 2009 in Oct in Garmisch. You can visit the Gorge, go to the top of the Zupsitze, sure to see snow there, We are doing the BMW tour in Munich, the Christmas markets will be fun at night. Just dress warm and enjoy. I live in Fl and can't wait for cooler temps. I am in Cape Cod right now and it is warm. I enjoy the change. The mountains will look beautiful and the food and beer are so good. Enjoy and go.

Hi again,

Sorry for the delay in writing -- I was travelling to Paris (where I plan to take a bike ride with French Mystique -- is that who you went with??).

Sorry, but I've never been to Füssen. I can tall you that Garmisch is wonderfully central, if you want to see some castles and some mountains; you can get a lot of places easily from here. And of course, Garmisch is at the foot of the Zugspitze, Germany's tallest mountain.

You don't mention your price preference for hotels, but I would recommend the Hotel Zugspitze -- it's wonderfully central and has a perfect Bavarian atmosphere. It's a 4-star. If you want a 3-star, then I recommend the Hotel Bavaria, also central and atmospheric. However, both of them are in Garmisch rather than Partenkirchen. In Partenkirchen, I've heard good things about the Frauendorfer. Remember, though, in Partenkirchen, you are some distance from the train station, so that means an additional bus ride or a 15-minute walk to the train station for excursions.

I was going to suggest that you put the trip to Bavaria at the *end* of your Polish business trip; that way, you're sure to coincide with the Christmas markets.

Anyway, have fun!

s

Hi Dukey1, Thanks for the note back. We actually don't KNOW for sure that we are going to Germany - the other options are Prague/Vienna and Amsterdam/Brussels, though Germany is of more interest than Amsterdam to me personally.

Based on everyone's input, we are leaning towards not worrying about the weather, and going to Germany - all locations we are considering will have cooler temps so we might as well go with the one that's of most interest - Germany.

Thanks again for your note - the information is very helpful.

hi flpab,

That's so funny you mention the BMW tour. Just last night we were saying (in jest) that we could get a BMW while in Germany and drive it home :)
My last car was the 540 series BMW and we were just talking about getting another one. What's the BMW Tour?

Hi Swandav2000,

Yes French Mystique is the Tour Guide we used and we just loved the entire day. We let him pick the route - he was worried about rain (which we didn't get) - and it was just a great experience.

The Hotel Zugspitze looks lovely but we were looking for something smaller and more intimate. Maybe what we are looking for doesn't exist but I had visions of a little stone Inn tucked away in the forest - probably too stuck on Hansel and Gretel fairytales, lol. If i can't find anything like that then we'll likely stay at the HotelZugspitze because it looks and sounds very nice or Frauendorfer - that one looks abit more like what i had in mind - Cobblestone streets, etc...

I'm thinking we might rent a car for the Road Trip part of our visit, just to give us the flexibility to do what we want. We'll probably take the train from Munich to Salzberg, though.

As you suggested, I'd love to do our Germany visit after his Poland trip so we can be in Bavaria at the height of the Xmas festivities but unfortunately, that won't work out :)

Thanks so much for your information - it's been most helpful.

Enjoy Paris and the bike ride! Remember to dress in layers; it'll be cold when you start but you'll warm up as the day and the riding gets underway....

Hi,

We did a "Christmas Market" trip to Austria in late Nov. 2010. Salzburg and Innsbruck were amazing. While we've been to Bavaria and Austria many times, incl. these two, but this was our first winter trip and it was magical during this time of year. We based 4 nights in the Berchtesgaden area and 4 in the Innsbruck area. Visited the markets in Salzburg, St. Gilgen, Innsbruck, Hall in Tirol and Rattenberg. All were terrific. While it was cold at night, the holiday atmosphere, the lights, decorations, hot drinks, smells of food, fires to warm up by, etc. made up for it.

This winter we're doing it again, but adding Markets that we didn't see, such as Berchtesgaden, Hallein and Sterzing and Brixen, over the border in Italy from Innsbruck.

Paul

Pja1 - your trip sounds wonderful... I need to look at a map to better understand how Innsbruck fits into our plan....

Hi again,

For what you seem to be looking for, I'd suggest a loop drive... staying near Salzburg (we love staying in both Ramsau bei Berchtesgaden and Schonau am Konigsee), driving to Garmisch (or another favorite of ours, Hall in Tirol, outside of Innsbruck), then to Fuessen and back to Munich. Each place is about 2 hours drive from one to the next, so no rushing or long drives.

Here's places we loved at:

www.mayringerlehen.de

http://www.friedwiese.de/enska/isl.htm

www.badl.at

www.hotel-hechten.com

We have photo's at:

http://www.worldisround.com/home/pja1/index.html

Paul

I meant "loved staying at" .

Paul,

Thank you so much! I'm pouring through your wonderful pics right now! Thanks for sharing...

Garmisch Partenkirchen, with a population of some 25,000 is a fair bit larger than Füssen, which has around 14,500 inhabitants. The former is easier to get to from Munich, is more international (a NATO school, large clinic with international clientele etc), but still very definitely Bavarian and makes for easy visits to other places in the area. Don't expect open fires though - the traditional method of heating in Southern Bavaria is a large ceramic-tiled stove against an outside wall. Often with a bench around it, which makes for a cosy seat in winter time!

Grindeldoo, thank you for your response :)

Hi All, I'm fine tuning our itinerary - forgive me for being abit scattered (I've changed our plans abit) - pls offer feedback:

Day 1 and 2 Munich (Sat and Sun) incl Dachau

Day 3 Salzberg (suggestion as to where to stay - was thinking Birchietgaten or ???? Want quaint village (would it be too far to drive to Mittenwald After day in Salzburg?)

Day 4, 5 , 6 Mittenwald (or recommendation for bavarian type intimate lodge/inn somewhere in the vicinity) as base for sightseeing Garmish, Zugspitz etc.. (3 nights possibly?)

Rothenberg (2 days/1 nt)

Frankfurt - 1 night - fly home

Questions:

If we were to see 1 castle, which do you recommend?
Should we add Heidelberg in somewhere?
On the way to Rotherberg, are there any " must see" areas?

For a first trip to Germany, is this a good itinerary or is there something else you'd recommend?

Our interests are quaint villages, beautiful scenery, Bavarian/alpine experience, hiking, castles, German beer/wine/food, etc... Sort of the quintensencial Bavarian experience.

Hi again,

I admit that I'm very sorry to hear that you'll be driving in Bavaria, an area with great train and bus transportation. You can take a road trip anywhere else in the world, but there are few places where the rail network works SO well.

There are many advantages to using the trains -- no worries about getting lost or turned around in small, medieval streets, no worries about the loooong traffic jams on the autobahns, no worried about the price of gas (around $8/gallon, I believe), no worries about finding and paying for parking. The train whisks you from city to town to village, without hassle and without fuss.

In addition, both of you get to enjoy the scenery -- or chat, read, listen to music, munch a picnic, or start up a conversation with a local on the train. You won't be isolated in a private bubble and get to get in some world-class people-watching -- see how teens treat the elderly, see how businessmen behave, see how families interact, etc.

Finally, using the trains is more green (yaaaay). Scientists believe there will be no more glaciers in Bavaria in 30 years due to global climate change, and indeed last summer the Zugspitze had no snow for the first time. This is a fun and easy way to reduce your carbon footprint.

s

Hi Swandaav - we aren't set on renting a car - if we can do our chosen itinerary via train that would be our preference.

ahhhh. That makes my little heart so happy! I gave away my car when I moved to Garmisch, and I love the car-free life!

Here are some other hotels you may want to consider:

Partenkirchen:
http://www.hotel-schatten.de/

In the forest (you have to take a cable car to get there). I stayed here for a few days in the 1980s -- obviously not a good spot for daily excursions.
http://www.forsthaus-graseck.de/page/en/startseite/

On a hill above town:
http://www.riessersee.com/

One thing to remember is that houses in Garmisch are built primarily of bright white stucco or occasionally of dark brown wood. It's not usual to have buildings made of stone. Oh, and if the hotel is tucked into a forest, it won't be convenient for excursions.

I think Mittenwald is a great choice, but sorry I don't know any hotels there. I stayed there for five weeks once, but it was in a vacation apartment.

Hope you find something just right!

s

Hi -

We are still planning but I;m looking for feedback/opinions/comoparisons on these 3 hotels for 3 nights lodging to explore the vicinity:

http://www.riessersee.com/
http://www.waxenstein.de/
http://www.hotel-zugspitze.de/en/

Thx

Hi again,

The most convenient is the Zugspitze. It is just about one block from the pedestrian zone in Garmisch and maybe 5-minute's walk to the train station. It gets rave reviews.

the Riessersee is, as I said above, on a hill overlooking the town. It is about a 15-minute walk (across the hill) to the Kreuzeck cable car lift and a Zugspitze train stop. It is about a 20-minute walk to town. Unfortunately, the town bus doesn't stop anywhere near it; by the time you reach a bus stop, your destination would be just a block or two away.

Grainau, I think, is equally inconvenient. It's good for walks and hikes in the area and to get up to the Zugspitze. However, the bus into Garmisch (the Eibsee bus) only runs once an hour, and it takes about 20 minutes.

Not sure what you mean by "explore the vicinity." If you mean the mountains and lakes, then any of these hotels would be great. However, if you mean visiting castles and other towns, then only the Zugspitze is good.

Have fun as you plan!

s

We loved Germany last year in December, if your interested you could take a look at our t/r. We did a few of things that you've mentioned. Hope it helps.
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...rs-5-weeks.cfm

Hi Swandee, By "explore the vicinity" I mean using a lodge as a base for seeing/doing everything in the vicinity whether that be mountains and lakes or castles and other towns. I'm just looking for a home base for a few nights so we don't need to pack and unpack every night.

Aussiedreamer, I just read through your TR (the Munich and Austria part). Thanks so much for sharing. Your trip sounds fantastic. I loved the resort and the skiing in Austria - I'd like to add that to my list of trips I'd like to take someday.

Swanner

http://www.bmw-welt.com/en/visitor_i...ours/welt.html

It is in Munich, we booked for Nov last week and got an English speaking tour on the day we wanted. They book fast so you have to book in advance.

Thanks flpab

Swanner: "Is this a good itinerary or is there something else you'd recommend?... We are active so doing things like boat rides, hikes thru the forests or mountains, climbing to castles, walking tours, biking, jogging thru a park, etc...all interest us.""

Swanner, your doubts are valid. You've been articulate and specific about what you're looking for on this trip (which is a bit unusual on these boards) so kudos for that. But if a good first trip means finding what you're looking for, you should rethink both your itinerary and what you are looking for. Swandav has cautioned you about the serious wetness you are likely to experience in the German Alps (maybe the WORST place in Germany in Nov/Dec for the hiking/biking/climbing-to-castles experience.) Rain and fog don't make for good scenery either. Other places in Germany and in Bavaria might be damp and cold to some extent, but probably not as intensely or as frequently as the Alps.

"Our interests are quaint villages, beautiful scenery, Bavarian/alpine experience, hiking, castles, German beer/wine/food, etc... Sort of the quintensencial Bavarian experience....

Staying in a city, as Swandav suggests, makes sense; do outings into the countryside to villages, small towns and castles as weather permits. But consider an area with less precip. The Alps aren't the only place you can hike, and even though "Alpine" often goes with "villages" in our heads, scenic villages are actually scattered all around the country. I'd suggest Franconia. Where's that? It's in Bavaria, actually (northern Bavaria) and by targeting Rothenburg, you are already planning to go there anyway!

Rothenburg is only one such place. The nearby River Main (just north of Rothenburg) is famous for its wines and is stuffed and surrounded by quaint towns and villages like Ochsenfurt and Marktbreit. Check out this daytrip video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLUgpoQIFHI

Iphofen is another nearby wine town that takes you back in time:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...seeTorSued.jpg

Speaking of time travel - this outdoor museum in Bad Windsheim is fantastic:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attractio...conia_Bav.html

You mentioned beer. Bamberg - built on 7 hills so that hiking is part of the visit - is a fantastic old Franconian city that's not to be missed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of4CI_169KQ

Würzburg and Nuremberg are both interesting and handsome cities (extra-nice old town in N'berg, home of famous Christmas market) with excellent train connections where you might settle in for several days or a week as you visit the area.

"If we were to see 1 castle, which do you recommend?"

in Nuremberg: Kaiserburg castle
in Würzburg: Marienburg fortress

Palaces (not unlike King Ludwig's palaces in the south): Würzburg, Weikersheim, several others in the area as well

"Should we add Heidelberg in somewhere?"

Not necessarily, but there is good scenery and some castles and palaces along the Burgenstrasse or CASTLE ROAD as well between Rothenburg and Heidelberg:

http://www.burgenstrasse.de/showpage...iteID=2&lang=2
On the way to Rotherberg, are there any " must see" areas?

For getting around Franconia by train, there's the Tagesticket Plus daypass for two: 16.80€/day

http://www.vgn.de/en/dayticket?Edition=en

For getting around all of Bavaria, there's the Bayern Ticket daypass:

http://www.munich-touristinfo.de/Bavaria-Ticket.htm

Hope this doesn't throw you for a loop, but you asked :)

Russ, Wow - thank you so much for the very informative response. It's going to take me a few days to get through all of this but I really appreciate the input and the thought/time you put into your response.

Thanks again - once I have an opportunity to digest all this information, I'll respond back.

[i}We like small, intimate lodging - we have visions of cobblestone roads, fireplaces, cozy Hansel and Gretel kind of places - corny I know, but that's what comes to mind when I think of Bavaria.[/i]

Check out http://www.bensbauernhof.com/ for lodging that you describe above. Ben used to post on Fodor's. Not sure if he's still around. Great website for non-touristy lodging in Bavaria.

Oops.

We like small, intimate lodging - we have visions of cobblestone roads, fireplaces, cozy Hansel and Gretel kind of places - corny I know, but that's what comes to mind when I think of Bavaria.

Hmm...thinking those brackets may be outdated for italics.

Russ, your videos are fantastic! So much good information - I'm really going to have to rethink our itinerary. Thanks so much for your input...

Betsy, thank you. I will definitely bookmark this site!

If you go to Bamberg (which I highly recommend) check out the Creche Walk. There are displays of all sizes of creches, including life-size tableaus in various churches. If you are interested in that sort of thing, it was very interesting. I picked up the map in some of the tourist info.

Thanks CarolJean, I will add that to our list of possibilities. I always love unique cultural experiences.