nessundorma,

I probably did not word this properly: Spago's food would pretty much resemble what Germans consider to be their finest food.

The big misunderstanding about German food is that it is all roast pork,. wurst etc. Well, it is not.

Asian Burgers? Beef Sate with Spicy Szechwan Sauce? Catalonian Fire Roasted Lamb Rack? Chinese Duck with Plum Sauce and Chinois Pancakes? Chinois Grilled Lamb Chops With Cilantro Mint Vinaigrette?

Those are just a handful of recipes I pulled off the Wolfgang Puck link.

If what you are saying is that Germany now prides itself on its fusion, nouvelle cooking, got it.

But I was asking what Germans consider the best or most enjoyable of their classic dishes, really.

It doesn't have to be fancy. I consider the best of American cooking to be fried chicken and even hamburgers.

Also, what fat does German cooking using for frying?

And if German food *isn't* roast pork and wurst, what is it?

>what is it?
It's cheap schnitzels and nouvelle cuisine the german way. Low fat, high fat, Tantris and Leberkäs, experimental and old fasioned!!! You need to come and taste for yourself, it's not how much a thing costs, it's all about the taste. There's pretty bad food, "system gastronomy!!", worse than you'd ever believe and there's great taste and perfection. It's not the price!, it's where you go.

And yes, there is no such thing a "german food" and never has been. Traditional food varies from one place (state) to another. Germany only exists since 1871.

Logos,

I think nessundorma is trying to lay a trap using German food as bait.

Yes, you may be right :-(. I'm a food addict :-) :-) and would really like to make him/her understand...

I am going to Germany! In about eight weeks. I'm going to Berlin. I know good food isn't about cost.

And what you say about "German" food could be said of Italian or French food too.

I'm just asking what I should eat in Berlin that people think is great. I'm happy to eat Turkish, like in New York, I almost only eat Chinese or Korean.

You'll have a choice similar to New York. If money isn't an issue, use the link.

Hi nessundorma---to expand on what logos999said, the concept of traditional "German" food is difficult, because present-day Germany is a federation of states, each with its own regional cuisine. I'm not sure what fine Berliner cuisine would be, but in most parts of Germany where I have spent time, the game dishes (i.e. venison) seemed to be the most treasured. Also certain fish dishes. Meat dishes described as "Zigeuner" ("gypsy-style") or "Jäger" ("hunter-style") are very good and quite typical of northern regions. I'm not sure what the local side dish specialities would be in Berlin---Spätzle, often mentioned here, is a southern dish. Hearty, whole-grain breads are good everywhere.

Modern German restaurants also tend to serve lighter fare, such as the "Fitnessteller", generally a grilled chicken breast with a salad.

I haven't been to Berlin since 1997, but one of my favorite restaurants then was the Mexican restaurant that is very close to the restored synagogue. It was very authentic (Mexican, not German!) and popular then, but I don't know if it still exists.

I had a great dish several times in both Germany and Switzerland - there were slight variations but it basically like a scalloped meat, either veal or chicken. The sauce was a light gravy and it was served with a vegetable and either rosti or spatzle. I'm thinking jagerschnitzel but not sure. Also, I loved the Doner Kebabs. In the US, we'd probably call them a gyro.

I seem to be the one having a hard time communicating.

Were someone to ask me about the best of Italian or French cuisine, I would also ask them what part of the country they intended to visit, but once I knew that, I would be able to name for them many specialties to try. If they were going to Paris or Rome, I might point out to them that they could get very good Moroccan and Vietnamese in Paris, or Sicilian or Ligurian food in Rome, but I'd also be able to name a couple of places -- cheap or expensive -- where they could sample classic Roman or Parisian fare.

Of course, were somebody coming to New York City, it would be much more diffiuclt to tell them where to sample good American food. New York City doesn't even have good hamburgers, and not many good rib or lobster places either. What we do have is some of the best classic Jewish delis on the planet, some great pancake places for breakfast, and some really great chicken and ribs (provided you are willing to go to Harlem).

But of course there are a lot of really great restaurants in New York.

The more basic problem is: American food isn't very good.

What I meant to write is: "But of course there are a lot of really great restaurants in New York provided you aren't looking to eat American food."

Do these restuarants mean anything to anybody?

Die Berliner Republik

Alexanderplatz
Alt-Berliner Wirtshaus "Henne"
Leuschnerdamm 25
10999 Berlin-Kreuzberg
Phone +49-(0)30-614 77 30

Crispy roast chicken served in the original ambiance of 1907 or in the beer garden. Reservations are recommended.

Moritzplatz, Kottbusser Tor
Der Kartoffelkeller
Albrechtstraße 14 b
10117 Berlin-Mitte

Opened in 1995, the "Potato Cellar" is true to its name - offering more than 100 hearty regional potato dishes. Centrally located in the government quarter in a historical cellar vault plus beer garden.

Friedrichstraße
Grand Restaurant "M"
in Maritim Hotel Berlin

Experience the original Berlin cuisine based on authentic and partly rediscovered recipes.

Potsdamer Platz
Rikes Gasthaus
in Hotel Altberlin

In Rikes Gasthaus you will be served typical Berlin dishes, which seemed to fall into oblivion. Delicacy of the restaurant: "Kutschergulasch" - a special goulash

Kurfürstenstraße, Bülowstraße
Sophieneck
Große Hamburger Straße 37
10115 Berlin-Mitte

Conveniently located near Alexanderplatz and Hackescher Markt, this traditional Berlin inn offers a mix of tasty regional and German cuisine.

Aha! Now I have found this. Specialties of Berlin:

Starters (Vorspeisen / Kleine Gerichte / Kalte Platten):

Leberknödelsuppe (soup with spicy dumplings).
Kartoffelsuppe (leek & potato soup with parsnips, celery and bacon).
Bohnensuppe (bean soup).
Linsensuppe (lentil soup with pieces of sausage).
Hackepeter (similar to steak tartare).
Soleier (pickled eggs).

Main dishes:

Havelaal grün (eel boiled in dill sauce) – fish is served fresh from the River Havel.
Havelzander & Salzkartoffeln (pike-perch and boiled potatoes).
Kartoffelpuffer (potato pancake).
Kartoffelsalat (potato salad).
Eisbein mit Sauerkraut und Erbsenpüree (pork knuckle on a puree of peas with sauerkraut in white wine, juniper berries, caraway seeds and cloves).
Gebratene Leber / Leber Berliner Art – sautéed liver with apple and onion rings.
Kasseler Rippen – smoked pork chops.
Bockwurst – boiled sausage.
Wiener – Viennese sausage.

Vegetarian dishes:

Gemüsestrudel – vegetable strudel.
Ofenkartoffel mit Kräuterquark – baked potato filled with soft cheese.

Desserts:

Rote Grütze & Vanillesosse (raspberry, cherry and blackcurrant compote with vanilla sauce).
Shwarzwälder Kirschtorte (Black Forest Gateau).

Snacks:

Boulette (meatballs).
Currywurst (sausage in a curry sauce).

nessundorma,

of course not every meal on Puck's menu is German - and mentioning Asian burgers to prove your point is a bit malicious, isn't it?

Other than that, there are venison dishes, Jaeger- and Wienerschnitzels, Goulash (well actually Hungarian, but there is common history from the Habsburg times), bacon wrapped meatloaf, pork or veal Geschnetzeltes, chicken paprika, wiener backhendl, to name just a few on his menu. All of them German/Austrian influenced dishes.

So when asking whether there just aren't any good chefs that have made it across the pond importing the style of cuisine prevalent in German speaking Europe, this would be the answer - like it or not.

BTW from the menu you are referencing to offer typically Berlin specialties, there is Kassler (well its origins evidently are in Kassel, otherwise it would be Berliner, wouldn't it?), Schwarzwaelder Kirschtorte (from the Black Forest), Rote Gruetze (from Northern Germany/ also to be found in Denmark by the name of Roede Groed) and Leberknoedelsuppe, all of which I would seriously doubt to have their roots in Berlin.

German cuisine, this should be obvious by now, is hard to describe - but at least in more ambitious restaurants nowadays often includes influences from other cuisine styles (from other domestic regions or other countries) and thus often can be labelled as fusion, if you wish.

I have not heard of any of the restaurants you mention. If looking for German cuisine styles in Berlin, I would always suggest Lutter & Wegener on Gendarmenmarkt, Borchardt (just around the corner near Gendarmenmarkt), Gugelhof (on Knaaackstr. in Prenzlauer Berg, although it has an Alsatian background), Ottenthal (Austrian influence on Kantstr. in Charlottenburg) and Meinrad (also Austrian in Charlottenburg), all of which I have been to and found reasonably nice.

Gourmet experiences would include Vaux, Margaux and Facil.

Finally, former chancellor Schroeder once visited "Zur letzten Instanz" with former American president Clinton. This would likely feature the most regionally influenced cuisine. It is located on Waisenstr. in Mitte.
I think fellow Fodorite caroline_edinburgh has some favourable experience with it.

hsv,

Thanks for the restaurant info but I must clear up several misunderstandings. I was not being malicious! I was using *your* link and trying to figure out what you were saying. The five appetizers listed on Puck's website are: Barbecue Chicken Quesadillas; Bay Scallop, Shrimp, and Ahi Tuna Ceviche in Tortilla Cups; Beef Sate with Spicy Szechwan Sauce; Black and Green Olive Tapenade; Bruschetta Trio and California Guacomole. The first salads are: Chino Chopped Vegetable Salad; Chinois Chicken Salad; Chinois Chicken Salad in Wonton Cups with Chinese Mustard Vinaigrette and Cold Paella Salad. And so it goes.

Also, I did *not* suggest or even ask whether good German chefs have come to America, nor was I dissing Wolfgang Puck. I was pointing out that up until very recently Italian-American and Chinese-American cuisine have not been anywhere near as good as the native, authentic cuisines of Italy and China. I was asking if the same thing had happened to German cuisine in America.

Anyway, when I'm in Berlin I think I'm going to skip the Currywurst but I will track down the Eisbein mit Sauerkraut und Erbsenpüree.

Is there a Lutter & Wegener in Munich as well? If so, best meal I had in Germany. But I had forgotten the name.

I'll bet 1 Euro that all sausages are salted to preserve...its an ancient thing to do.

and Leberknödelsuppe (soup with spicy dumplings), isn't that a liver dumpling in a broth like soup? Delicious too.

I'll disagree on Chinese and Italian dishes in the USA. They are often different (sometimes very different) from what you get in China and in Italy as immigrants adapted to the ingredients available in their new home. But that doesn't make them less "good." Just different and not "authentic." Keep in mind that there are differences even within China and Italy amongst the various regions depending on what is available to cooks in those regions.

In some cases I prefer the "authentic" variety of a particular dish, in other cases the "Americanized" version.

American pizza can rival any in the world. No, I'm not talking about Little Caesar's or Pizza Hut--rather many of the independent pizza places scattered throughout the USA often owned by immigrants (or the decendents of immigrants) from southern Italy and Sicily.

Many of these folks have taken full advantage of the large variety of raw materials and cuisines available in the country and are not unduly bound by custom and tradition. They have created an entire food subculture surrounding the humble pizza "pie."

If you're ever in Maryland, try Procolino's Pizza in Chestertown or the white pizza with spinach and roasted red peppers at Classico Pizzeria in Westminster.

Some of the best Italian meals I ever had anywhere in the world were from Scotto's Restaurant in Westminster, Maryland--too bad the Italian owner/chef was a terrible businessman. Though there was a place in Rome in the vicinity of Piazza Verbano and Via Chiana that was right up there. Actually, there was a pretty good Italian restaurant in Walldorf, Germany not far from FRA and the Holocaust Memorial Wood.

Now I'm hungry.

There is no accounting for taste, and when I'm in Maryland, I don't eat American-Italian food. But I'm hoping the German food I have in Germany is better than what I've been served in American German restaurants.

It used to be that German cuisine was the top cuisine in New York. But two wars did those restaurants in, and when the foodie trend heated up it coincided with a mania for being thin, and German food and people are thought of as heavy.

(I meant to add Mexican and Indian as two cuisines which have suffered greatly from American reinterpretation.)

ness--you just haven't hit the right Italian-American restaurants. Not talking Olive Garden here.