FRUSTRATED!!!
 

I have been using the asian site for awhile and am currently venturing out to do some travelling/vacationing in Europe....not too sure where to go, so I posted this question yesterday: <BR> <BR>Any advise on where to go and what to see and where to stay (hotel) in europe. <BR> <BR>Plans: <BR>.2 weeks available on our schedule <BR>.we intend to go late this year (Sept, Oct, Nov) <BR>.don't really mind where we go <BR>.we are not backpackers, like to stay in medium rate to above average hotels <BR>.like to shop and explore our surroundings and blend in as much as possible eventhough staying in a hotel <BR> <BR>thanks everyone for your advise...we have travelled much to ASIA and now we are dedicated to the Europe side...we need to explore and educate ourselves of this part of the world! <BR> <BR>cheers everyone! <BR> <BR>I found that out of the 3 responses that I received that only RICHARDAB answered my question and helped me out as oppose to telling me to go to the library! <BR> <BR>I thought this site was for us to swap travel ideas, tips, and stories...didn't know I would have to visit a library first!!!! <BR> <BR>MY REQUEST FOR SUGGESTIONS FOR MY EUROPE TRAVEL/VACATION STILL REMAINS....please advise/suggest on this topic. <BR> <BR>Please don't post any replies if you are not going to be helpful with my situation...I find it frustrating!! <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Sorry you're frustrated. If you have two weeks, it truly depends on whether you are more city-oriented or getting-to-know-one-country oriented. You could easily spend two weeks in "just" London and Paris and have more than enough to do. You could also spend the two weeks doing a trip to Italy: Rome, Venice and Florence perhaps. Either one of these would be great if you love to shop, as you say. It's hard to help without knowing more of your inclinations: interests (arts, history, etc.; someone who's first and foremost an art history buff is going to do a different trip from someone who loves hiking more than anything in the world), language abilities (if you speak French, I think you'd have more of the "blend into your surroundings" experience than most would in France), culinary tastes, etc. <BR> <BR>I think people will be more than willing to help and give advice when they have more of a sense of who you are. <BR> <BR>Now, if you can give me info/recommendations on tour companies who work in Vietnam, I'll see what else I can do for you. :)

Dear Frustrated: Be as specific as possible and you will get lots of hints and help. <BR>I think you got vague answers because you did not say much about what interested you. <BR>Once you decide upon some destinations, I will be glad to assist, particularly with Paris, Italy and London. <BR>Happy traveling <BR>

Hi JHM and Lee. <BR> <BR>thanks for the kind response and suggestions...much appreciated. <BR> <BR>JHM, most of my trips have been conducted by this company (they are packaged tours) - try this website and talk to your travel agent about getting the package from this tour company. their website is www.toureast.com. I visit the canadian site as I live in Toronto. I find the Toronto site is better. www.toureast.ca. <BR> <BR>Happy travels to Vietnam...we have only been to Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Bali as they are our favourite spots....if you need any advise on these areas let me know!

Asia, <BR> <BR>I saw your prior message, and I didn't respond because I didn't know how to address such a broad question, not because I wished to frustrate you. You have to give us a little something to go on. Given the info you provided, one of us could probably suggest 40 itineraries for you, and that's pretty time-consuming for everyone. Decide where you want to go based on what you like to do, and then take it from there. <BR> <BR>But if I were taking my first trip to Europe, and if I had two weeks, I'd spend a week in France and a week in Italy. But that's just me.

I thought that I provided you with a lead to a very specific answer - - an entire trip - - and cordially invited you to come along. <BR> <BR>Perhaps you didnt see it (but I thought you did) - - www.rexbickers.italy.com - - a trip put together for visitors to this site, totally non-commercial and non-profit for all involved in it - - for "wanna-be" independent travelers who see some advantage in pooling resources, and doing some things (like staying in a villa) not easily included on a trip of just one or two people. <BR> <BR>The breadth of your question is off-putting to a lot of people here. It's like asking "can you recommend some good restaurants, in the United States?" <BR> <BR>But nevertheless, I hope that you increasingly this forum to be a warm and welcoming place. <BR> <BR>Best wishes, <BR> <BR>Rex <BR>

Rex and Cindy....thanks for responding...I am encouraged now because of people like you...you definitely make a difference....yes Rex I did see your posting on travelling with a group of people...will consider that. <BR> <BR>I have to say that my question isn't really meant to be specific as I myself don't know where I should concentrate on when going to Europe which is why I need your suggestions on what you think would be best based on your travelling expertise to that part of the world. <BR> <BR>I did indicated that we don't really mind where we go in Europe therefore opening the forum up for everyone else to comment on where they think is best for 2 weeks, during the 3 months of choice which I indicated and also the type of hotels (medium to above average rate). <BR> <BR>thanks again for your helpful comments. <BR> <BR>cheers!

Might I be a little specific? I don't know your interests yet. However, I will advise you anyway to either spend a week in Paris and the rest nearby (maybe in France or Germany) or spend the whole two weeks in Italy (Florence, Rome, Venice, Sienna, etc.), and I can guarantee you a good introduction to what is so great about traveling to Europe.

Hello Asia, My advice is to keep it regional. The time of year is a factor. There is a big difference in Sep and Nov. in some regions--like the Alps. <BR>To get you thinking, here are some of my favorite 2 week itineraries. Let me know if you need more help. <BR> BOB the NAVIGATORS’ FIVE FAVORITE ITINERARIES <BR>________________________________________ <BR> <BR>MAGICAL FAIRYLANDS: <BR> * Arrive and depart from Munich--14 nites--May thru Sep.--car travel <BR> * ITINERARY: Salzburg, Dolomites, Venice, Lake Garda, Bavaria <BR>======================================== <BR>BELLA ITALIA: <BR> * Arrive Milan, depart Venice--15 nites--car & train travel--April thru Oct. <BR> * ITINERARY: The Lakes, Ligurian coast, Tuscany, Florence, Venice <BR>======================================== <BR>CLASSIC ITALIA: <BR> * Arrive & depart Rome--12 to 14 nites--car & train travel, all year <BR> * ITINERARY: Florence, Tuscan & Umbrian hilltowns, Rome <BR>======================================== <BR>LA DOLCE VITA: <BR> * Arrive & depart Rome--12 nites--car & train travel--March thru Oct. <BR> * ITINERARY: Amalfi coast, Tuscany hilltowns, Rome <BR>======================================== <BR>OF ALPS & LAKES: <BR> <BR> * Arrive and depart Zurich--12 nites--train travel--June thru Sep. <BR> * ITINERARY: Berner Oberland, Lugano, Lake Como, Luzern <BR>======================================== <BR>These are merely intended to be sample itineraries. There is also a good potential itinerary in Spain and Portugal for fall travel. I would stay south for this trip, especially after Oct 15. Northern Europe--that means north of the Alps--can get chilly.

For our first European trip, I called a travel agent and told her my general date time-frame, and that I wanted to spend under "x" $, and were interested in Paris, London, Madrid, or Rome. (We were planning for one week, and enjoy big cities.) She came back with suggestions for Paris and London, which I then researched on the web and we chose Paris. Once I had a destination, I found this forum was terrific for suggestions on what not to miss, restaurants, and general atmosphere.

asia, you posted a couple of times, and did get responses from Rex, me and a couple of others. All of us basically said the same thing: here are broad suggestions, but we can't tell you what to do. If you went into a travel agency with this same request, the agent would say the same things and ask the same questions of you. These people get paid to do that sort of work; nobody here does. We're under no obligation to answer a post, and certainly no obligation to do unpaid work. Don't cop an attitude, don't tell us what to do, and don't get snotty. If you don't like the way we respond to your post, pay a travel agent and stop trying to get something for nothing. <BR> <BR> <BR>

Perhaps the tip about going to the library was fair. You are asking for everything and really not giving us much to go on. Instead of repeatedly posting your request, do a little research (read a guidebook or peruse the Fodors destination guides on this website) and come up at least a couple of your own thoughts. Surely you have some preferences (or will have some) which you can then bounce off of people on this forum.

I (and others) have posted an answer something like this before, but bears repeating - - start with WHY do YOU "think" you want go to Europe? what does Europe mean to you? what images does it conjure up for you? Castles? Milan fashions? English teas? Gothic cathedrals? the Porsche factory? Ancient Rome? sun and sea on the Riviera? bullfights? fjords? and perhaps the most important (to me) - - the wine/cheese/breads of France? <BR> <BR>Tell us what you always envisioned a trip to Europe might include - - and we will tell you where - - and how - - to find it. <BR>

It's probably unfair of you to expect meaningful advice from some of the Fodors contributors with the little information you provide regarding your interests. It's probably equally unfair for us to impose our subjective suggestions and ideas upon you with so little information to aid us. Here, nevertheless, is a thought for you to consider. With only two weeks, optimize your time by reducing travel and limiting yourself to a concentrated geographic area offering the most diversity in language, customs, scenery. Consider Paris for six days, with perhaps a day trip to Versailles. Travel to and spend four days in Belgium. Brugge being an ideal and lovely spot from which you can take day or half day trips to Ghent, Brussels or Antwerp (or even Luxembourg for a luncheon of game in the Ardennes). Move on to Amsterdam for the remainder of your journey. In doing so, you'll have exposed yourself to a good example of the diversity of Europe and its peoples.

Sounds to me like you'd like opinions. So here you go: <BR>FIRST: Tell yourself that you will go back, many times, so you do not have to see it all this time. <BR>NEXT: Have a very open mind once you are there and go with the flow. This will help you avoid frustration (like you feel about this board) when your expectations are not met. Since you have travelled in Asia, you know what I mean. <BR> <BR>My opinion on where to go in 2 weeks (rent a car after Paris and be prepared to drive): <BR>1. France <BR>Paris for 4 nights (remember, you will come back) <BR>North-easterly drive through France seeing Alsace and Burgundy regions for 2 nights <BR>2. Switzerland <BR>Lucerne 1 night (if your schedule is too tight, skip Lucerne) <BR>Grindlewald or Murren 2 nights (Interlaken area--go to top of Schilthorn or Jungfrau if it is clear. Go to ice caves) <BR>3. Austria: Salzburg 1 night <BR>4. Germany <BR>Fussen 1 night (see the Castle) <BR>Munich 1-2 nights (see Munich itself and Dachau) <BR>Rothenburg 1 night <BR>Frankfurt for your last night, return the car and go home. <BR> <BR>On your way home, start planning your next trip, which will be to Rome, Venice, Florence, Cinque Terre (or the Lakes region), and all of southern France. <BR> <BR>That's my opinion. But the truth is that you can't loose. Europe is a lot of fun any way you slice it. Have fun planning.

Hi This is the second posting I've seen in 2 days, asking the same question. Were you so frustrated the first time? <BR>To get to your question, What are your interests? What countries have you thought about? I've traveled mostly in Central Europe and Eastern Europe the past few years. We rent a car and stay in a fairly small geographic area, no grand tour. Eastern Europe is diferent from Western Europe not just geographically, but has a different polital background. I also travel in smaller hotels usually 2-3 star. <BR>I usually do however go to a bookstore and browse to find out where I may be interested in going, otherwise it's a crapshoot and vacation time is too precious. <BR>alan

This is the third posting of yours I've found on line, are you THAT frustrated or just bored?

I never thought that I would suggest this, BUT with you broad question and not having TIME to do any research (I find that hard to believe) I think that you ought to go to a travel agent and book a tour that does 10 countries in 10 days. Reminds me of the movie "If this is Tuesday, this must be Belgum". This will give you the broadest view of many area of Europe and you can better decide where you want to go to next time.

Hi everyone,<BR><BR>thanks for the information...now it seems that I might some places to concentrate on...seems interesting and I think i might have 3 specific places to visit although maybe 2 weeks is not enough.... here they are:<BR>Paris<BR>rome<BR>madrid <BR><BR>don't know which to get rid off...HELP!<BR><BR>Elvira, I find your comments harsh...no I did not tell anyone what they should be doing and so forth...maybe you should read my message again.....please don't help if you are feeling antoganistic towards my questions...I need advise and tips not negative comments. It is ironic how you told me what to do and that I am being snooty.....are you not doing exactly that to me!!! anyway , it is o.k if you don't want to participate in my request for help, but don't make me feel bad. <BR><BR>Thank you again everyone...now that I have to eliminate one of the above....which should I get rid off...horrible decision to make...they all seem fantastic based on several suggestions!

I don't know if this is too off-topis or not, but the issue of how to help the "new-comer" to Europe travel strikes me as analogous to a discussion I head on NPR yesterday - - about the challenges magazine editors face - - and they contrasted Brides magazine(s) versus Gold magazine(s). The former has a continuous flow of predominantly new readers with the same basic questions and need for information, and not many long-term readers; the latter also has a continuous flow of new readers whith many novice questions, combined with many subscribers that stay on for decades. Both face the problem of keeping the material fresh and interesting. Brides magazines know that they HAVE to run a story on brides' dresses, on cakes, on planners/planning every month - - for them, the problem is to keep the editorial staff from being bored to tears without getting too esoteric for their readers. And Golf magazine has to maintain a balance of not appearing too "snooty" for newcomers to the sport.<BR><BR>Interestingly, both were considering a story (upcoming) on helicopter trips "over" Ireland!<BR><BR>This forum has the same problem, and tolerance for the needs of the new and the insatiable appetite for "new and different" run though cycles.<BR><BR>Any of us, on any given day can post something that makes us look like "the weakest link".<BR>

Since my daughter was married just last Saturday I have a certain familiarity with Brides magazine. Found it interesting that the March-April issue weighing two and a half pounds was comprised of over 1100 pages, only 90 of which were devoted to editorial content; the rest, ads. Think the problem with its staff writers is not finding new material but rather space for any material.

Ninety pages of content is still a lot to come up with - - when it doesn't change all that much, year after year.<BR><BR>Ninety pages of actual writing is more than People magazine has in a year!<BR><BR>jk...<BR><BR>

Asia, Europe is not about big cities. It is about regions and cultures. So, do 3 destinations in France,or Italy,or Spain but why mix these 3 far flung major cities. If you must, then Madrid does not fit.

Asia, I think that Elvira was right on. I've never done a nasty post on this forum before, but you take the cake. You want us to do all of your research for you whilst you sit on your fat ass. If you came with legit questions, there is no dearth of answers waiting for you, but to come with such a broad question of "I have 2 weeks vacation, what should I do" is absurd. I think that you should stay at home

I've been watching this post for 3 days. Even though the poster has come accross like some CEO bossing around her paid underlings, some of our best and most knowlegeable forum members have tried to answer her ridiculously broad questions. Going to the library or bookstore and doing some research is an excellent suggestion.<BR> What are you planning to contribute back to this forum?<BR>What if I were to say to you that I've got 2 weaks off and I want to go to the Far East or Asia or someplace. I know nothing about the place. Where should I go? What should I eat? Where should I stay? How long? I don't have time to read about it or anything. I'm too busy to waste my time on that stuff. You just tell me everything to do. And, please don't bother to talk to me if you are not going to make me feel good!<BR>I couldn't agree with Art more. Europe has already seen its share of obnoxious, selfish and ignorant people.<BR>Stay Home!!!

I don't usually get involved in this sort of thing, but I've just about had it with lazy, self-centered, demanding brats who take no responsibility for themselves and who think they are entitled to whatever they want. Anyone who doesn't agree with that is called "unhelpful" or worse, with the intention to be made to feel small and on the defensive. Well, asia, you're a pompous, immature jerk who is completely wrong.<BR> <BR>"I found that out of the 3 responses that I received that only RICHARDAB answered my question and helped me out as oppose to telling me to go to the library!" We thought we were being helpful by suggesting a visit to a library; you should have told us up front you had no time for such nonsense like research.<BR><BR>"I thought this site was for us to swap travel ideas, tips, and stories...didn't know I would have to visit a library first!!!!" SWAP? Swap what? You offered nothing but a petulant "tell me what to do"; when asked for further information, you refused to respond with nothing but diatribes.<BR><BR>"MY REQUEST FOR SUGGESTIONS FOR MY EUROPE TRAVEL/VACATION STILL REMAINS....please advise/suggest on this topic." You use all caps, which is hollering, and I'd say that was copping a 'tude. The second ORDERS the reader to answer you. That's telling us what to do, and is downright snotty (not "snooty" - maybe you ought to learn to read better).<BR><BR>"Please don't post any replies if you are not going to be helpful with my situation...I find it frustrating!!" So, we have to guess what's helpful to your situation, because if we guess wrong, you'll be all over us like stink on shit. Who cares if you're frustrated? You brought in on yourself.<BR><BR>Wherever the hell you're from, stay there and grow up. <BR><BR><BR><BR>

Elvira....YOU GO GIRL!!!!!!<BR><BR>And Asia...didn't want to hear any more of your whining so I brought this to the top for you...you are welcome.

Asia,<BR><BR>Now we're getting somewhere! <BR><BR>You've narrowed your trip to three cities. Of those you've selected, I'd highly recommend that you spend the entire two weeks in Madrid. It is the city in which you're most likely to be bonked on the head and robbed.

Frustrated, just please go away. We are not here to help you plan the rest of your life. We owe you nothing. You obviously don't get what this is all about. The yellowdawg.

Elvira - like you I don't usually get involved in these things. I have great respect for your opinions, but I think your response is a bit over the top.

jjj, why is my response over the top? Is it because we're all so used to this nonsense that we just tolerate it? That lack of responsibility and blaming of others are now acceptable, and there's something wrong with a person who finds that intolerable? Well, I'm not going to take it anymore. If asia or any other self-centered twit wants to stand in the middle of the room like a two-year-old "mommy where's my shoe?", let 'em. When they throw a temper tantrum and become insulting because "mommy" isn't jumping to their demands, or they're being given good advice but spit on it because advice isn't really what they want - they want someone else to do all the work and take all the responsibility so that if everything goes right, they can take the credit, but if it goes wrong, they'll have someone to blame; they need to be slapped hard.

I think it is a "little" over the top, Elvira. Asia got some ("deserved") wrath by posting three times. But nothing is harder than knowing what you don't know you don't know.<BR><BR>The time it would take to ask about this three times could have been used to see the wealth of information available here - - it would be like writing into Brides magazine and asking "where can i find out about wedding dresses" - - to which we might reply "Geez, would you just thumb through the magazine for a few minutes - - and realize that you can and should formulate a better question than that!?"<BR><BR>Elvira, you answer was over the top by suggesting that this represents a character flaw. We do not know that Asia lacks personal resposibility. And it has given rise to scapegoating, and piling on, on this thread.<BR><BR>Doesn't do the forum any good, in my opinion.<BR>

Elvira, Art &amp; others: I completely agree with you. However, after watching what's going on here, I'm beginning to think this may be a troll. What do you think?

I have been shopping at Krogers for a while and am currently venturing out to do some shopping elsewhere...not too sure where to go so am posting this question.<BR><BR>Any advice on there to go and what to buy? Only answer if you are going to help me with my grocery shopping.

Rex:<BR>I first learned about this forum from an article in Forbes Magazine. They advised that whenever visting a new forum, you should "lurk awhile" until you become familiar with the "forum etiquette" before you ask anything. Too bad Fodor's doesn't give this advise to everyone.<BR>Posting 3 times has happened before and is certainly an excusable newcommer mistake. I'm sure everyone on the asia forum does this. However it went beyond this. To use your analogy it whould be more like writing to Brides magazine and saying: I don't have time to read your damned magazine and I'm not interested in a subscription so don't ask. Just tell me what's the best dress to buy!<BR>What I got from these postings was: This is how we do it on the asia forum. I tell you what I want and you give it to me. If you give me a response I don't like, I will insult you. That's called biting the hand that feeds you. I find this very offensive. If I were Elvira, I'd be angry too. In fact I am and I haven't even been attacked yet. But some posters whom I respect were insulted even though some may not even realize it.<BR>Asia: You can watch Rick Steves on TV and save the trip to the library. Just check your local listings for time and channel. He will even sell you books and tapes. And, its cheaper not to mention safer than actually taking a trip. <BR><BR>Gerry<BR>Gerry <BR><BR><BR>

Of the two, I think Elvira committed a lesser offense than Asia. but Elvira has had a lot more time to know better (I don't know anything about Asia's postings on the Asia forum).<BR><BR>I agree with you that better advice on how to use this forum would go a long way. On the www.eurotrip.com forum, and to a lesser extent on www.lonelyplanet.com - - there are clear instructions to "learn the culture" of the forum, and read messages there before posting one. Good idea.<BR><BR>It seems that fodors has always been reluctant to post "how-to" advice on using this forum. Back in April, when "hot links" were enabled (was it unintended, perhaps), they never did post any information about its use. I effectively became the technical support for this feature for a while. And today, a simpler system of URL's for a thread is possible - - and again, not a peep.<BR><BR>

Frankly, I think it was high time someone gave asia a swift kick. I'm glad Elvira did the work so I wouldn't have to.<BR><BR>As usual, Rex, you are way off base and out of line. As far as I'm concerned, it isn't your place to dress down Elvira when you have committed far more and far greater infractions.

Rex, I have appreciated a lot of good information that you have offered in this forum, but to tell Elvira that she is over the top is a little much. If she is than so am I. <BR>Barbara, I've been thinking the same thing lately. This could certainly be a troll. If so I have to admit that it is the best one yet. If not, wellll, I stand by my eralier comment that the person is a jerk.<BR>Regards<BR>

I have to agree with Rex on this one. Some replies to Asia were a bit extreme. <BR><BR>Granted, Asia appeared demanding and petulant. Assuming, however, that they are new to the Europe forum, would it not have been more productive to diplomatically and patiently point out the error of their ways? Since when does a war of words become the best option in resolving any matter? To the rather angry posters: What was the goal of your diatribe? To vent? To kick online a$$? To provide Asia with a better understanding of how this forum works? Which would have been the most productive goal? <BR><BR>If Asia is guilty of anything, it was done in his/her ignorance. I am not excusing Asia's posting, however, whether or not you feel it is incumbent upon you to enlighten him/her about forum etiquette, nothing is gained through negative dialogue.<BR><BR>To Asia: the posters are right about gathering some info before asking questions. I can't imagine that in thinking about traveling to Europe you've never had some inkling as to what would interest you. What cities or countries have you dreamed about visitng? Europe is many things, many cultures, many peoples- not monocultural.

Perhaps Asia is overwhelmed about where to go and what to do. Yes, more research is required on Asia's part, but I think some people here could be a little kinder. If a new person was reading this, there would only be the "experienced" travelers left to converse amongst themselves -- everyone else would be frightened away!<BR><BR>Not everyone has the finances or time to think that they're going to come back to Europe, so they're looking at it as it's their only shot (obviously Asia has other travel experiences, and is looking forward to more). For many, it's the "trip of a lifetime", and looking for guidance is what they're doing. They DON'T know where to go, DON'T know what to do, and want to see EVERYTHING! How can you choose? Where do you start? Europe is too full of history, art and culture to be less than overwhelming. And to read through these posts as a newcomer is discouraging, at best. <BR><BR>Most of us have made trip choices based on friends' experiences, our desires, our business travels and what we read or see on tv or in the papers. And we always struggle with the choice. Most of us are unable to make several trips to Paris, Rome, etc. This is the one shot we get. And it's not only a "new city" for us to explore, it's also the language, the hospitality, the hotels, the food, everything is a shock!<BR><BR>Asia, I would also suggest a "bus tour" of the major cities -- that way, when you're ready, you can go back to the region or city that interested you most.<BR><BR>Or try this: <BR><BR>Paris to experience "joie de vivre"<BR><BR>London for a look at "Charles Dickens"<BR><BR>Rome for feeling like a "Gladiator"<BR><BR>Madrid for sangria and paella (and bullfighting -- art in itself if you can get past all the other gut wrenching stuff)<BR><BR>Venice for romance<BR><BR>Florence for art<BR><BR>Vienna for feeling regal<BR><BR>Prague for shopping<BR><BR>Amsterdam for culture shock!<BR><BR>Brussels for rain (and the BD museum)<BR><BR>And can I remind everyone that not everyone who posts here is American? That some things just don't translate well? For those who speak French but have English as their primary language think of "demander." Not the same intensity in French (to ask) as English (to ask without leaving room for a "no"), so perhaps there is something in the translation when you read these posts too. <BR><BR>