Frog RIP
 

More pc censorship - I was trying to post this beore we were censored -

http://www.frogpubs.com/

sort of puts the "its the greatest racist insult around" theory in context

???

sheila,

a thread got out of hand about calling people from France frogs. It decomposed into using a different type of term in reference to something else.

The French have never given a hoot about being called frogs by the English speaking world. They think it is mildly amusing and often use the term to describe themselves when speaking English.

I like the motto.
I bet lots of amphibians frequent those pubs.

Kerouac: I know, because you are a permanent ex-pat from Mississippi living in Paris, that you think yourself the expert on all things French, but I am telling you, I would no more think of using that word to describe the French when talking to my French friends as I would using racially or ethnically offensive terms to describe people from other countries, because I KNOW, I do not think, I KNOW they would be offended, and it IS an insulting, offensive term to describe the French, whatever YOU or others may think to the contrary, since you declare yourself as the expert on what ALL French think.

And none of my French friends would think it ok. And would not think much of you to refer to any French person by calling them a frog.

Maybe Kerouac has different friends than you, that's all.

French wine company:
http://www.arrogantfrog.fr

French internet group frognet, excerpt from scientific paper describing it:

<<Frognet, the name given to the French Virtual Community, was initiated by the French Embassy in Washington in March 92. ...Originally intended for the use of French researchers in the United States, Frognet is a network of French and francophiles in non-French speaking countries. Its name resulted from the network's first members who formed the French Researchers OrGanization known as FROG. Services include Frognews, the largest service and by far the most popular, is our "locomotive"..."


I guess the French embassy aren't your friends.

Oh well, that's a shame because we've been doing it since 1415 and we're very unlikely to stop now.

Christina, if you wish to believe that that acronym put together by the French Embassy somehow makes it acceptable to call the French "frogs" then go right ahead. My response is, context is everything.

URL of complete paper abstract in case you think I made that up (I've used that group a long time ago as I am a researcher, which is why I know about it).

I believe that some people have senses of humor and some do not, and you don't speak for everything French, either and what you do when talking to your French friends is not necessarily the norm for everything and everybody and every situation.

seems like those who are not French or live in France are the ones objecting. For me i'll take Kerouac's word on this because my French son, i asked him again about the frog word and like Kerouac he just chuckled and said it's rather in fun in the current context

things may have been different before perhaps

" French friends as I would using racially or ethnically offensive terms to describe people from other countries"

I don't think racist or ethnically offensive will stick, we are pretty much the same mongrel mob genetically.

I only use the term Frog with Frogs that I know very well. I have never seen anyone offended. Amused as Kerouac points out.

I get Rosbif in return, and I don't see anyone objecting to that term.

It is not as if either the French or English are downtrodden minorities who need over-sensitive PC protection.

I propose a deal: Overly sensitive septics can stop calling the cheese eating surrender monkeys frogs and the rosbifs can carry on.

How's that sound?

"I don't think racist or ethnically ffensive will stick, we are pretty much the same mongrel mob genetically."

Speak for yourself Waring - north of Watford gap services we show a closer genetic match to Sven the Impaler and Tostig. Although at the rate Ulrika Jonsson is reproducing with any bloke in sight the same could be said of greater London in 5 years time.

Girlspy, I may have been born and raised in Mississippi, but I was registered at the French consulate in New Orleans the moment I was born and traveled on my mother's French passport for the first 6 years of my life.

audere - surrender ? they didn't surrender did they ? - I thought they ground the Germans down to such an extent that winning the war was a certainty.

Anyway, many of the French find the term 'frog' appropriate because it starts with 'fr' and they love alliterations. If English speakers had called them 'toads' even if they ate toads' legs, they might not have liked it as much.

As for those French who don't like the term 'frog,' I would say that in 90% of the cases, what they don't like is the tone of the speaker, not the actual word.

It's a yank phrase from the simpsons - said by a cartoon jock.

The ham-shanks were bandying it around at the time of the Iraq invasion.

But yeah - they did surrender; and to us lots of times too.

"If English speakers had called them 'toads' even if they ate toads' legs, they might not have liked it as much."

One of my favourite Frog baiting techniques is to refuse to distinguish between frogs and toads, similarly for slugs and snails"

"C'est la même bête!"

Drives em spare!

No one really knows for sure why we call 'em frogs do they? Also that thing about the v-sign being from Agincourt is pony too.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Where did the v sign come from then?

It's another one that's lost in the mists of time....

I know the v sign/Agincourt story, but I know our audacious chum will tell it much better....

The story is that the French prior to Agincourt announced that every English (or more likely welsh) archer captured would have the first two fingers of their right hand cut off so they could no longer use the feared English long-bow.

So as a show of defiance the English waved there two fingers in a v-sign to insult the French.

It has no been adopted as the physical way to instruct someone to combine travel with sexual intercourse.

The thing is; sadly, it's complete bollocks. Back then the opposition just killed ordinary soldiers. They ransomed the nobles, but johnny six-meads just got bumped off.

No one actually knows where it comes from.

On frogs:

One possibility for the frogs thing is that paris used to be surrounded by marsh. Thus those sophisticated urban types referred to those beyond the city walls contemptously as "frogs" and it sort of stuck.

Again no one really knows. But we've been calling the frogs frogs since 1415* and we aint about to stop now.

*note to the septics: This doesn't mean a quarter past two!

History's a wonderful thing - you should try it!

The frog goes back to Clovis ,King of the Franks, who established Paris. It was his royal symbol which evolved into the Fleur de Lys...well that's according to Google.

so is hystery

I find the entire discussion Ribetting.

((H))

And if a frog had four legs he wouldn't bump his ass on the ground (Bobby Knight)

As I indicated in a previous discussion on this very same topic, I cannot speak for French living in France. However, if you ever come to Montreal, Québec or any other city within the province of Québec and call a francophone a "frog", I surely hope you can either

a) run fast; or
b) are able to handle a fight

Honestly, don't even try it as a joke.

The frog goes back to Clovis ,King of the Franks, who established Paris. It was his royal symbol which evolved into the Fleur de Lys...well that's according to Google.>>>>>

Again it's another good story, and again it's bollocks.

Clovis et al were around in the 500s and the insult isn't that old.

Also the Fleur de Lys is a lily.

No one has the foggiest really.

did you mean no one has the froggiest :)

People in Quebec perhaps suffer from the same pathological hypersensitivity that afflicts so many Americans. The French themselves (the real French, not French-Canadians) don't really care much about being called frogs.

If the French find something objectionable, rest assured, they'll tell you about it. In the meantime, they don't need anyone to defend them from imaginary insults.

It's not a pathology, Anthony, it's history.

Until de 1970s or so, English speaking people ruled as the leading economic class in Montreal and controled finance and business. It lead to curious situations where, at Eatons' for example, a French employee had to address a French customer in English.

English people used to call us Frogs and it sticked to these days.

So, as I said, I cannot speak for French living in France but don't use it while visiting the province of Québec.

In Toronto, though, they will still find it funny....

LOL cigale..
This is wonderful, please, continue.

Girlspytravel: "my response is, context is everything". Your "context" is very different from Kerouac's, not "better", not "more informed, not "true", just different. He/she (Kerouac) appears to be comfortable and accepting of this, perhaps you should be as well. Vive la difference!

So true. My reality is not his. and maybe my friends are more sensitive .
The same with my family, if anyone called them wops(born in Italy)
that would be totally unacceptable.

I hear they're hopping mad.

Seriously, if you're going to get upset at every offensive thing the bloody Sassenachs spout out, you're not going to have any time to enjoy yourself. Let the friggin' Poms have their "frogs" and "septics", and smell the roses.

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