French to Snuff Out Smoking...
 

in public places totally! That's the recommendation of a minister and seems destined to become policy.

(Based on NPR report this morning)

The law will apply to all public places and it's hoped that it will be strictly enforced unlike the farcical enforcement of laws currently that restrict smoking on transport, in offices, train stations, etc.

The government commission recommending it says they will probably due it by government edict rather than by Parliamentary law because of the tobacco lobby's strong presence there.

The ones most upset about the new law seem to be the countries thousands of tobacconists - tobacco in France it said is only sold in "Tabacs", government licensed tobacco shops. And many of these shops are in cafes where smoking along with a drink is a long cherished tradition - one tabac owner lamented it wouldn't be the same if over a morning coffee a smoker had to go outside to smoke his fag.

Today there are no-smoking tables by law in all cafes and restaurants though this is a farce in actuality. Many such 'no-smoking' tables are one or a few tables with a no-smoking sign on it surrounded by smokers. Violations even of this law are rife - recently in a train station cafe a smoker was puffing away whilst sitting in the only non-smoking table. In Austerlitz station i was sitting next to a teenager and during the announcement "the station is wholly non-smoking" the kid lit up a cigarette without worry. A conductor checking tickets in the station was also smoking in violation of the rules. On and on - now in the future i hope that a person's right to smoke in France ends at my nose!

Laws are one thing...enforcement another. The French official interviewed said that if Ireland, Italy and New York City could do why not Paris and France. He said Paris is changing like the rest and it's inevitable.

But French cafes without smoke? Now that will be a breathe of fresh air in spite of the tradition of dangling cigarettes in mouths of patrons.

It won't work, too many smokers.

It's about time! Second-hand smoke contains over 60 know carcinogens and, according to the US Surgeon General, killed 49,000 non-smokers in the US in 2005 alone.

The smoking ban not only "worked" in New York City, it was/is a huge success. It will work in France as well.

I wonder how it's working in Italy, which is where you'd think it would lack enforcement might as Italians routinely avoid laws as regards traffic, parking, taxes, etc.

Any reports on how no-smoking caffes are turning out?

I just returned from 2 weeks in Italy, and the Italians, miraculously, are obeying the smoking ban at an incredible rate (much to many's surprise).

Even the NY Times commented on it in a recent book review, the high compliance rate.

Personally, during my 2 weeks there, I did not see even one person violating the ban. Italians, like New Yorkers, respectfully stepped outside to light up their cancer sticks.

I was in Rome, Venice and Siena in April of '05, fairly shortly after the rule went into effect.

At the time, it appeared to pretty well enforced. We even had some nice chats in Venice with a Roman couple who was also stepping outside for smokes between dinner courses. The waiter was working the timing perfectly - and consciously - for all of us.

I've since quit, but I appreciate that waiter's consideration and that couple's conversation.

France? Wow, it hardly seems possible. But then again, the Irish seem to have pulled it off.

The NPR report said 78% of French people polled were in favor of the smoking ban! This obviously includes some smokers.

It's like on trains that used to have smoking sections - even non-smokers liked to sit in them and then when they needed a smoke, go to the smoking car or buffet car!

Well, they did a much-touted smoking ban in Spain this year and it's turned out to be a complete joke. The reason: too many smokers. The percentage of smokers in France is similar to that of Spain (around 33%), which is much higher than Italy's (23%) and NYC. http://tinyurl.com/kbh7o

My prediction is that the law in France won't be enforced, just as the existing one hasn't for 15 (?) years. They'll need to decrease the number of smokers first.

Maybe with the population getting older they'll die off.

In spite of all the predictions to the contrary, it's working very well in Italy, and the number of smokers is diminishing as more and more people are quitting (though, unfortunately, the number of young smokers seems to be increasing).

Part of the reason it's not working in Spain is that restaurants were given a choice to go totally non-smoking or not. Force of habit: most continue to allow smoking.

I have gotten so spoiled now that I was shocked and horrified to be subjected to smoke in a restaurant in Amsterdam. If more countries would just get over their fears (and ignore the shrieks of the beleaguered smokers), they'd find that the vast majority of the public and restaurant owners are a lot happier with the ban.

best regards,
Deirdré Straughan

beginningwithi.com

You are partially right about the half-assed law in Spain. Only the small bars/restaurants were given the choice, the large ones had to go non-smoking but many didn't. And in fact now people are smoking even in the large restaurants who did comply with the law! The number of fines given is ridicolous (like 8 fines in whole Barcelona in 9 months). A total ban wouldn't have worked, because of the sheer number of smokers (actually 33% of smokers seems low to me for Spain, I'd read 40% elsewhere).

By the way I never predicted it wouldn't work in Italy. Percentage there was 23% before the ban, I don't know what it is now. If it works in France it will be a huge improvement, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I thought you were required to smoke in French cafes ?!?! I don't smoke, but I don't see this being enforced.

It's certainly catching on.
Wales will be smoke free in public places from next year. I think it will be difficult to implement at first but after some length of time it will become normal practice, just like everything else.

I long for a smoke free night out down my local.

Not sure how it will effect pub business here in Wales.

France however is a different story, as French people don't abide by hardly any rules and do seem to do what they want. ;-) Also I suspect the ratio of smokers may be higher in France than Wales, although I haven't checked.

Muck
Muck

This is the best news since they passed the law about cleaning up after your dogs. I was convinced that would never work, but what a change that one has made!

A lot of places in France got wind of the imminent change a year ago already and have gone completely non smoking already, with absolutely no problem. 80% of the French support a public smoking ban, so I really do not understand why some people doubt that it will take hold.

There was even an article in the Biloxi Sun Herald this week about possibly banning smoking in restaurants in Mississippi, so maybe there is hope that it will catch on in the United States.

People seem to want to believe these plans won't work. Anyone who's been though it as many of us have even in the US have heard the "it will put restaurants out of business --- no one will eat out anymore -- or even, no one will enforce it". Yet time after time it has worked almost everywhere it has been put into effect. Who would have ever guessed there would be no more smoking in Irish pubs? Or on Italian trains?

And Irish pubs, by all reports are thriving more than ever - many have even set up smoking areas in heated shelters outside and are doing more business in non-smoking insides and lots outside.

But the fact that current smoking laws are so wantonly ignored in France may signal that any law will be similarly enforced, but over time yes will win out.

Increduously at CDG Customs once, two customs officials were puffing away while scutinzing passengers and both were right in front of a huge no-smoking sign!

"Well, they did a much-touted smoking ban in Spain this year and it's turned out to be a complete joke. The reason: too many smokers. The percentage of smokers in France is similar to that of Spain (around 33%), which is much higher than Italy's (23%)"............

not much "works" in spain since the enforcement of the law is so lax. but just wait until they are given the order to enforce.. be prepared.
they don't mess around.

same with absolutely everything.

it's not so much as "half-assed laws" as half=assed enforcement, and total lack of civc resposibility.

if not.. what explains the pooed up sidewalks across the nation (exxcept in a FEW civicly conscious regions..).

we have great laws here.. but such a high tolerance rate of everything specified in them.. i don't see any great changes in the near future.

But the law was half-assed (as well as the enforcement). What sense does it make to allow smoking in bars if they are under 100 square meters? If anything, it should be the other way around as in a small room smoke will be denser and the effect on worker's health worse.

Hmmmmm,

I wonder if they will get around to banning smoking in "coffee shops" in The Netherlands?

((I))

To get back to the basics, the government has pretty much decided to act by decree rather than parliamentary vote -- this gets weak little local representatives out of hot water with their constituents because they can claim "I had nothing to do with it."
There is still some wavering on exceptions. Generally, the two exceptions that are made in every country are prisons and psychiatric hospitals, but there has been talk of casinos, discos and cafés with a tobacconist counter (like in the film "Amélie" -- speaking of which, that real Paris café got rid of the tobacco counter 2 years ago). Personally, I don't think that they can dare to make any exceptions other than the first two unavoidable ones.

2007 is an election year in France, which makes the situation even more difficult, but the party in power knows that the ban is inevitable, so there's no point in appearing weak on the subject. After all, the next subject on the agenda will be gay marriage, and they can't wiggle out of that one either.

I wonder if gays will be allowed to smoke at their marriages?

No smoking in public places in France? When cochons fly, I think.

The French will be up in arms over this, but they'll lose.

Gosh, I didn't know Spain wasn't enforcing the smoking ban. We went to Italy purely because it was so nice to eat in Ireland without the smoke and we heard it was working well. I know my DH will probably want to change our plans to go to Spain in '07 because of this. Oh well, we certainly loved Italy! Hopefully France will enforce the ban and adopt it with grace. Now for us Americans to get on the ball....

You will find a few restaurants that have physical separation between smoking and non-smoking sections (as the law dictates). But everywhere else be prepared for a lot of smoking. In fact smoke lingers in the streets!

kerouac -
The assumed exemption for psych and prisons is fading. In the US psychiatric facilites are going smoke free because it is a requirement for accreditation, and even prisons have begun to get on the bandwagon.

Like it or not, all western Europeans have pretty much lost all sense of individual choice and freedom with regard to almost everything. Regulation is their life now. So, whatever comes down from Paris or Brussels, the French will meekly go along. It will be interesting to see what happens in France when Brussels outlaws foie gras. It won't be long.

I'm not sure what was meant by that last comment about abondoning sense of personal choice for regulation. Does that mean they no longer will stand for the wish of a small percentage over the wishes of the majority?

Don't want to get into an endless discussion, so I will stipulate that the answer to your question is "yes." The minority must submit to the majority (as represented by "dirigistes" and "functionnaires") in Paris and Brussels.

when this all started happening in the US a few years ago, most people here in europe (smokers AND nonsmokers) looked smugly across the atlantic:

"this will never happen here. the americans want to regulate everything, they are obsessed with health." many people were laughing at it like it was just another "stupid american thing". now nobody is laughing.

i'm not saying whether the regulations are right or wrong, just commenting on how this was such a joke just a few years ago in europe and how very quickly europe is getting in line with the US on this.

PalanqueBob, Eric S, Vedette, etc :

Well, this is quite a nice string of anglo-saxon cliches about France : "patrons with dangling cigarettes", "smoked-filled cafes", "foie gras", "dog poo"... etc.

The ban worked well in Italy,Ireland but of course it won't be enforced in France, many say on this thread. Sub message : the Italians, the Irish are a bit like us, exemplary Americans, but the French...As usual, the Irish, Italians, as significant elements of the US mix, are "covered" by political correctness, while it's always open season on the French.

I am a non smoker, and, of course, I hope a total ban will be enforced.

However, smoking has been banned in France since 1990, and it's enforced on the workplace, on trains, airplanes, airports, train stations (well... not always on the open-air platforms), schools, post offices, hospitals...

The Evin law of 1990 provided for derogations for restaurants and cafes, giving them the obligation to open a non-smoking section, which exists in the larger places. Of course this is not efficient, as the non-smoking sections, usually located in the back of establishments, get second-hand smoke.

As it has been underlined, public opinion is in favour of a total ban. For its part, the French catering profession has recently evolved on the smoking issue. After initially warning that a total ban would "kill business", in reference to alleged sharp drops in turnover in Ireland and Italy catering places, the cafe and restaurant business associations are now fearful fresh legal action from employees on health damages related to second-hand smoke, following recent court rulings (a case involving gambling house owners and employees is underway).

Even as a non-smoker,I am always amazed by the current anti-smoking hysteria of Americans. In a country which has marketed its tobacco brands around the world, it is indeed surprising that smoking, in just a few decades, has turned from something glamourous (in 1950's films, everything seems to be in a haze...) to a shameful activity, making smokers social pariahs. Is this anti-smoking crusade simply new territory for puritanism?

When someone else's vice becomes a threat to my own health and comfort, it has nothing to do with puritanism and everything to do with self-preservation.

Besides, with health care costs for smokers effecting my pocketbook, it certainly is my business if people choose to smoke.

Increasing numbers of U.S. towns are banning smoking in parks and beaches. Some have even banned it everywhere besides private homes and automobiles. No outdoor smoking!

As I pointed out earlier, there are places in the United States where people are still puffing away. It is as incorrect to say "it's this way in the United States" as to say "it's that way in Europe" -- there is a lot of geography and different cultures in both places, and things are far from uniform.

As to whether people will respect a new law instantly in France or any other country, I don't think people started respecting it overnight in the parts of the U.S. that first implemented a ban. I remember seeing people all over NYC who were smoking in places where it was forbidden. When smoking was first banned in Paris metro stations, I would say that the ban was respected at first by about 80% of the smokers, then 85%, then 90% and now by about 99.9% -- you can still see bums and suburban teens and even a white collar outlaw with a cigarette from time to time.

"However, smoking has been banned in France since 1990, and it's enforced on the workplace, on trains, airplanes, airports, train stations (well... not always on the open-air platforms), schools, post offices, hospitals..."

Trudaine, I don't know if you live in France. I have lived and worked in France many years until recently. The 1991 Evin law most definitely has been enforced very weakly, if at all! In the workplace (including schools and universities) people smoke away, as well as in train and metro stations. I used to work in a public establishment and half of the people smoked in the office. It got a bit better after 2003. You can find more information on http://dnf.asso.fr/

Also, some people in this thread have given arguments why they think the proposed ban won't work in France, so address those instead of calling people prejudiced, anglos, or whatnot.

your reference to puritanism is completely off the mark. It's a health and quality of life issue.

My Paris office became smokefree in 1993.

Lucky you. In my office everyone smoked cigarettes, and the director cigars! In 2003.

We just had the labor inspector intervene a few times and the problem was solved.

Now if Big Brother would just do something about all the obese people who are running up my health costs & take up too much space on planes, trains & buses & the drinkers who kill thousands every year, cause a lot of crime, not to mention domestic violence & also run up health costs & really, unprotected sex needs to be outlawed because AIDS & unwanted pregnancy cost a LOT.

It's funny/odd how when someone dies of lung cancer if they're famous & a smoker there's a mention that they smoked which always gives me the impression the obit is saying in an underhanded way "they deserved it." If someone dies of AIDS nobody mentions the cause. Both are tragic but the double standard is, to my way of thinking quite obvious.

I don't smoke, by the way.

in spain you will be able to find many small non-smoking cafes and restaurants..although you may have to search a little bit. they all have a sign on the window as being a smoking or NON smoking cafe. hopefully soon there will be enough interested inspectors to actually do their job on the larger cafes to see if they have built the correct ventilation/separation system.

i also was pleasantly shocked in italy as to their strict adherence to the law. i was very impressed, and assumed they would strut a similar mediterranean rebelious individualistic attitude.. however, i have been told that the fines to both the smoker and owners were /are very steep and are srtictly enforced.

good job!