No tipping in restaurants in France--<i>le service est compris</i>. None of my French friends do it.

At most, one leaves the change up to the next euro on the table.

>> And using a 'cuillère à glace' would forever ban you from being re-invited<<

There were once people in England who thought that about fish knives (or affected to) - you were supposed to use a fork to flake the fish off the bone, I believe.

Thanks for your input kerouac & Michael, that's good to know.
 I still believe that the generous american tipping habit is a good thing especially when the server speak our language. That's a higher level of service that we receive and tip for. How many french servers would bother to learn/speak Flemish, German, Spanish, Chinese or Arabic to provide a better service for them.

I spent a couple summers in Switzerland as a student and hardly ever tipped beyond a franc back then since I went out with the locals to simpler restaurants/cafes and cheap bars.  In recent times, however, those very same swiss acquaintances all tipped well when we went out to nice restaurants in Switzerland. They told me tipping is still not required but they do tip 5-10% in better restaurants that provides better service. I am surprised that it doesn't apply in France, seriously?

In the boondocks an hour from Toulouse, we leave small change in cafés and bars (bill is 8.20€, leave the .80).

Most of the restaurants we go to on a regular basis are family-owned and operated. We would never tip the owners but some of the larger places have a bowl or box by the cash register for tips for the staff. We leave 2-3 euros on a 40-euro bill, for example.

Interesting local custom new to us, at even the larger "tablecloth" places, the bill isn't brought to the table, you go up to the counter or bar to pay.

We go to one place 3-4 times a month, left 25 euros in the bowl at the New Year.

Dax "I still believe that the generous american tipping habit is a good thing especially when the server speak our language. That's a higher level of service that we receive and tip for. How many french servers would bother to learn/speak Flemish, German, Spanish, Chinese or Arabic to provide a better service for them."

No. Dax no. please don't force your cultural standards on other cultures. :-)

If we make this into a tipping thread it will go and on and never touch the far more interesting issue of butter knives. Still no one has answered by question about eating mussels in cream curry sauce.

Reminds me of Madame Butterfly.

Véronique, if
- I were not married;
- you were not married;
- I were some years younger
I'd be on the next available plane to Paris to propose to you.

FMT is one lucky guy.

<i> I still believe that the generous american tipping habit is a good thing especially when the server speak our language.</i>

And the foreign tourist in the States should follow his own custom and not tip?

This is a perpetual confusion for me as I always rely on Fodorites, but whenever I ask people I know who live in Europe they always said waiters absolutely expect tips and they would never see you negatively if you tip better, they appreciate it! I remember some german fodorites saying the same thing.

After reading previous posts today, I felt compelled to call my swiss acquaintance and his french wife (both scientists) who live near Geneva how much they tip in restaurants and he told me around 10% especially in France where the salary is so low, many people without education hold a second job to survive ( that's why they don't want longer work hours) he said have pity on them, many count on tips to survive even with the 13 month salary. It's tough to survive on their low salary.

I also called my older sister who lives near Lucerne for 31 years how much exactly she and her swiss husband tip, she said 15% which should really be 10% but her husband is always too generous towards people. She agreed that the waiters in France and Italy earn very little compare to Switzerland many can't afford their own apartments and have to share, so those guys absolutely appreciate good tips. However she said there are people who barely tip anything at all. I reminded her how, as a student used to brag that no tipping is necessary in Switzerland, she said yes that was when they themselves were living on a tight budget, but if we can travel and afford the nice restaurants, we really should tip the waiters, though it is up to our good heart.

<<FMT is one lucky guy.>>

Hey Padraig. Thanks for the nice compliment. Of course, you could also say that Mrs. FMT is one lucky gal. ;)

Meanwhile "mussels in cream curry"? anyone?

<i>many people without education hold a second job to survive</i>

Saying such a thing is proof of total ignorance. I think your Swiss sister is totally disconnected from reality, DAX, because my Swiss friends do not tip in Switzerland, France or any other non tipping country. And yes, they do earn more money. So what? Life in Switzerland is extremely expensive.

bilboburgler: http://www.leon-de-bruxelles.fr/la-c...ger-les-moules
I use the first method using the shells as tongs. It is supposed to be messy, that's why they bring hand wipes.
Padraig,
FMT better behave or I could accept your proposal! How about a table manner duel between the two of you? :-D
Véronique

Wow, so much worry and rules...it's a wonder anyone ever eats anything at all. We just try to be polite and not offend anyone, but I don't think about any of this...i just sit down, order and eat. I would go crazy trying to sort out all the rules. I am Southern and what I understand about manners is that they are intended to make others comfortable, not uncomfortable.

This is entertaining to read.

George Orwell, in "Down and Out in Paris and London", claimed that waiters at that stage relied on tips to survive - in fact they were usually much better than the wages, and there was a whole scale of payments that waiters then passed to other restaurant staff.

denisea - You and I would get along just fine at the dinner table. :)

<i>George Orwell, in "Down and Out in Paris and London", claimed that waiters at that stage relied on tips to survive </i>

That was a completely different era--1920's and 1930's. Tipping also existed in the 1960's, but it was being phased out, with a lot of restaurants indicating that <i>le service est compris</i>; and that is now universal.

On the other hand, the waiter in a Budapest restaurant was quite up front, almost to the point of being rude, about the fact that service was not included with the price of the meal. I accept the idea that Swiss tipping norms are not the same as in France.

Awesome, FMT!

Kerouac, you misread/misquoted:

It was the french & swiss scientist couple who talked about second jobs in France. The french wife told me her cousin repair houses near Lyon on his day off as a second job to help support his family on his low salary. In what way is that total ignorance? If anything this "ignorant" couple shows a smart financial strategy to work in Geneva but live in a mansion across the border buying cheaper gas & groceries in France.

My sister readily admits that they tip generously but if you know how hard they work to earn, you would not label her disconnected from reality, she knows the value of money all too well, but she's very compassionate and always helpful towards others individually.

I may only know weird people, but all the French I have met (from different "classes") on business or private occasions for any meal did not make 1 percent of all the fuss that I find mentioned here. Especially when it was a private occasion it was always very entertaining and relaxed - and a pleasure foodwise anyway.

IMO, it's a bit like making a trip to Europe sound like some massively complicated endeavour, which you can only survive if you study 6 months in advance, comply with a myriad of written and unwritten rules, and can brag about afterwards that you survived it.


Just as food for thought:

How many Europeans do you see switching to the US manner to cut first, and then just use fork??
How many would even waste one single thought on this matter before going on holiday to the US??

Or is this obsession on whether or not to eat with knife and fork when in Europe another item on the silly "How to blend in" or "How not to be a tourist" list?

<IMO, it's a bit like making a trip to Europe sound like some massively complicated endeavour, which you can only survive if you study 6 months in advance ...>

Thank heavens! I'll be in Paris in six days and was afraid I'd have to order all my food "to go," sneak it into my hotel room, close the curtains, and eat in the dark, lest anyone be privy to my ignorance. Ohh ... but of course, eating in the hotel room is unacceptable, as well. AGGHHH.

This thread is just a discussion of different manners and customs, no one actually thinks that everything is some law do they? I wouldn't worry about doing or not doing anything said here, except keeping your mouth shut when chewing!!!

I am surprised that some are taking it so serioiusly.

justineparis wrote: "This thread is just a discussion of different manners and customs..."

It's more than that: I'm trying to get it on with Véronique without her husband noticing.

LOL

Padraig, I think you fluffed it :-)

FMT2, yes she used the tongs method ( spent my summer holidays in Barfleur as a child) but garlic and white wine does not stain like curry sauce.

Are you kidding? I don't feel guilty not tipping American-size tips in France, precisely because it isn't French custom. I'd look ridiculous if I did that. One tips according to LOCAL custom, not what one does at home.>

exactly - most French - I'd say just about all French I know never tip because the Service Charge is included in the meal price - so tipping is like paying twice for service.

Actually I understood that it was customary to leave a few small coins like you may get in change if paying with cash but when I try doing this with my in-laws they invariably say no - no reason to do that - not sure they are typical but... only naive Americans leave big tips and waiters yes may work folks for that at times!

I confirm that my French friends leave nothing on the table after receiving the change unless it is no more than 0.40€. If you get a 50 centime coin, you take it with you.

I see you're all finally beginning to understand French table manners: just like this thread by the end of French meals, conversations usually revolve around sex and wife swapping :-D
Now to perfect your French table skills, you all need to learn some "chansons paillardes". I'll let you google that...

Oh, your FMT1 wants a swap, does he?

Interesting thread. My question was about using your knife to spread food on the back of fork. When you can use your knife to assist food to your fork in the up right position.

I meant to describe was spreading food onto the back of your fork vs. using the prongs to pick up the food. Oh well.

I still don't know what you're asking traveller111, but thanks for reviving this amusing thread.

Takes me back about 10 years, when DH and I were invited to dinner at the home of a family friend in Rome. We're Australian, there were several other guests.

The first course was prawns, quite small and not peeled.

Thank God we waited for the hostess to be seated. Prawns were delivered by serving spoon, DH and I dived in, peeling by hand. I was mortified to see every other guest peeling these small prawns with a knife and fork. That story has been great dinner party fodder over the years.

Now, how about we get onto the correct Indian way to use your fork and spoon ?

until you have seen a un-peeled banana eaten by a very attractive psychiatrist using a knife and fork you have not lived

This thread is quintessential Fodor's: OBSESSED.

I can't imagine a life where I allow anyone's food rules to get in the way of my eating pleasure. Of course, personal enjoyment must never be an excuse for bad table manners. Every professional chef I know (and several are French and famous) uses a great piece of bread to savor the last drops of <i>jus</i>.

Artisan butter, bread, and homemade marmalade in France? Couldn't imagine a day in France without all three.

One of my favorite NYC breakfasts starts with a tasty brew of freshly roasted Brooklyn Filter Blend beans from Toby's Estate to wash down a large slice of toasted Country Sourdough from Pain D'Avignon, which is smothered with Vermont Creamery Butter, and slathered with a dollop of Pineapple Preserves Marmalade from Stroble Farms. Sometimes my craving for these glorious delights is so bad, I create and enjoy the same meal for lunch. Pure heaven.

I couldn't care less what people think if I ask for butter to put on that glorious bread.

At our weekly family dinner at mi-mere's house I was at times upbraided quite emphatically about certain ways to eat - I remember her say, in French, we he's in France now...

some folks - maybe older ones - do take table etiquette seriously.

I am left handed so this is how I have eaten all my life except not tines down. This was a great video of how to eat properly with that fork and knife.
http://experiencelife.com/video/how-...ork-and-knife/

French glorious bread..... well it exists but not easy to find