"But this is at home, isn't it? I don't think I have ever seen anyone drinking coffee from a bol in public."

Le Pain Quotidien serves breakfast coffee in bowls.

Having lived in Paris, I don't see any issue with the fork/knife question. I've also only really experienced the mopping up with bread outside of Paris--some French people prefer a sauce spoon. The one aspect of table manners that I have noticed is that, in France, it can be considered rude to keep your hands under the table during a meal. Most French people I've encountered prefer to keep the forearms on the table. Or, as one French person put it, "We always wonder what the Americans are doing with their hands under the table."

But this is at home, isn't it? I don't think I have ever seen anyone drinking coffee from a bol in public>

Yes that is my experience as well and always with the coffee, served at the end of our meals mi-mere would also always have some kind of packaged cookies -usually mass brand square cookies, which were at times way past the use by date.

I have never seen coffee bowls in a restaurant or café, but I would not deny that they must certainly exist in a few places -- if only to be "original." It's a shame because I would love a café au lait to be served in a bowl. It would be a bit silly for an espresso, however.

Only place I can think of is a youth hostel in Dijon--in 1972!

I drink my cafe au lait from a bowl when home but have ordered in France a few times and and was served in a bowl and usually at the B&Bs I've been given my au lait in a bowl.
The old bowls are very expensive. At one time I collected them but when my finances took a downhill, I sold them.

But the new bowls are very cheap -- Monoprix is full of them for about 2 euros and any <i>bazaar</i> store in Paris sells them for 1 euro.

Yes, I can imagine that a <i>gite rural</i> would use bowls at breakfast.

Forearms on the table, but <i>never</i> elbows.

Oh, hooey! Everybody I know in Paris puts their arms, elbows and hands anywhere they want. What really counts is what their feet and thighs are doing under the table. :-)

I haven't followed this whole thread, but I just wanted to share a photograph of...

BUTTER

http://ldnatm.blogspot.com/2013/02/butter.html

I snapped this photo during my lunch at Les Ambassadeurs at the Crillon Hotel in 2008.

Knowing this is Fodor's, I'm sure that the thread will now be replete with theories that

(1) they brought me butter because I was foreign
(2) they brought butter because it had two Michelin stars (not sure what the current rating is)
(3) I asked for the butter but conveniently forgot

And who knows what else.

For the record, I rarely use butter, and that's why I notice it, especially when it's presented beautifully. Some restaurants even give you different kinds of butter.

Butter is not some strange American custom, I dare say.

Another theory

(4) I photoshopped the photograph with butter from an American restaurant.

:)

It's not that butter isn't some strange American custom. It's perfectly normal for many countries in Europe to serve butter with bread. Just not so much France, at breakfast, IME. I would imagine the Crillon serves so many people from all over the world, they serve butter because many of their international clients expect it.

At a "normal" resto in the Dordogne or Provence or Normandie or otherwise "out in the provinces," it would be unusual to be served butter for lunch or dinner, though you would always get bread.

Ok, when butter came up initially, that question had nothing to do with breakfast. So let's get this straight.

I knew some version of the various reasons I'd offered would come up, and you've conflated #1 and #2. While we're at it, I also forgot to add a preemptive #5 -- I took the photo at an American restaurant but forgot and thought it was Les Ambassadeurs. :)

Seriously, what goes on in this forum is just a bit much. But I'll grant you that your response is not as ridiculous as, say, "I've never seen anyone served butter with the bread at a restaurant so it wouldn't even be an option unless you asked."

Blooming heck! What you all do at home is your business! However, good table manners are part of fine dining etiquette and make eating out for those round about you a pleasant experience.
So here's the European normal table manners etiquette:
cutlery in the right hands,
hands above the table but no elbows,
eating with one's mouth closed and no talking while eating (a pet hate),
breaking bread into pieces to mop up sauces at meals other than breakfast,
serve oldest woman first,
try eat everything you are served, unless the portion is too large, and never say you don't like food unl
children must engage with adults and behave well at table or parents should remove them from the table (my father would take my son for a walk in between courses and I always had drawing materials, plastic animals and small books to keep him entertained but still engaged)
No electronic games or telephones during mealtimes.
No eating before grace is said and until the person serving (at home) has sat down to eat.
I think that's the lot!

<<No eating before grace is said...>>

Are you freaking kidding? Grace? I've been to Europe probably 150 times, owned a house there for 20 years, have countless European friends and acquaintances in whose houses I've had meals, hosted innumerable meals at my own home there, and never once been exposed to a "saying grace moment." What about European Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and so forth, for whom grace isn't even really a concept?

Sorry, but what a conceptually narrow-minded idea. Really mind-boggling. Can't we all just agree to have our morning café crème in a bowl?

Smodaig must know only real <i>dévots</i> in France.

Well, finally a moment of grace in this thread! ;-)

How do plastic toys, coloring books etc keep child more engaged with other people, then a small muted hand held electronic game,( unless you mean an adult has to interact with child playing with said items and there fore not able to be free to chat to other adults) , in fact its a bit hard on staff at restaurant to serve food if your child has all his toys and coloring stuff set up .. I think you are just old and prejudiced against something more modern. I personally do not think a child over 10 needs anything to "keep them busy" except at a very long ( more then two hours) meal. I also don't think it would be appropriate or fair to expect a 6-10 yr old to sit for more then 2 hours, really even more then 1.5 hours. I find it hard to believe any child 5 or under would be expected to sit at a long formal meal and are best being fed in bistros and cafes where meal times are under an hour. Many thats my old fashioned part.

I find at some dinner parties the conversations after folks have a bit of wine are not appropriate for children to hear, especially very young children . I have witnessed adults laughing over risque officeneighborhood gossip( whos cheating on their wife, and which receptionist wears low cut tops etc) with young kids at table. I don't think people mean to , but I just think after 2 glasses of wine many peoples "filters" come off and its not always cool for kids to be included.

I am 100% French and really:
- grace is not said in France except maybe in the most conservative families (less than 1% of the population)
- butter is never served with bread before a meal at regular restaurants (except Michelin starred restaurants but I have never eaten at one so I can only base this assumption on other people's testimonials). Butter is served with certain dishes (assiette de charcuterie, seafood platters, etc) and only as part of these dishes (and of course butter is a major component of French breakfasts).
- while table manners differ from country to country, their strict observance has more to do with social class than nationality. It seems to me that some posters on this thread must be dining only with nobility, diplomats or more generally speaking with the upper crust, who, let's not forget, represent a minority of the population.
Véronique

I was talking about the difference between eating at home (where things are more relaxed) and eating in company/out. Maybe it's a class thing? Or a UK thing? But my experience of eating in the UK and in Europe is as described. I'd never considered it before, and wouldn't dream of allowing my child to eat sloppily and be inconsiderate to other diners - they have paid to eat too.
If you are away with kids, it is a family holiday and the kids have as much right to be there, but they need entertained/exercised between courses if they are slow in coming, and of course you need adults to interact - I was thinking of under 6s. Kids really shouldn't go to dinner parties, but long family lunches allow families to chat and bond, especially if you have a hectic schedule of after-school activities during term-time. Electronc gadgets are fine for long journeys, but make kids disengage and they might as well be in their room, so only if the child is to be seen and not heard in adult company. I agree that 10+ should be able to enjoy adult company, but the adults need to be mindful of who is there.
As far as adults who have imbibed a bit much, you choose your company! Saying that my uncle is an alcoholic and is outrageous in adult company, but I never remember him being risqué when we were kids - it probably just went over our heads! But we only saw him once a year!
Longer meals are the norm in France, Spain and Italy and families and friends of all ages enjoy them - indeed many families enjoy extended meals on Saturday evenings and Sunday lunches in the UK. My child, nephews and nieces all enjoy sitting together with the adults and chat animatedly and eat what's put in front of them and enjoy the time together and they are aged 4-13.
With many families eating ready meals/TV dinners, and take away foods in front of the box - away from the dining table, or separately at different times and mum preparing different meals for faddy children, it's not surprising that some kids & adults don't know to behave at table.

'No eating until the person serving (at home) has sat down to eat.' - this part is right.

I agree with nona1, people should wait till host sits, and even at home at casual meals that rule stands.

Absolutely, it seems such basic courtesy, nothing to do with any cultural table manners.

As I said earlier table RULES can depend on country and social class but in France table MANNERS transcend any class in that anyone that wasn't raised by wolves will know how to behave respectfully of others: waiting for the person serving to sit down before eating, not speaking with your mouth full, not toying with your cell phone, cutting the cheese so as not to leave only the rind to other people, etc, do these really need to be stated in writing, is is not just common sense / basic politeness? I am from a working class / lower middle-class background and have been friends (not just acquaintances) with people ranging from what some would call "white trash", "rednecks", to royal princesses and everything in between and we have all been taught the same basics.

Some major social differences in France are that in high social circles such as nobility:
- dessert is only eaten with a fork (even for ice-cream) and using a spoon is a clear sign that you are a commoner. For the rest of the population, which is the vast majority, people use a dessert spoon and most restaurants, even high end ones, will bring a spoon rather than a fork.
- a knife should never be used to push food against the fork, only bread is allowed (whereas using the knife seems to be good manners in the UK). In other social circles, there is no rule but using bread is more common anyway.
- mopping sauce with bread is acceptable only if using the fork. For anyone else, using your hands is common and perfectly acceptable.
- one of my noble friends told me that when she was a teenager she wanted to help and served wine to guests. Her uncle said nothing but asked her to follow her into the kitchen. There he violently slapped her in the face to teach her that a lady is never to touch a bottle of alcohol! Now that is just one particular anecdote and I don't know if this rule is observed by most nobles attached to tradition or if that Marquis was a little extreme...

Of course, nobles know how to adapt and frequently break their rules when they are in more casual settings or restaurants but instinctively abide by them when among themselves in more formal circumstances.


The main cultural differences between France and the US or UK are that in France:
- you place the fork face down
- your hands should be on the table, not on your lap and elbows should never rest on the table (this is taught in any family but whether it is enforced at home will depend on the family. Many people know it is not done in public but will find it acceptable at home or in casual settings, while other families will not accept it even at home)
- no bread is to be eaten before a meal, regardless of social background: in high society it is a definite no no, in lower circles it just comes down to grandma's good old warning about not ruining your appetite before a meal. So the fact that bread and butter are served in high end Michelin starred restaurants seems to indicate that they indeed cater to an international clientèle.

Despite the original post, there is NO RULE whatsoever about using both knife and fork rather than the fork alone, etc. In high circles, it is only stated that if a knife is not needed the fork should be held in the right hand and if a knife is needed then the knife is held in the right hand and the fork in the left hand. There is absolutely no obligation to keep a knife if your hands if there is nothing to cut on the plate.
Bread pieces should be torn by hand, never cut with a knife. If bread such as a baguette needs to be cut, it is cut in the kitchen before being presented on the table in a basket.

All that being said, one of the most basic rules in politeness is to make others feel comfortable. Therefore if someone were to use the wrong glass or wrong fork and were chastised for their ignorance, the only rude person would be the one chastising them. Another thing is if you do something that you are not comfortable with, you will look awkward and that is worse than any supposed faux-pas you could make. For instance, the fork in the bread to mop sauce looks so ridiculous TO ME that if I were in a setting where it wasn't acceptable to mop the bread with my hands I would rather not mop at all than use a fork.
Véronique

Your noble friend's noble uncle needs his head examined, after an equally violent slap in the face.

Just goes to show domestic violence is not exclusive to the "lower classes."

"dessert is only eaten with a fork (even for ice-cream) and using a spoon is a clear sign that you are a commoner."

Depends on the dessert......try eating crème brûlée or île flottante with a fork !
I've neverr seen or heard of ice-cream being eaten with a fork.
There are special spoons for it and they are called "cuillères à glace".

Cathinjoetown,

Yep, seems like hitting a woman was more acceptable to him than a woman holding a bottle of wine. Different values... Actually he was her great uncle and was an old man then and is probably dead now.

Pvoyageuse,

The spoon used for liquidy desserts like île flottante is called 'cuillère à entremet' apparently in that particular social circle and should only be used for what cannot be eaten with the fork. And using a 'cuillère à glace' would forever ban you from being re-invited :) I have never seen ice-cream being eaten with a fork either but I don't belong to nobility.

It took me at least a decade to feel comfortable eating with only one fork and switching it to my right hand, which is now second nature now since I live in the states long enough. This may be a good thread to ask WHAT ARE PROPER AMERICAN TABLE MANNERS if anyone REALLY knows since all these years I have been winging it.

Arm and elbows:
Growing up abroad I was annoyingly reminded and harassed to keep them as close as possible to myself, to avoid laying elbows on the table, and to never lift them from the plate except to put food in my mouth. It was strictly enforced and ingrained in me. Hand gesture while talking at the dinner table especially without putting the silverware down is an abominable crime in my family. Do all these still apply in proper American table manners? I've been hammering these to our kids all their lives but sometimes wonder if I'm even teaching them the right things.

Finishing:
Do you tip the soup bowl only towards yourself or away or sideways when finishing the last few spoonfuls?
Are we supposed to leave the silverware upward or downward when we're done? Does crossing them mean I'm not finished (do not remove yet, still hungry)? I can never figure this out, everyone has their own habit without any purpose/message. My instinct in the US has been to follow what others are doing around me, so sometimes I leave them up or down or crossed and tip the bowl according to what others are doing, that's what I told my kids to do on the basis of being courteous in other people's houses.

Anybody knows?

Typo: " never lift them from the plate" I mean never lift the silverware from the plate

It's not just France and Britain who consider it rude not to use knife and fork in tandem, it's the same in Australia and New Zealand and in fact most of the western world. A friend and I (from New Zealand) were backpacking in the US a few years ago. We decided to take our evening meal at a truckstop near Terre Haute, Indiana. As we sat eating our meal the lady who ran the place walked past our table, stopped and said in a loud voice, "Oh, my stars, ain't he dainty." I quizzed her on this and she pointed to the knife and fork in my hand and said, "heck, nobody uses a knife around here they just jam the food in their mouths with their hands, sometimes they'll lose a finger in the process."

I was invited to dinner tonight but preferred to decline due to the possiblity of trauma induced by this thread, so I can certainly understand the jitters of visitors.

And yet I automatically ignore a lot of the rules -- but having them put back in one's mind is detrimental to one's pleasure.

Really I think table manners (being courteous and respectful) are so much more important than table rules (where and how to place the fork and so on). Honestly I couldn't care less what foreign or other French guests could do with their silverware at my dinner table, or if they keep their hand on their lap or on the table, I don't even pay attention.

What matters to me when I have guests over is that they enjoy the food, the company and the time spent together. They can bring their German, Italian, US, New Zealand, British or Australian ways to my French table, I don't care and probably won't even notice. And when I am abroad I never worry about my ways being different as long as I am aware of major cultural taboos. I was only made aware of my being different once when I was 13 staying with an English family: I was struggling to grab peas with my fork since there was no bread to help and they suggested I use a knife to push the food (which is not done in France). But I felt they were teaching me English ways to be helpful, not to reprimand me. I now use my knife to push the food to the fork in France even if it is not supposed to be done and I have never seen anyone looking shocked either. If anyone was looking at how I use my knife and fork then they would be the rude ones. You can tell when people are well-mannered or not and it has nothing to do with these cultural codes. Some eat neatly with their (clean) hands, others eat and behave like pigs with fine silverware.

While I can't speak for every French person, it seems to me that we French people are more into manners than rules. The one thing I think most French people will find shocking is seeing fine food not being appreciated for what it is: bringing a nice bottle of champagne and seeing it get mixed with orange juice or people spreading a high quality foie gras flat on the bread as if it was pâté, etc. So the only thing foreigners need to be aware of is how important good quality food and ingredients are to us, and stop worrying about where and how to put your knife and fork on the plate.

I love knowing about rules because there is always interesting history behind them but it doesn't mean each and every one of them needs to be observed, especially when the reason behind it no longer exists.

Haha! Was crossposting with kerouac and I see we reach the same conclusion :-D It is truly a misunderstanding of French culture to not realize that what matters most here is appreciation of the meal, not what you do with your hands and cutlery.

Our basic conclusion would be: as you are polite according to your own customs, the vast majority of the French will be totally indulgent no matter what "mistakes" you make.

However, if you find yourself in some sort of rigid aristocratic meal, you might find yourself in deep trouble. While a true aristocrat will indulge your 'outlandish' customs due to proper upbringing, a wannabe aristocrat could have a ridiculous reaction to things that do not conform to the rules that they think they have learned.

Veronique,

"one of my noble friends told me that when she was a teenager she wanted to help and served wine to guests. Her uncle said nothing but asked her to follow her into the kitchen. There he violently slapped her in the face to teach her that a lady is never to touch a bottle of alcohol! Now that is just one particular anecdote and I don't know if this rule is observed by most nobles attached to tradition or if that Marquis was a little extreme..."

This is a wonderful example to show us that "manners" and customs are sometimes not worth preserving or observing!

I would have thought that such barbaric behaviour would never have been acceptable, but has often been overlooked or excused if the perpetrator was sufficiently rich or powerful that it could be seen as some kind of archaic eccentricity rather than what it is - inexcusable and completely unjustifiable violence against someone not in a position to fightback.

As privileged travellers, beyond the niceties of table manners that we have been arguing about, WE also need to be mindful of other behaviours we observe when we travel and either speak-up at the time (often difficult and sometimes dangerous), or at least make sure that when we post our trip reports or tell others, that we include this information.

We all have a responsibility to bear witness (morally, ethically and completely detached from any religion one may or may not follow) - such dark behaviours will only change when subjected to the ongoing glare of a bright light!

Now I'll hop off my soapbox - you've probably guessed that I'm not a fan of cultural relativism or the barbaric exploitation of those no in a position to fightback!

Rob

I learn such amazing things from these forums! Coffee bowls, never heard of them but I looked them up and had seen them before. I would have assumed they were for condiments, etc., as a matter of fact I think I have white ones from Ikea that I use for salsa, etc. Too funny.

Hey Monica, come to my house with your coffee bowls and we'll have a nacho party! :)

I agree French table manners only matter if you are trying to impress some important French host like an in law or to land a business deal.

Most tourists don't have to worry about it since they mostly eat in restaurants. I think most french waiters learn to forgive our faux pas gracefully since Americans have the best table custom in the world - a Big Fat Tip of 18-20% - which is what the typical french tourists are lacking when they come to the states. Even if we try to be cheap we would feel terribly guilty about tipping less than 10% in France. My nephew who works in a Michelin star restaurant in San Francisco complains about finicky french guests who are ignorant about proper tipping.

Are you kidding? I don't feel guilty not tipping American-size tips in France, precisely because it isn't French custom. I'd look ridiculous if I did that. One tips according to LOCAL custom, not what one does at home.

Yes, but you practically live in France, know the local customs very well and presumably speak good painless French.The rest of us may not be like you so the French waiters have to put up with our mindless questions, request for butter for our bread, horseradish with our steak, ice cubes and ketchup...so it is only right that we should tip them more.

One example I can never forget was sitting next to a finicky couple who asked for extra this and that and charmingly mentioned to the french waiter that they would give him a big tip if they can have their steak with horseradish like at home instead of butter and ice cubes for their drinks. The waiter even brought ketchup for their fries! We chatted a lot throughout dinner and at the end they asked me if they should just leave some change as they heard people don't have to tip. I felt bad for the waiter so I reminded them of the fact that they already promised the waiter a big tip.

I should ask you now St Cirq, how much do you tip then? Rounding the bill to the next bill? 5% or 7% or depends on how fancy the restaurant is?