French nationality
 

Hi, everyone. I'm new here, but I thought I would jump right in, since I didn't see my question already asked.

I am 61 (almost 62 -- in July), a U.S. citizen (born here), and living on a fixed income. I am seriously thinking about moving to France, and have a question about French nationality through my mother, who was born in France. My understanding is that I have French nationality automatically through my mother. BUT: There is a catch (of course!). My mother was *born* in France, but she came to the U.S. in 1942, with her father and brother, to escape the Nazis. She met my father, who was born in The Netherlands and came to the U.S. for the same reason, in New York City. I am almost certain that they both were naturalized as Americans soon after WWII ended, but what I don't know is if my mother also gave up her French citizenship. If she did, does that make me ineligible to automatically be a French citizen through her?

It may or may not be relevant to my question, but I should also mention that I don't know the exact year they became U.S. citizens. I'm pretty sure it was before I was born (in 1950), but if it was after, would that change anything? In other words, would the fact (if it were a fact) that my mother was a French citizen at the time I was born guarantee me French citizenship? Also, I don't know what U.S. immigration law was at that time. In gaining their U.S. citizenship, would my parents have had to renounce their nationalities of birth? And would *that* make a difference to my situation, now (the fact, if it were a fact, that they had no choice but to renounce, IF they were to become American citizens)?

I also want to add that I absolutely do NOT expect answers to all these questions in and of themselves. In other words, I don't expect anyone here to tell me what U.S. immigration law was in the late 1940s. What I'm looking for here is simply information on how any of these scenarios would affect my right to French citizenship. And I fully recognize even THAT is likely a question most people would not have the answer to. I post this only in the hope that if someone does know, or have any part of the information I need, they will see this and hopefully share what they know with me.

Much obliged for any help you guys can offer me.

Kathy K.

French nationality through parentage (jus sanguinis) must be established by the time the child (you) is 18 years old.

Separately from your questions about French nationality, the questions about your parents can all be answered by research on Ancestry.com, I am pretty sure. When and how they came to the U.S. and when they became citizens would be interesting just to know.

StCirq: Yep, that's what I was afraid of, lol. Oh well, just gotta find another way.

Cynthia: Great idea -- I actually have done some research on Ancestry.com, but I wasn't willing to pay $35/month to retain access to all those features after my trial membership ended. :-)

Look into Dutch nationality, too. It is the EU. Doesn't matter which EU nationality you hold in order to live in France. Who knows, perhaps you'd even
prefer to live in Holland !

You are indeed not entitled to French citizenship but since you are close to retirement age nothing can stop you from retiring in France as long as you can prove that you have the means to support yourself in France, have your own health insurance and won't be working or looking for work. You would have to apply for a long stay visa.

You don't qualify for Dutch citizenship either I'm afraid.

I don't know what the requirements are, but you might look into a student visa that would enable you to stay beyond the usual 90 days - that is, assuming you wouldn't mind being a student again. I plan to retire in France, and my SO and I are periodically jumping through hoops to figure out how he can be there with me without having to leave every 90 days. If I get any brilliant ideas, I'll pass them on.

I do not know the specifics however if you have your Mother's birth certificate you can obtain a second passport. Not that it would entitle you to citizenship however it would permit you to conduct business in France, open a bank account and it would entitle you to stay in France longer than the 90 days.
Other than obtaining the second passport you can apply for a visa and it does not have to be a student visa. Then when in France you need to apply for a Carte de Sejour and prove you have a certain income. Here are 2 websites where you can find specific information on the visa application process and other information on living in France.
http://www.consulfrance-washington.o...php?article401
http://www.transitionsabroad.com/lis...ebsites_france

http://www.adrianleeds.com/home/consultation-services

Adrian Leeds has a newsletter called parlor paris. She may be able to give you more specifics on obtaining a second passport. Her email address is a the bottom of the link above.

My mother had the excellent idea to register my birth at the French consulate when I was born -- so I had no trouble at all getting all of my French papers when I wanted them.

Any chance that you were registered at the French or Dutch consulate at birth?

"Any chance that you were registered at the French or Dutch consulate at birth?"

No, none whatsoever, I'm afraid. I'll look into locating my mother's birth certificate. I'm not sure if it would be on record here, or just in France.

Re the Dutch citizenship idea, I had actually already called the Dutch consulate on that some months ago, and found out then that their "right of blood" (gruesome image, but I guess that's the term) also has to be exercised before (or by) age 18.

I really want to thank all of you for all these answers. Whether they work or not, I am so grateful for so much advice and suggestions when I am brand new here.

You guys are really nice. :-)

One more thing I wanted to say, in response specifically to those here who suggested that to retire in France I only need to get a long stay visa (or a student visa), prove I have enough income to support myself, and that I have health insurance. The only one of those that I am worried about is the health insurance. I'm on Medicare (even though I'm only 61, because I qualified for Social Security Disability), and as I found out, although my SSD checks can be sent anywhere in the world (with a few exceptions), my Medicare is not transferable. I can't use it outside of the United States. And since I can't afford what health insurance costs in the United States, I'm not sure how I would manage that one. Any ideas?

This is of course an ever-increasing issue in countries like France which are trying to decrease expenses in health care. I suspect that if you haven't worked anywhere in the European Union, you are stuck with a private plan from a company like BUPA. The health care restrictions were tightened further a few years ago, and even Europeans resident in France who aren't working (and therefore contributing) have to have a private plan for 5 years before applying to join,and then pay based on income. So you would first have to be resident in France.

Regarding health insurance even a US-based private plan will be cheaper to get you coverage in France than it would for coverage in the US since the health care costs are so much lower here. Google 'retire in France US citizen' and 'international health insurance'.

This 2-year-old article may give you some direction, especially paragraph 5: http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articl...nce-54450.aspx

But note that you must be resident in France - i.e paying taxes in France.

<<You are indeed not entitled to French citizenship but since you are close to retirement age nothing can stop you from retiring in France as long as you can prove that you have the means to support yourself in France, have your own health insurance and won't be working or looking for work. You would have to apply for a long stay visa.>>

Hi, FMT. What if your work consists of working on your computer and online for U.S. and international development customers (and paying the requisite U.S.taxes on that income, of course) - no work for a French company, no "going to work," no physical presence anywhere for a French entity. ??

My parents retired to France as American citizens. If my mother had known that she was still a valid French citizen, I'm sure it would have been much simpler. They went through all of the visa formalities, provided the necessary financial proof, had their medical visit, etc. Naturally, as older people, health care was a concern, but my father was retired military and since they were going to be living the east of France, they knew they had rapid access to the military hospitals on the American bases of Germany if necessary. For "standard" medical treatment, they knew they could easily afford French rates and on top of that, my French grandmother's doctor took care of all of their medical needs and added any necessary prescriptions on my grandmother's account. This may not be ultra ethical, but it is very common in France for members of the same family or even close friends. I have known many expats to get a free ride on a French citizen's social security benefits. At the same time, it is all for the best because it is in everybody's interest for everybody in France to remain as healthy as possible. Anybody in need of health care will be treated anyway in France whether they can pay for it or not, even the homeless, but it is always better for people to be treated for their condition before they need to go to a hospital.

If you move to France, I'm not saying that you need to bend the rules on such things, but as you learn the ropes, you discover that there are hundreds of ways to reduce expenses in completely legal ways. And with out new kinder and gentler government, you might even qualify for naturalization faster than you think.

@kerouac, why did your mother not know whether she was still a valid French citizen? It seems that she was very prudent, registering you with the French consulate as a newborn.

Hi StCirq,

This is actually FMT2 writing = FMT's wife :) If the US citizen has a US income it's great. Because in order to get a long stay visa you need to prove you can support yourself financially and won't cost France a dime.

Carlux,

If the OP gets a long stay visa, she then becomes a resident. But since she won't be allowed to work in France she will not be entitled to French social security/health insurance. She will live legally in France but will continue to pay taxes in the US and will have to buy her own private health insurance, which will cover her health care in France. No need to pay taxes in France to reside there but as a result you receive nothing from the state and must prove you won't be a burden to the French system.

The long stay visa is a hassle to file for in that it requires a lot of paperwork but apart from that it is easy to get for anyone who can prove they have sufficient funding and assets:
http://www.consulfrance-washington.o...php?article401

Véronique

Thanks, V.

Sounds like this will be a bit complicated. I have an Irish passport, so I assume I can just get a carte de séjour and settle in? I wouldn't have French income, at least not at the start. I'd keep getting income from my current sources in the USA (and Canada and occasionally elsewhere, but for the time being, not France). I'd pay U.S. taxes. I would qualify for French health insurance (at presumably a lower rate than the God-awful amount I pay here) - is that right?

SO would apply for a long-term visa, get a carte de séjour, continue HIS work with his U.S. clients, which the French would like because he could show he could support himself. We'd also together be able to show that we owned property (a house) in France, which I assume would be to our benefit.

Am I getting this at least partly right?

BTW, I AM researching the French laws through the consulate, etc. It's just sometimes simpler to absorb it through people on the ground who've done it.

Apart from that, we'd have other financial resources to show them we can support ourselves, too.

Thanks to all.

My understanding of the system here - having been almost thrown out when the changes were made, is that you have to work/have worked here. So, even Europeans who have worked, for instance in Britain, but come here before retirement age, can not join the system for 5 years. Then they should be resident, with indication that they pay taxes here, so that payment is based on their taxable income.

If you have retired here from another European country, then there is a system of transfer payments so that you are covered, and your home country picks up the cost. But for non-Europeans this doesn't apply.

There is a lot of information on this in various expat site, mostly aimed at Brits, but some are useful in generally explaining the system.

There are many private companies now offering insurance to 'etrangers.'

I was lucky enough to have worked in neighbourhood schools, and contributed to the system, and so qualify now as a retired person.

Perhaps the new 'kinder gentler' government may change the system, but since it is heavily in debt, I wouldn't count on it, My suspicion is that any changes would be for French residents.

'How to get into the system'
http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-healt...e.asp?ID=18851

StCirq,

As a US national coming to France without French employment you are not entitled to French health insurance, you would have to buy your own.

As an Irish citizen however things could be different but I know nothing about the process for EU nationals to move to a member state so I cannot help with that unfortunately.

Must go now to run an errand but if I find out more I will let you know. I agree with Carlux to check all the expat blogs and sites aimed at UK and Irish people.

" I would qualify for French health insurance (at presumably a lower rate than the God-awful amount I pay here) - is that right?"

No. You'd have to have your own health insurance.

There's a lot of misinformation floating around here, not surprising as it is all very difficult, confusing and constantly changing.

katkat, it is great to post on here to get a feel for what's required for French residency but the only valid source of information is from the French consulate closest to your US residence. As mentioned above, requirements include adequate income to be self-supporting and health insurance coverage but nowhere (that I could find) are details given i.e. a specific amount of income or a certain level of insurance. We have private US insurance which pays 80/20 after $1,000. We have not found this onerous, as Kerouac said, routine charges are very low, 23€ for a GP appointment, for example.

I entered France without a long term visa as my husband is a UK passport holder. However, within three months of entering France I had to apply for a carte de séjour and present proof of income, insurance, etc. At his age 65, my husband and I can join the French health system off the bat of his 30+ contributions to the UK health system, reciprocal agreement.

St Cirq, my understanding is that if you become a permanent resident of France, you are expected to declare your worldwide income by filing yearly French tax returns (we do). You also have to file US income tax but due to a tax treaty between France and the US, you may or may not owe US tax. If you are over 65, you can join the health system (I think) but you may have to pay cotisations.

Your Irish passport provides the right to residence and to work, but not automatically to health insurance or any other benefits. I have many English friends who have been surprised by this. I would talk to a tax consultant who handles ex-pat taxes.

My view is very simplistic, we have fairly straight forward incomes and investments and have declared France as our principle residence.

Re Veronique's comment about proving sufficient income: Translating my current monthly SSD check into euros, would 1,093 euros a month be considered sufficient income for purposes of getting the long stay visa?

"katkat, it is great to post on here to get a feel for what's required for French residency but the only valid source of information is from the French consulate closest to your US residence."

Absolutely, and I actually *have* been doing a lot of research at the consulate (New York) and looking at expat blogs, doing some research on housing costs in Paris, etc., etc. As StCirq said, it's helpful to also have a "live" (sort of, almost) source of immediate information from people who have been through similar situations. It's the human touch, interacting with actual people in addition to web sites.

Which gives me another opportunity to say how happy I am I found this place. There is such a wealth of information and support here -- truly wonderful to have this forum as a source of help.

<<Your Irish passport provides the right to residence and to work, but not automatically to health insurance or any other benefits. I have many English friends who have been surprised by this.>>

Yup, I got that bit, as I stated above. Not expecting any benefits and won't be surprised by any of that.

Thanks for the explanations, all. I'm in the process of selling my house in France right now and feel awash in the French bureaucracy already; this just adds another layer. Fortunately, I can negotiate quite adequately in, and read, French - it must be a really tough row to hoe for those who can't....or an expensive one.

katkat1950,

There is no set figure but most agree that you need +/- 2000 euros a month to be considered self-sufficient. But someone can come with half of that or even no monthly income at all if they have the money in a savings account.

The thing is the visa is initially granted for only a year's residence so as long as between your income and your savings you have 24,000 euros it is likely the visa would be granted. Your situation is then reassessed yearly when you apply for the carte de séjour (residence permit) renewal.

Lower income can also be compensated by proving you have low expenses in France: for instance free housing through a friend or relative.

30+ years

"Translating my current monthly SSD check into euros, would 1,093 euros a month be considered sufficient income for purposes of getting the long stay visa?"

Probably. There is no fixed amount. Each case is reviewed separately. Bear in mind that the minimum monthly salary in France is €1.398 and that once you've paid rent, taxes, food, utilities etc... you won't have a lot of spending money left.

katkat,

Your ss income may or may not be too low, but, as Mystique said, savings would also be taken into account.

In real terms, given costs today, that amount is low if it is meant to cover housing in addition to all other monthly expenses. But, much is dependent on where in France you choose to live. And, while at present the euro is down against the dollar, that can and has changed overnight so that is an dded consideration.

St cirq, sorry I misunderstood what you wrote. I am not sure what health cover cotisations you would pay, I think roughly 4% to 12% of your income, depending on level of income, after all allowances. This is what I meant by difficult because if you declare the house you will own in France as your principal residence, you are expected to file income taxes in France, on which the cotisations are then based to receive a carte vitale. Perhaps there is a way around this, but I know of none. Let me know what you find out!

Regarding translations, we are proficient enough not to have had to use a translator other than when required to have documents translated and stamped by a traducteur assermenté. This runs about 30€ per page.

StCirq, where is your house in France? A naive question: why is there so much bureaucracy in selling a house? Is it because you are not a French native?

<i>@kerouac, why did your mother not know whether she was still a valid French citizen?</i>

I think that when my mother was naturalized (obligatory to become a teacher), there was something about "renouncing" one's citizenship to become an American citizen. In those days, people did not realize that other countries do not give a flying f**k about American rules and that whatever you have promised the U.S. authorities has no validity in the real world. Many countries have decreed that citizenship is "unrenounceable."

And since my parents moved to France long before the internet existed, it was not super easy to find out such things.

Tentek, my house is in....drum roll...St-Cirq (full name St-Cirw-du-Bugue) in the Périgord. I've had it for almost 20 years. And no, the amount of bureaucracy to wade through has nothing to do with me not being a French national. It's just the way the system in France works.
First I needed to dig up my divorce property settlement and get an "official translation" of it, even though I could do a decent job of that myself (not a translator but have decades of study and use of French), to prove that I am now the sole owner of the house. Then to find tbe original acte d'achat (which is inside the house in France, where I am not at the moment) which involved lengthy calls and emails back and forth to the original notaire who handled the sale of the house. Then you put the house on the market and wait for a promesse d'achat, which involves all kinds of paperwork; then you negotiate with the potential buyer, and only when you arrive at a final price does he/she put down 10% of the agreed-upon price, which goes into an escrow account, which takes about 10 days; then the buyer has 3 months to finally agree to buy, or not and lose his 10%. All the while, the house must be inspected and so on and so forth, all involving tons of paperwork. When/if the buyer agrees to buy you have to meet and sign a compromis. Then you have to go to the equivalent of closing. You have to find a mortgage company, a royal PITA if you're not French (actually, in my case it was easy - the notaire just said "here, use these guys," BUT still had to get pay stubs and tax returns and company financial records translated...bla bla bla...). You have to open a French bank account. And there are several "alternative" type of purchases that get even more complicated. Etc., etc., etc.
This time around I'll be familiar with the process, and will be paying in cash so won't need a mortgage. Should be easier in many respects. Although actually, with the help of a notaire and knowing the language, buying the place in St-Cirq was easier than buying either of the two houses I've purchased in VA.

"The thing is the visa is initially granted for only a year's residence so as long as between your income and your savings you have 24,000 euros it is likely the visa would be granted."

I have no savings. I live entirely on my monthly SSD check. And where I live here -- in a one-bedroom apartment in northern New Jersey, about 10 miles from NYC -- I pay, translated into Euros, 776 euros a month in rent.

In dollars, that's $988, a month, which I have paid every single month for almost four years, out of a monthly check of $1,291. That's $100 less than my monthly SSD check would be, in dollars, if I moved to France, because $100 is automatically deducted from my check every month to pay my Medicare Part B premium. I would cancel that deduction if I moved to France, since I can't use Medicare there.

$988 is a pretty high rent here, although there are certainly lots of apartments more expensive. And in my housing cost researches (mostly, so far, on Craigslist), there seem to be lots of apartments for 776 euros or less. Obviously, I'd less to pay less if I can.

Of course, none of that will help me if the people responsible for approving long-stay visas don't think 1,093 euros a month is sufficient to be independent. :-)

Obviously, I'd LIKE to pay less in that next to last paragraph.

"Bear in mind that the minimum monthly salary in France is €1.398 and that once you've paid rent, taxes, food, utilities etc... you won't have a lot of spending money left."

Do you mean there is a minimum income amount below which no employer can legally pay? That *seems* to be what you're saying, but I want to make sure.

As far as not having much spending money left, hey-- welcome to my life. :-) I have only a few hundred -- at most -- left every month after paying rent, out of which I have to pay everything else. I've done it for almost four years. In August it'll be four years. I don't have a car, either. I live extremely frugally. It's not much of a life if you can't live without a lot of extras, but I can. I wish I didn't have to, of course, but I do have to, so I do.

"I think that when my mother was naturalized (obligatory to become a teacher), there was something about "renouncing" one's citizenship to become an American citizen."

Ah, this might be an answer to my own question about whether my parents had to renounce their Dutch and French nationalities, respectively, when they were naturalized, in the late 1940s or possibly the early 1950s.

"In those days, people did not realize that other countries do not give a flying f**k about American rules and that whatever you have promised the U.S. authorities has no validity in the real world."

Ha! I love this!!

And you've indirectly touched on part of my motivation for wanting to move to France.