French grammar question
 

Actually, someone else's posting about French language classes reminded me that I've had a question recently that I can't seem to answer on my own--I've already consulted my French dictionaries and grammar books.

Some adjectives change in meaning if they are placed before or after the noun they are modifying.

nouvelle, nouveau are in that group.
If I recall correctly, the subtle difference is between calling something 'new' as opposed to 'brand new.'

Anyway, if I go into a shop and want to buy a new watch band for my watch, do I want un nouveau bracelet, or un
bracelet nouveau ?

Elaine, I'm not a French expert by any means, but I looked it up in my dictionary, and it says "brand new" is neuf or neuve, and "new" is nouveau or nouvelle.

I don't know whether it matters if it's in front of the noun or after it.

It goes in front . And it also depends on masculin- feminin etc.

marcy, that's it, I knew there was some distinction in the kinds of 'new' and I'd forgotten about neuf, neuve vs nouveau, nouvelle

Pont Neuf
Nouvelle Cuisine
thanks!

if anyone is interested, I just found a great on-line explanation (neuf and neuve always go after the noun, nouveau and nouvelle always go before)


http://french.about.com/od/mistakes/a/new.htm

It's probably in that about link (I've not linked), but sometimes placing the adjective gives a very restrictive meaning.

For example, le train dernier (the previous train), le dernier train (absolutely the very last train).

yes, good point, that's what I was recalling, sort of, but I was blanking out about 'new'

Un grand homme is a great man
Un homme grand is a big/tall man

But we say Beaujolais nouveau -- So it seems nouveau does not always go before.

Elaine, remember too to pronounce it thus: Un grant-homme

(Mr Valliant s French class, Ridgemont High School, 1968)

yes, of course you're right, unless that's a particular and rare exception?

OK then why is the "Pont Neuf" always the oldest bridge in town? :-)

found this at
www.frenchclasses.com
"Nouveau" placement is flexible apparently:

La place dans la phrase
Nouveau est placé devant le substantif qu'il accompagne

Un nouveau règlement vient de sortir.

Nous fêtons le Nouvel An entre amis.

ou bien après le substantif. En septembre par exemple, on voit des affiches dans tous les bistrots:

Le vin blanc doux nouveau est arrivé!

Goûtez le Beaujolais Nouveau!

I think you can safely put nouveau before or after and certainly you will be understood. The only exception would be you wouldn't put neuf in front as that would mean nine. I think the about.com article is good but that isn't exactly the way I learned it or use it, and I think it may be a little outdated. Generally, that article seems right to me in the distinction in neuf and nouveau, but clearly nouveau is NOT always in front of the word as I think she says (Art Nouveau, Beaujolais Nouveau, etc).

My understanding is that when it is just a simple adjective that means new, it is after the word, but when in front it refers to a sequence or series, if that makes sense. This is similar to what about.com says EXCEPT she implies only neuf is used to mean new, and I think modern usage has nouveau used in the same way.

For example, if you were talking about reading a livre nouveau, that would mean a book that is newly published or just came out, but if you said you were reading a nouveau livre, that would mean perhaps you had finished a book yesterday and now were reading a new book to you. (this is similar to the usage of dernier or premier, before or after a noun, but not exactly the same) I think if you want to buy a new bracelet it would be bracelet nouveau, but you wouldn't really have to say that in a shop as anything you buy there is obviously new to you, you could just say you wanted to buy a bracelet.

The place I disagree with about.com is that it is basically saying nouveau is always in front and neuf is after a noun, and has the meaning of just new as in newly created. I think when nouveau is behind a noun, it has that same meaning and is often used that way, especially nowadays. I have a French grammar book written for French students, not foreigners learning French, and it makes that distinction in nouveau before a noun (or nouvel when appropriate) or after. It's published by Larousse and is already about 15 years old, so clearly the use of nouveau both before and after a noun has been commonly used for some time.

This book does refer to neuf mainly as meaning a new "thing" or something just made, except for familiar or slang expressions where it is used to mean something new to me or figuratively, a real beginner on a job, etc. For example, the phrase "voila, qui est tout neuf for moi"! is cited as "familiar usage" which according to about.com would not be said. Of course there is the common saying "quoi de neuf?" or variations, but it is funny in that it notes that the Academie Francaise insists "quoi de nouveau" is preferred.

I think the "brand new" phrasing in some Am/French dictionaries or on about.com is an attempt to convert a concept to English or American slang, as that phrase doesn't really mean a lot to me -- one of those redundant sayings (as in really unique). It's probably an attempt to convey the newly made vs. "new to me" idea.

sorry, I am mixing up my French and English, the phrase was:

voilà, qui est tout neuf pour moi

This notion of the fluidity of the rules regarding the placement of adjectives seems to apply to all of them.

My impression is that if you say, for example, "un retard interminable", then you are making a statement of fact: an interminable delay i.e. one whose end cannot be foreseen.

But if you put the adjective in front, then you are introducing your emotional response to the situation and saying: "a @!@!@! interminable delay".

I would love to hear from a native speaker regarding this point.

Harzer

Tedgale, sounds like Mr. Valliant was a grand homme himself. Fast times?

Indytravel, because the older ones always fell down and the new one was built better? Then the even newer ones were built better still? Or was that a rhetorical question?

Où est la nouvelle serviette blanche? Les Boche viennent.

Et nous attendrons les américains jusqu'á.....?

>why is the "Pont Neuf" always the oldest bridge in town? <

I wonder too, since it is the ninth bridge. :)

>>>I think you can safely put nouveau before or after and certainly you will be understood.<<<

This is not true! Nouveau/nouvelle (when it means "New") is in the small group of adjectives that ALWAYS, ALWAYS go BEFORE the noun (beau/belle/bel, etc are also in that group). Someone french may understand you if you put it behind, but this is a rule that children learn before they even go to school -- therefore it would sound odd and surely they would feel as if you hadn't made the effort to learn even the simplest french grammer. (Although sometimes it's easier to forget the stuff you learned first!)

Anyway -- you can always safely put nouveau/nouvelle before the noun if your intended translation is "new".

As for Beaujolais Nouveau -- it's a creative expression, a title so to speak, therefore it's not really a grammer issue. It's like us changing things that are spelled with a C to a K to make it funny. Like "Kountry Kitchen"

Lastly, as for the pont neuf -- it is the oldest bridge in Paris, making the name ironic, however when it was built it was the newest bridge in Paris -- Napoleon's crowning glory and pride!

Good luck! This should clear it up for you!

I'm fairly certain that Pont Neuf predates Napoleon by centuries.

Construction of the Pont Neuf began in 1578, and it is the oldest bridge in Paris.

Bonsoir à tous !

Juste quelques précisions :-) !

1. One can't say "le train dernier", you can only say "je vais prendre le dernier train" (I'm going to take the last train). The only expression in which "dernier" comes after the noun is "le Jugement dernier" (Last Judgment).

2. When you enter a shop and want to buy something to replace the old one, you'll say "j'aimerais acheter un nouveau bracelet"... If you want the shopkeeper to show you his latest models, you'll say "qu'avez-vous comme tout nouveaux bracelets en magasin, s'il vous plaît ?" or "quels sont vos nouveaux modèles, s'il vous plaît ?"

3. As Laura explains in her lessons, normally, "nouveau" changes meanings according to its place.

http://french.about.com/od/mistakes/a/new.htm

See "le Grand Robert" dictionary :

- "Avoir une voiture NOUVELLE, c'est avoir une voiture d'un type récemment créé, qui vient à peine de sortir " (the car has just been "launched" on the market, tell me if my use of the verb "launch" is correct or not, please !)

- alors que/whereas : "une NOUVELLE voiture" est "une voiture qui remplace la précédente et qui peut n'être pas neuve." (a new car is the car which replaces the previous one, and may not be brand new, it may be a second hand car)

4. Be careful when you use "neuf/neuve" which can apply to something which has never been used before. "Brand new" = "tout neuf/toute neuve".

Yet, it can also mean something which is less "old" than another thing. Thus, "une voiture neuve"... "n'est pas forcément une voiture nouvelle."

And whatever it means, it can only be used AFTER the noun. Voilà ! Bonne fin de journée ! Marie

Yes 'launch' can be used here to mean 'release onto the market for the first time.'

But " .. qui n'etre pas neuve" wasn't in Le Grand Robert or even le Petit Robert. Where did that come from?

Harzer

Marie: How about "flambant neuf" for "brand new"?

Or am I misremembering my French idioms?

I have one of the Robert books, "Dictionnaire des difficultes du francais", I'd forgotten to look in there.
The info on neuf and nouveau doesn't mention the <before or after the noun> conundrum.

To Harzer : Bonjour !

Thanks a lot for your help ! I thought of "release" but didn't dare to use it...

The sentence with "qui n'est pas neuve" comes from "Le Grand Robert Electronique", a wonderful Cd which I can't live without (hum, correct ?), it's my Bible ;-)

You can also get quotations containing "nouveau" and "neuf", look :

"1 Ce qui est nouveau vient de paraître pour la première fois; ce qui est neuf vient d'être fait et n'a point encore servi; ce qui est récent vient de se passer tout à l'heure. On dit une mode nouvelle, un habit neuf (...) un fait ou un exemple récent. La chose nouvelle n'était pas connue; la chose neuve n'est pas usée (...) la chose récente n'est pas ancienne. Une invention est nouvelle, une expression neuve.
LAFAYE, Dict. des synonymes, Nouveau, neuf..."

"4.1 Le peuple bavarois circulait en vêtements neufs, en gants neufs, en chapeaux neufs, mais étoffes et feutres étaient rêches à la vue, au toucher (...)
J. GIRAUDOUX, Siegfried et le Limousin, p. 126." Cordialement. Marie

Bonjour Marie, it's nice to see you here. Welcome!

To Tedgale : Bonsoir !

In my Oxford-Hachette "dico" online, one finds "tout neuf" for "brand-new"...

On the other hand, in my "Robert & Collins" paper "Senior" dico, they add "flambant neuf" to "tout neuf".

So, yes, your memory is very good :-) Bonne fin de journée ! Marie

To Mimi : So pleased to see you back online ! Do take care of yourself, you may be a little "fragile" for the weeks to come ! Be a good girl and do have a rest whenever you feel tired ! And thanks for your nice words !/Et merci pour tes paroles gentilles ! Bises. Marie

To Elaine : Bonsoir !

Well, this info can be found "en large et en travers"/at great length when you type in "nouveau" in the "Grand Robert Electronique" available on a Cd... Bonne fin de journée ! Marie

Bon soir, Marie
If I understand the selection from Le Grand Robert that you kindly provided, the usage is more restricted than the other sources that have been cited here.

If it's 'nouveau' it's appearing for the first time or was unknown previously, and if it's 'neuf' it has never been used before.

So, new clothes, new to the person wearing them, are 'neuf' (to be plural of course) but a new fashion (new to the world) is nouveau?

So, will I want a bracelet neuf if I want a new watchband for my old watch in this nouvelle annee ?

=:)

Bonjour Elaine :-)

When you want to buy new clothes, you say "je veux m'acheter/acheter des nouveaux vêtements" ("une nouvelle robe" par exemple/a new dress, for instance, or/and "un nouveau pantalon/new trousers), you don't need to specify "des vêtements neufs", unless you happen to buy second-hand clothes at times... "Neuf" is the opposite of "d'occasion" when you speak about clothes, cars, etc.

In the same way, you don't need to specify that you want to buy/need a "bracelet de montre neuf", except if the shop-keeper also sells... second-hand ones :-) You can content yourself with saying "je désire acheter un nouveau bracelet pour ma montre, l'ancien (the old one) est usé/worn out" or "ne me plaît plus"/I no longer like it...

As to fashion, we'd say "à la dernière mode" ("s'habiller à la dernière mode" = "to wear the latest fashions") IMHO, saying "la nouvelle mode" or "la mode nouvelle" sounds a bit weird... We'd say "quelles sont les nouvelles tendances de la mode du printemps/été 2005 ?"/what are the new fashion trends for the spring and summer 2005 ? (please, correct my English, this is the nicest thing you can do for me :-) !)

Voilà ! Bonne et heureuse nouvelle année/tous mes voeux pour cette nouvelle année ! Marie

Unlike my French, your English is perfect!

Merci bien Marie!

Marie: I notice your use of the phrase "des nouveaux vetements" which, of course, does not follow the usual rule of dropping the unstated definite article (les) when an adjective precedes the noun.

For non linguists: Normally you would write "des vetements" but "DE nouveaux vetements".

This may have been a "faute de frappe" (typo) or it may have been intentional, as I seem to recall that the rule can be broken in some cases.

I seem to remember that the rule need not apply when the adjective is integral to the concept -- e.g. a compound proper name ("Il y a de bons marches a Paris mais il y a egalement des Bons Marches" -- ?????)

Have you any thoughts on this? I am asking sincerely, not to point out an apparent error.

First of all, thanks, Elaine, for your nice words, you're very indulgent ;-) !

Now, re-bonjour Tedgale !

"For non linguists: Normally you would write "des vêtements" but "DE nouveaux vêtements"."

Ouah, lol ! This is what my students call "une prise de tête" in today's colloquial French :-) !

You're "obliging me" to ponder on what may have been either a typo or a mistake :-)

Well, according to my old grammar-book, you're right ;-) ! But, both my dh who had just arrived from work and I did wonder what was wrong and what we would/should say:-) !

The grammar book from my "classe de 4ème" says "l'article "des" (partitif ou indéfini) se réduit à "de" lorsque le nom est précédé d'un adjectif"... Exemples : "j'ai reçu de bons amis", "j'ai vu de beaux tableaux" ("Grammaire française", "classes de 4ème et suivantes", by A. Hamon, "Classiques Hachette", page 196)

Yet, one finds this in the "Grand Robert Electronique" in the page dedicated to "des", ARTICLE INDEFINI :

- "REM. 1. "De" remplace généralement "des" devant un adjectif." and gives this quotation from André Malraux (so you can notice the presence of the adverb "généralement"/generally...) :

"10 Le Russe mangeait des petits bonbons au sucre (...)
MALRAUX, la Condition humaine, I, in Romans, Pl., p. 173."

Thus, when "des" is not "un article partitif" and is "un article indéfini", (which nuance is often difficult to analyze...), one can meet "des" before "un groupe nominal" with an adjective in it.

Bon, pour l'instant, c'est tout ! If I think of anything else, I'll "come back" and tell you ;-) But, at first sight, YOU are RIGHT ;-) Cordialement. Marie

OK, now I totally understand why such grammatical rules confuse me. As long as they also confuse Marie, I feel OK. And if I inadvertently get some of this stuff wrong when I try to tell the cab driver where to drop me off in Paris, I assume he'll forgive me.

To Nikky : ;-) !!!

To Tedgall, a good American friend who is completely bilingual forwarded me some extracts from the other French "bible" "Le Bon Usage, by Maurice Grevisse.

http://www.langue-fr.net/biblio/Bon-Usage.htm

Here is my friend's mail :

- "On met "du", "de la", "de l' ", "des" devant les nom composés et les groupes de mots où l'adjectif fait corps avec le nom :

DES grands-pères. DES jeunes gens. DU bons sens. DE LA bonne volonté. ... Donnez-moi DES petits pois (LITTRÉ, s.v. pois) ..."

"So there is a difference between "à Paris, il y a DE grands magasins partout" et "à Paris il y a DES grands magasins partout", for example.

Grevisse goes on to say that, "dans l'usage ordinaire d'aujourd'hui", "Au singulier, "de bon pain", "de bonne soupe" s'écrivent parfois encore, mais sont inusités dans la langue parlée..." mais "Au pluriel, "de bons fruits" est le tour habituel dans la langue écrite ; il s'entend couramment chez les gens qui ont un langage soigné..."

Cependant, "des bons fruits" prévaut dans la langue parlée et se répand dans la langue écrite"

Thus my dh's hesitations and mine must come from the fact that, in everyday life, we tend to use the indefinite article "des" before "un groupe nominal" with an adjective/adjectives in it... Allez, au dodo ! It's a bit late on this side of the pond :-) Au revoir ! Marie

That was a wonderfully instructive response.

Perhaps we who speak French as a second language are more severe in our interpretation and application of the rules than are native French speakers, who feel free to exercise un peu de souplesse dans la langue quotidienne.

To Tedgale : Exactement ;-) ! Don't you do the same when speaking your native tongue in your everyday life ? On a tendance à parler une langue relâchée quand on est fatigué ou/et qu'on a envie de se défouler :-) Cordialement. Marie