French Dining Manners
 

I have been looking up the "do's" & don'ts" in Sandra Gustafsons Cheap Eats in Paris but cannot find any reference to whether it is permitted (or just damn rude) to take the half drank bottle of wine back to your hotel?
As I am the only wine drinker in our family and would love to polish off the whole bottle, believe me I would regret it the next day! I have visions of putting the cork back and slipping it into our very handy travel case so I can enjoy it with a picnic lunch the next day. Yes or No??

It's not rude.

I've done it several times, and no-one turned a hair.

It's a year or two since I last did it, and it's perfectly possible some idiot in Brussels has published a rule that it's unsafe to carry undrunk wine in public. Or that somewhere in the small print of that "Repression de l'ivresse publique" poster in every French bar, there's a prohibition against this.

But no-one's ever bothered pointing it out.

Anyway, there's only one way to tell. Picking up the bottle (which you've paid for), asking for the cork and leaving the restaurant. Far more informative than any spurious advice you'll get from anyone on this board. Including me.

I've never done this sort of thing and nor would I.

In France, many restaurants (including the top-tier places) offer wonderful half-bottle selections. When I dine out alone, I either choose from the half-bottle offerings or select wines by the glass for each course, another great option with some terrific choices and a unique opportunity for a variety tasting.

My mother does this all the time in France. For her it is one of the civilized factors of the country. My father is strictly a martini drinker so she is on her own with wine. I am not saying that I would do this at Taillevent but for small local restaurants it should be fine.

And if you're dining in the hotel restaurant (particularly half or full pension), they'll hold your bottle (or bottles, actually,if you've started more than one) for you overnight.

Are you asking for permission? Are you afraid someone will think you are a "bad person" if you take the wine you paid for out of the restaurant? Are you worried that the "food snob" may be lurking under your table (hoping, of course, that you'll leave the bottle)?
If you do, or don't do this, will anyone know? or care?

Singletail, if we were to extend your philosphy, then why should we bother to try French, or say the 'nice words, or know a full meal is expected in a restaurant? What is wrong with attempting to avoid discomfort in a situation(dining)typically rife with 'etiquette rules' ? Just do what you want and hang the consequences...?

I posted this same question a while back. I decided I agree that it is easier to order a glass or even a 1/4 bottle and not deal with it. I am not a wine expert so not terribly particular as long as it isn't vinegar, therefore not looking for a special bottle or label.

A while back there was in fact a Times article that some restaurants in France have provided doggy bags for wine bottles.

You can find a reprint of the article here:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...087956177.html

I seem to remember that people even discussed this article Fodor's, but I could be mistaken.

It's perfectly acceptable. In fact , a lot of places will recork and bag it for you!

Berry Brothers

Chien" Bags Offered for Leftover Wine - 11-Dec-2003


Restaurants across France have started offering diners a 'doggy bag' for any leftover wine to halt a drop in wine sales as drink-driving controls get tougher. Some 500 restaurants across France are now offering to repackage any unfinished wine bottles by recorking the wine using a vacuvin pump to extract air, ensuring it keeps for several days, and slipping the bottle into a discreet bag. Wine sales in restaurants have dropped by 10 to 15 % in the last year as the conservative government cracks down on bad drivers, said Bordeaux wine council CIVB, which launched the initiative.
"It's not in the French or Latin spirit, so this is a good way of taking away the guilt and guaranteeing a discreet exit," CIVB spokesman Valerie Descudet said yesterday."It makes everybody happy - the restaurant owner, who is selling the wine, and the client who does not feel forced to finish the bottle or to avoid drinking altogether because of the risks it entails."

As part of French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin's efforts to improve France's appalling road safety record, police have increased road checks and the Government has implemented stricter punishments for drunk driving in the last year. In an effort to counter the Government campaign against drinking and driving, France's national wine producers' association, CNAOC,last month unveiled their own campaign saying that it's okay to have a drink or two before driving. The CNAOC Campaign has been roundly condemned by French road safety campaigners.

Singletail - No, not asking permission, just wondering if the French frown on one taking your paid for bottle with you. After enjoying a nice meal I would hate to end it on a sour note if this practice is not acceptable and I was stopped at the door.
In her book, Gustafson mentions "doggie bags" are a big No-No. Here we practice it all the time. It is better to "wise-up" than "cock-up" when in another mans backyard.

Jody - Thanks for your time in giving me that information on wine "doggie bags" - (The doggie Bags I referred to are of course food). Thank you everyone else as well for your invaluable input. It is an unfortunate that where I live half bottle are not offered in many restaurants and if they do, they are usually only a choice of one white and two reds. By the glass - Yes, the name of the wine is always "CHATEUX LE CARDBOARD" because of the box it comes in. Mostly real headache stuff.

Here in Australia we are very fortunate to be able to take our own wine to most restaurants and frankly I think we would view that, if we paid for something in a restaurant, then we would own it and had every right to take whatever portion of it with us if we purchased. My experience is, as a generalisation, there is big difference in attitudes of Parisians and those found elsewhere in France. A bit of brashness and arrogance when dealing with some Parisians in service industries of like approach often works well

I assume you mean a "half drunk" bottle of wine, odd as it sounds. Participles are so problematic. But anyway, if you paid for the wine you theoretically "own" it and can take it anywhere it's legal to take it.
I would suggest, however, that a better course would be to order a half-bottle of wine, the option of which is often available at most Paris restaurants, bistros, brasseries, etc. That means you can drink what you like and don't have to shove a half-consumed bottle into your purse when leaving a restaurant, which isn't that pretty a picture - not that I haven't done it.

Why not just order by the glass? Based on your disdain for "Chateau de Cardboard", I can assume that you'll find an opened bottle kept corked overnight until the following day's lunch really loses a lot in terms of it's structure, the nose, some color and the acidity. It' my personal experience that wines-by-the-glass in any French restaurants are in a higher league than those cardboard boxed wines where you live.

C'mon now, you're in France! Trying out another French bottle, no matter how cheap it is, for your lunch the next day should be a treat and a very French experience for any wine lover.

No one will bat an eyelash if you take the wine you paid for out of the restaurant.

I do agree that ordering half bottles severely reduces the options of bottles you can try.

I'll have to admit I've never done this and would not, and have never seen anyone else do this in a French restaurant. I order about what I expect to drink. If I'm alone, I order a half bottle or small carafe, which is about right. Your choices are limited, but in many restaurants, there is a good selection of half bottles, and it doesn't sound like you are ordering 50 euro bottles of wine to me.

Ever heard of wine-VAC stoppers? I use these at home and they are great. Buy one and pack it with you, they are lightweight and don't take up much room and keep the wine better than a cork. That way, you could stick it in yourself and pocket it, I suppose.

Why not just ask them at the restaurant if it is okay to take the half-finished bottle with you, before you order? I just ask people if things are okay if I don't know if they will take offense or not allow something.

"No one will bat an eyelash if you take the wine you paid for out of the restaurant."

Says who? Who is this LaurenSKahn and what does she know about taste, style, and elegant behavior in France? Apparently, not much.

Why would any cultured person with manners order more than he/she could drink at one meal? A sophisticated diner wouldn't.

You people, who cherish the "I paid for it, therefore, I own it" philosophy, can behave however you wish but, if I ever witnessed someone taking an open bottle of any beverage from their restaurant dinner table, the first thought that would come to my mind is "how tacky."

French restaurants offer some of the finest half-bottle selections available. There's simply no excuse to order more than you could drink at one sitting. Great wines by the glass have also become extremely popular in quality establishments. As ezlivin said, "c'mon now, you're in France."

Ah, another person vying for the coveted title of the Lavrenti Beria of the Europe boards.

If you don't know who he was, visit the library. You might learn something.

Another way to think about this is the following -- do you care what these people you'll never meet again think? I frequently feel much better if I think this way. Of course I try not to be overtly uncouth or rude, but if certain restaurants in France do provide doggy bags, I doubt that this is a crime.

There're other more important things to worry about on a trip. :-)

As I was a bit undecided about your question, although I know this is not done at all, I decided to ask some friends over here in Europe, the following question: " What are the first things going through your mind when seeing someone leave a restaurant with an unfinished bottle of wine?"

Answers:
- 9 out of 10: "Must be Americans!"
- 7 out of 10: "A lack of savoir vivre, or elementary education!"
- 2 out of 10: "Heavy drinker!"

Tod,
If you have an excellent bottle of wine, when it will be thoroughly shaken for your picnic lunch the next day just by carrying it, it will not taste half as good as the evening before.
If you have an average bottle of wine, there is no need in taking it at all for the next day's picnic.

Sod it, you've paid for it, drink it! Anyway, you're on holiday, you're not going to see them again. Personally if I was in the restaurant I'd be more perturbed by somebody NOT finishing off the bottle during their meal than the fact that they'd taken it out with them.... but enough of my drinking habits!! Just have a lovely time and enjoy some fabulous food and wine!

Watching these boards is like watching a bunch of Star Trek nerds argue over who is the bigger chick magnet.

Lighten up, people.

Here's a real news flash: genuinely sophisticated and cultured people don't cruise websites of mid-priced travel guides badmouthing other posters with their obnoxious snobbery. Or is that really you, Prince Rainier? The level of narcissism displayed here on a daily basis is nothing short of astonishing.

Here's another news flash: Posters you disagree with are not the equivalent of the Secret Police taking you to the gulag. Beria? Seriously?

I've never done this and in fact, have never seen it done anywhere in France or here in Belgium. Perhaps they are doing it *now* due to the info in the article cited above, but it hasn't been a common thing to do, especially in better restaurants.
It's not uncommon for restaurants to get a "kickback" of sorts from wine sellers for the corks (less common now than it used to be though) and there may be a deposit on the bottle (pennies, but still...) so you may find the restaurateur somewhat reluctant to let you abscond with the bottle. If you really want to take the bottle, turn on all your charm, big smile, compliments on the wine, the food, the ambience, and how you just can't finish it at the moment but can't bear to let it go, etc. etc.
Overall, though, siding with baldrick on this one so QC, I guess you can mark me down as just another unsophisticated, uncultured traveler ;-)
FYI, QC, are you including yourself in that category of the great unwashed since you post here too?

we were in paris in april and faced the same dilemma (once). we just asked the very kind waiter, in "frenglish," if we could take the bottle, and he came back and popped the cork in it. no bag necessary.

it can't hurt to ask . . . just be polite.

Being an American (and a wino) I've done this (only when in a hotel restaurant, and asking them to deliver it to our room). Being French, my husband was horrified -- but did enjoy a glass of wine in the room later!

<i>&quot;Here's a real news flash: genuinely sophisticated and cultured people don't cruise websites of mid-priced travel guides...&quot;</i>

QC, how <b>wrong</b> you are. And, since you made such a foolish statement, I have to assume you don't know any sophisticated and cultured people which says a lot about you and your noticeable lack of education in social manners.

I conducted my own survey in the past year, or so, and interviewed about 100 prominently successful Mahattanites on the subject of travel forum use. Over 50% said they used fodors forum for research but most had no desire to register and post here. Before I started my own research project, I fell into this same camp.

Nobody needs to belong to a Royal Family to be cultured and sophisticated. All anyone needs is a sincere respect for education and civilized behavior. Anyone can acquire this, regardless of social class or income. Reading books is a great way to learn and God bless America for libraries.

baldrick's smaller survey proves a simple point: the concept of <b>less is more</b> is a difficult one for many Americans to swallow. Diners whose eyes and wallets are bigger than their stomachs have not learned how to dine in a sophisticated manner. Those who wish to further take their purchases from their table as a result of over-purchasing are just plain uncouth and inelegant. :'(

As for agaKahn, her competitive and defensive rants here on fodors speak volumes. Nothing more needs to be said.

<i>&quot;Those who wish to further take their purchases from their table as a result of over-purchasing are just plain uncouth and inelegant.&quot;</i>

(Disclaimer: There will always be exceptions and an educated consumer will handle these appropriately.)

If you lack self-confidence and/or worry to excess about what people you don't know think, then follow the pompous advice of high and mighty wesley - be a good little robot and play the silly snob game.

I'll laugh at you thirsty people later while drinking the rest of my wine.

I'm not being snobbish here, but just being practical in enjoying the finer things in life whenever I can and whenever I'm in France.

I'll probably be laughing harder when I buy and open a fresh bottle of wine while I watch you drink your stale bottle.

Why not take the path of least resistance? As soon as you're seated and receive your menus, ask for a glass of the house red or white (whatever you're in the mood for). If you like it, keep drinking it by verre/carafe/pichet, problem solved! If it's not what you want, check the half bottles list first. A lot of good wines are available in France by the half bottle. Then if nothing catches your fancy...then ask the waiter for advice (the French love to advise, esp. on matters of food, wine, and style). Explain you're the only wine drinker in your family (sighing that is their loss as you are in a country with such wonderful wine) and would love to order such and such, but you know you won't be able to finish it...would there be any objection to taking the rest with you? For all their apparent extravagance, a vein of frugality runs through the French psyche.
By the way, what's the policy in the U.S. these days? If you don't finish your wine in an American restaurant (assuming it's not a BYOB), are you free to leave with the unfinished bottle?

If you ordered a carafe of wine and didn't finish it, should you ask the waiter for a &quot;to-go&quot; cup? ((a)) ((b))

In New York City, it is against the law to carry an open container of liquor onto the street. Therefore, sophisticated or not, diners have no choice but to leave any excess behind, whether they brought it themselves or not.

The rule in NYC is frequently flouted though.

I remember reading some funny articles last year -- I think it was on CNN -- that people at a rock concert in Central Park were handled summons for drinking beer, whereas people at a classical music concert (opera in the Park? Philharmonic in the park?) drinking wine were not. This was presented as evidence of Bloomberg's (the mayor's) snobbery.

A bit of a stretch, no doubt, but amusing nonetheless. My friends and I have certainly drunk wine in the Park without problems. We've in fact snuck wine bottles into the Met Opera and inbibed while watching opera.

Again, as I said, do what you please. As long as you're courteous and don't draw attention to yourself, people around you have other more important things to worry about.

Taking open containers (that could come from anywhere, including home) to a park concert is a bit different from leaving a restaurant with the bottle of wine ordered...are restaurants offering to let patrons leave with their unfinished wines these days?

Well, BT, I've never done it myself, so honestly I don't know. But there're places in NYC that are BYOB, so presumably if that's the case, then they can't have anything against your bringing your unfinished wine with you. As for a more upscale restaurant, I'm not sure what the restaurant would do. I'd like to think of it this way -- in an ideal situation, as long as a customer is not outrageous, the restaurant should keep him/her happy. I cannot imagine why a restaurant would not let a customer carry an unfinished bottle away. After all, my impression is that in the US it's much more common to ask for doggy bags to take your leftovers away -- why should it be any different for wine? If I feel that what I'm asking to do is not out of the ordinary, and the restaurant is not sufficiently obliging, I'll make it a note not to return to the restaurant. Life is too short to worry about trifles like these.

For heavens' sakes, just take it with you! Bringing your own vacuum stopper is a great suggestion!

And, when you see that bubble arising from the top of the head of the diner at the next table, with the words &quot;How tacky&quot; enclosed in the bubble - just put on a big American grin and wave the stoppered bottle at him! :) I would.

BTW, wherever we are in the world, we tend to finish our bottle while dining, so that must mean we are sophisticated. Sometimes, we have to order a second bottle - which means we must be doubly sophisticated.

Cheers! ((d))

<i>&quot;I cannot imagine why a restaurant would not let a customer carry an unfinished bottle away.&quot;</i>

The abundance of hubris and <b>bad advice</b> on internet travel forums is astounding. And, the continued proliferation of selfish and arrogant, I'll-do-as-I-please type consumers is scary. No wonder the breakdown of gracious manners is so prevalent these days.

It seems clear to me that 111op has never paid $250 an hour for a smart attorney's advice because there are <b>serious ramifications</b> for any business owner with a liquor license who gets caught breaking the rules. One works too hard to be so careless and self-destructive.

NYCFS, I think that decorum breaks down when you twist the spirit of what I'm saying. Worry not -- I've better things to do than to fight with you on this forum.

Ok, I haven't paid $250 an hour for an attorney's advice. So what? At least I don't go gaga over $250 for a pair of jeans. :-) If I haven't seen much at least I can claim I'm not yet 40. Still pretty far from it, in fact. :-)

easytraveler, I sure like your style.

yawning, if you buy that additional bottle of wine, you sure better finish it all in one sitting. The French hate seeing half-empty bottles of Pink Passion or Red Ripple on the sidewalk.

Ok -- to get back to civility a bit -- regarding poor advice, etc.

I'd like to say the following. I've posted a link to a Times article that carrying a bottle of unfinished wine away is perfectly acceptable in France. Someone else has done the same. This is fact, not fiction. Take it or leave it.

Regarding my advice and experience with NYC, I think that my postings again speak for themselves. Where's the bad advice?