I would certainly never trust online information unless it was from a website operated by a medical authority, and I'm sure that true of most people in this discussion.<BR><BR>But having personally had physicians misdiagnose problems, or miss things, which were then properly identified by nonmedical friends, I will say this: Until the medical profession is universally infallible, it will make sense for patients to check up on all possible sources, while taking resposibility for considering the relative validity or completeness of them all.<BR><BR>Remember, the original poster wasn't asking a medical question, she was asking a question about how cheeses are made -- i.e., how to tell which ones are made with unpasteurized milk so she could avoid them as her physician recommended.<BR>

The cheese sellers in marketplaces in France will most certainly know if their cheeses are unpasteurized or not. So will the people behind the counter at any reputable supermarket in France - food, after all, is a national obsession. If you hang out in French markets and supermarkets a lot, as I do, you will find that it's not at all uncommon for the average shopper to engage the vendor in a lengthy conversation about the origins of the product, its manufacture, its age, the best ways to use it, etc. It's completely unlike shopping in the USA, where the grocery store staff don't know a thing about what they're selling other than what label someone has put on it.<BR><BR>And after reading this thread I must say I'm amazed I survived pregnancy in France. I was there while pregnant with both of my kids and ate anything and everything, including unpasteurized cheeses and beef and lamb and plenty of p&acirc;t&eacute;. It never even ocurred to me to ask if I should be wary of anything. But it's always been my hunch that Americans are so concerned about "sanitation" that they never acquire immunity to anything.

Thank you, Suzy; my question was not for medical advice,as you noted, but for information re cheese, and most responders have been very helpful. It seems that the hard/soft distinction is really not the way to determine pasteurization.

Some well known cheese :<BR><BR>-Brocciu (crude milk)<BR>-Beaufort (crude)<BR>-Bleu du Vercors (pasteurized)<BR>-Emmental (crude)<BR>-Raclette(can be crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Reblochon (crude)<BR>-St-Felicien (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Tomme de savoie (crude)<BR>-Vacherin (crude)<BR>-Bleu de Gex (crude)<BR>-Comte (crude)<BR>-Epoisses (crude)<BR>-Morbier (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Munster (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Mont d'Or (crude)<BR>-Brie de Meaux, Melun or Coulomiers (crude)<BR>-Maroilles (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-St-Paulin (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Camembert (usually crude)<BR>-Crottin de Chavignol (???)<BR>-Livarot (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Pont L'eveque (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Selles (???)<BR>-Bleu des Causses (crude)<BR>-Cabecou (crude)<BR>-Laguiole (crude)<BR>-Ossau Iraty (???)<BR>-Roquefort (crude)<BR>-Bleu d'Auvergne (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Cantal (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Fourme d'Ambert (pasteurized)<BR>-Gaperon (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Saint-Nectaire (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Salers (crude)<BR>-Murol (pasteurized)<BR><BR>As you can see, there are very few cheese which are always pasteurized. That's why it would be a good idea to buy your cheese at a market/in a little shop and ask the owner.<BR><BR>As for listeria, there has been cases with pasteurized cheese too, since listeria can "invade" a pasteurized cheese if a strict hygiene isn't respected, and is actually more likely to do so, since it doesn't "compete" with as much other micro-organisms. But whatever floats your boat.<BR><BR> Of course though you can easily find a poor non pasteurized cheese, it's difficult to find a good pasteurized one, since the flavor comes from the micro-organisms destroyed by this process (in pasteurized cheese, flavor is restored in some way by adding I don't know what, possibly "safe" micro-organisms)<BR><BR>Concerning eggs, I couldn't answer, since I don't know what is exactly a "properly cooked egg". I would assume that eggs in a creme brule are properly cooked, but I couldn't swear it. AFAIK, eggs are never pasteurized in france. Uncooked eggs doesn't seem to be a health issue in france, or at least not near to the same level than in the US. I don't know why.<BR><BR>

StC, why are you "amazed that you survived pregnancy"? The risks we're talking about aren't risks to the mother, after all. And they are small risks, so it's not at all surprising that an individual would "escape" the problem.<BR><BR>Listeria monocytogenes, the most common culprit in these cases, wasn't even identified until a couple of decades ago. It has caused far more deaths than "Mad cow disease" but because it doesn't cause weird scary symptoms, it doesn't get as much coverage. <BR><BR>Remember, the medical profession didn't even recognize Fetal Alcohol Syndrome until the 1970s, and it's probably been with us since fermented beverages were discovered in prehistory. <BR><BR>Here's an early article from the World Health Organization about listeria in dairy products in France.<BR><BR>http://www.who.int/disease-outbreak-news/n2000/feb/29feb2000.html<BR><BR>And some other discussion from reputable sources (some in French, alas):<BR><BR>http://www.chu-rouen.fr/ssf/pathol/listeriainfection.html<BR>http://www.health.fgov.be/WHI3/krant/krantarch2000/kranttekstapr/000413c08afp.htm<BR>http://www.ifst.org/hottop2.htm

StCirq<BR><BR>You said,<BR><BR>"It's completely unlike shopping in the USA, where the grocery store staff don't know a thing about what they're selling other than what label someone has put on it."<BR><BR>Do you stereotype people all the time? What do you think of the Jews? I can only imagine. I teach cooking classes in the US and find that most grocers are quite competent and concerned about what they sell to their customers. They also know their product very well. What a typical arrogant, pompous French thing to say. Only the French really understand food etc. Give me a break!

Dr Suzy<BR><BR>You are so smart. Can I get your real e-mail address? I would love to talk to you.

St. Cirq, I am 61 yrs. old, and there were lots of things we did when pregnant that are now advised against, such as having an occasional drink, drinking caffeine, dyeing our hair, possibly eating an unpasteurized cheese,etc.; I would imagine that in the vast, vast majority of cases no harm was done. However, I can certainly understand young women in this day and age wanting to take every possible precaution and following medical advice as it is delivered today. An analogous example might be that thirty years ago we thought nothing of holding a baby on our laps in the car--incomprehensible today.

Suzy<BR><BR>You're too easy to read my dear. You should have waited at least for one or two others to respond before you so defensively responded to my post. Alas, you're not the person you want us to think you are. <BR><BR>

Suzy: I guess I should've said I was amazed that my kids had turned out normal - there seemed to be a certain amount of hysteria over all the things a pregnant woman shouldn't eat in France on this thread. I never gave it a thought - and neither did my doctors, and both my kids are very healthy. <BR><BR>Jonathan: I'm not French, but I do appreciate your thinking I am. Perhaps you're not aware of the major differences between French grocers and US grocers, but there are considerable ones. The young people behind, let's say, the cheese counter, at the Intermarch&eacute;, know FAR more than anyone I've ever come into contact with in my local Giant or Safeway, where they can't even spell the names of the products correctly, never mind tell you their origins or their uses. Maybe you as a cooking school person have a special relationship with your local grocery store, but believe me, the average person goes to the grocery store, asks, "Does that cheese have cumin it it?" and gets "beats me" as an answer, never mind if you ask a really complicated question. I reiterate, the French staff in any grocery store are far more knowledgable than their American counterparts. Sounds to me like you haven't been to France or spent much time talking to French grocery clerks or vendors at markets. There's a world of difference.

Grandm&egrave;re: Entendu! It was only 15 and 12 years ago that I embarked for France pregnant, but still, you're right. We take more precautions all the time, and that's a good thing for yong mothers. At the same time, something tells me Americans' obsession with cleanliness and santitation - and NO, I'm not a dirty person or an untidy person - keeps them from acquiring immunity to anything. I'm well into middle age, and I haven't been sick for a day for more than 15 years. I travel all over the world and try all kinds of food and shower and shampoo daily, but I do not carry bacterial soap with me everywhere or spray Lysol around my house or bleach the heck out of my clothes or worry about sharing a toothbrush with one of my kids if we forget one on an overnight trip or..whatever. I do think Americans obsess about this stuff, and are consequently less healthy than if their bodies had been exposed to more things that might build up their immunities. I'm not a doctor. This is just my theory.

Where's that Kahn lady when you need her?

St. Cirq-- and I agree with you, too!

Ahh. The cultural differences are so refreshing. In Canada where all dairy products are pasturised by law, there is also an expression, 'see what happens when you drink straight from the cow'. This is used in referrence to insanity or plain stupidity. As I was taught in school the 1 in 100,000 chance that you would succumb was to running a fever high enough not to kill you, but to leave you brain dead or simple. This only applied to young. I think this would be why expectant mothers would be warned off by their doctors.

To Pg,<BR><BR>Regarding the cheeses - almost every cheese you purchase in the grocery store will be marked on the label as made with 'pasteurized milk ,or 'au lait cru' (raw milk). It's actually pretty hard to find a raw milk cheese in the grocery store refrigerator shelves (the cheese 'counter' is a different story).<BR><BR>The link between raw milk cheese and spontaneous abortion was discovered about 15 years ago. It occurs mostly in cases where women have not been raised eating raw milk cheeses throughout their lives.<BR><BR>As to undercooked eggs - there are many restaurants that still make their own mayonnaise - so I would avoid dishes with mayonnaise as well.<BR><BR>Well cooked beef and lamb don't present a problem, so I doubt you'd have a problem with things like navarin of lamb, or beef stews.<BR>I don't understand the reference to fresh fish - perhaps shellfish, but there's no reason not to eat fish.<BR><BR>PB

Where are names of cheeses that I know? What about St. Andre,Brie qnd Fontina? These are products commonly available in the States. <BR>Also, it now becomes apparent that there is no topic (not even cheese) which doesn't cause some sort of nasty argumentative tone on this board. Most discouraging.

Pg, my list of cheeses was pasteurized milk. Glad PB has answered with good solid information. I too am thankful (like St.Cirq and Grandmere!) that my kids turned out healthy what with all the "restrictions" doctors recommend now.<BR>I think the egg thing is not a problem in Europe largely because we have created our salmonella problem in the US with overuse of antibiotics in raising poultry which is not done in Europe.

If you eat American meat products you are eating an antibiotic,hormone, steroid enhanced product. I wonder if this may not be more dangerous?

Jonathan Miller,<BR>I think that your reference to Jews has nothing to do with this and is quite uncalled for.Try to keep to the topic,you would make a better point.<BR><BR>Living in NYC-the usual person working in food markets is lucky to be able to pronounce the name of a product.Forget expecting them to know anything at all about the product!<BR>In Paris, the people that shop and the people working in the shops have a better knowledge of foods.That is in part because the French have such a different outlook on buyin,preparing and eating food.<BR>Thinking because one country does not do something that they do in the US makes that country somehow less intelligent or safe is a little ignorant itself! If people started dropping like flies because they ate unpasturized cheeses,if the children born had problems due to that, I am sure there would be some sort of changes made.<BR>Here in New York City, the doctors also tell you not to sit in a bathtub full of water!Don't dye your hair, all sorts of precautions...I think Malpractice has something to do with it, overly cautious and ignorance play a big part also.<BR>I believe Pg should listen to whomever she puts her trust in, one thing For Sure, for me that would not be a bunch of strangers on the internet!!<BR>

Cirq du Francais<BR><BR>Hey, I'm a saint too...aren't we special.<BR><BR>You do come across as a little superior and I can see why you generated such a response from Jonathan, though I agree he didn't have to say anything about the Jews. It does get a little boring being told endlessly how wonderful the French are, in every way, and how culturally inferior we Americans are. This theme is repeated on these boards ad nauseum.