Fortress Britannia: Why Not a Schengen Country?
 

a post by flanneur.uk says:

<from January 2008, the extension of Schengen to virtually all the EU except Britain, Ireland, Cyprus, Romania and Bulgaria>

and even some non EU countries i believe like Switzerland which i think joins this Jan as well (not sure)

Q- why is U.K. and Ireland (which i assumes goes along with UK policy as a practical measure) the only countries of dozens in western Europe not in the Schengen Accords, which eased border formalities amongst european 'Schengen' countries - meant to ease the free passage of goods and citizens between European countries.

Travelers on the Continent are no longer usually inconvnienced by border controls - but entering the U.K. means to fill out a Landing Card (soon to be replaced by a 150 question form!) and then perhaps lines, at airports often very long, to pass thru intra-European Customs.

Why not the U.K. in Schengen? Why the difference?

Is there any move towards entering?

Wikipedia mentions what I have always heard as the reason why the UK hasnt signed - recluctance to give up its own border controls:

The United Kingdom and Ireland are the only two EU members to not have signed the Schengen Agreement: both have an opt-out from the agreement. The two countries share a Common Travel Area with no border controls. Ireland is thus unable to join the agreement without dissolving this agreement with the UK, and thus incurring border controls at its land border with Northern Ireland. However, the UK remains reluctant to surrender its own border controls and work permit system. Therefore, UK and Ireland are signatories of the Council Decision covering police co-operation, but not of the Council Regulations covering asylum, visas and border controls.

The reluctance of the UK government to join the agreement has been criticised by some, such as the House of Lords, for, seemingly paradoxically, hampering the fight against cross-border crime. This is due to the inability of the UK to access the Schengen Information System, which contains data, among else, on undesirables.]

In October 2007, the UK Government announced plans to introduce an electronic border control system by 2009. This led to speculation that the Common Travel Area would end.[6] However in response to a question on the issue, the Irish Taoiseach (i.e. Prime Minister) stated "On the question of whether this is the end of the common travel area and should we join Schengen, the answer is 'no'."

The powers-that-be don't trust the other Schengen countries' controls; or rather, they don't think it's worth the fuss the Europhobe press would make (e.g., "[Minister's name] surrenders - Brussels bureaucrats* to decide who gets in").

*or substitute a slighting reference to any country's police who can be hinted to be variously sloppy, corrupt, overbureaucratic, or whatever national stereotype they want to play up.

They don't trust immigration in the rest of the EU, as simple as that. I would suspect that some of the other countries would have opted out if it were more practical - the UK, as an island nation can do it easier than Germany.

Alongside the argument over UK's reluctance to give up its own border control, the complexity of UK immigration law must surely be a factor. With the history of the Empire and now the Commonwealth and other British involvements overseas, there exists a multitude of citizenships with varying rights of entry and residence, such as British citizen, British overseas citizen, British subject, British protected person, Commonwelth citizen with right of abode and citizenships of such places as HK, Gib, Falkands, Bermuda etc. It will be one heck of an undertaking to unravel all that to mesh with Schengen rules.

Too easy to get into Schengen as an illegal immigrant. If UK was part of Schengen then even more of those illegals would make their way to the UK (most of them try to anyway).

As it is the UK can, in theory, chuck them back into Schengen

Do a search for "sangatte refugee camp" to find out why joining Schengen would be political suicide for any UK government - it's about as likely to happen as proper gun controls in the US

Sounds more like "Outpost" instead of "Fortress" and, of course, someone always has to bring up what has or has not happened in the US for comparisons.

Most Schengen countries have very long "green" borders - there combatting cross-border crime, illegal immigration etc. can only be done by cooperation between the countries. It makes sense for Germany or France - because of the access to the databases, hot pursuit rules etc. that come with Schengen.

Since UK and Ireland are islands the access control is easier and is more of a practicable solution. But OTOH - how is the cooperation between UK and Schengen criminal databases? I don´t know.

With due respect to Dukey, there is always reluctance of super powers to join alliances - witness the US isolationist policy. Some say that without a North American union, we will never compete, in an economic sense, with the EU.

Dukey most of the people who post here are American, therefore giving them an example of something that is politically unacceptable in the US enables them to understand why Schengen is politically unacceptable to UK governments

Dukey

It would almost be like opening the border with Mexico, and letting anyone in, legal or not, travelling via Mexico.

The comparison with the US is a comparison, not a criticism.

The U.S.-Canada border is increasingly hard to cross and my also be an apt comparison

Common sense says that with NAFTA borders could be abolished and the U.S. and Canada as a whole could join forces to do exterior border checks - much like Schengen countries

Yet this would be about as palpable to American politicos worried about the common conservative complaint about U.S. yielding our powers to foreign countries.

I would think the Canadians could do as well at their entry points as we do and it makes sense, just like Schengen to abolish borders between the two countries for Customs purposes.

The current backlog at border points like Windsor-Detroit, said to be the biggest in commerce i believe, take a huge toll on businesses and have scared away folks who would and formerly did cross the border more frequently

>Some say that without a North American union, we will never compete, in an economic sense, with the EU.<

NAFTA wasn't sufficient?

((I))

"Some say that without a North American union, we will never compete, in an economic sense, with the EU."

Well, "some" are wrong. The US currently competes, as evidenced by a significantly higher GDP per capita than the EU. Indeed the GDP per capita of the US as a whole is higher than just about any country in the EU (save maybe Luxembourg and Ireland).

And California by itself i've seen ranked ahead of or at par with any EU country i believe in GNP

The US is still bigger than the EU combined.

That said, the City of London (one square mile), if it were a country, would be the seventh largest economy in the world.

What bloody fortress?

Unshackled by the xenophobic Schengen nonsense, we create our own immigrastion policy. Which benefits the world.

It means we allowed the "new" EU member states unrestricted access to jobs in Britain while every single Schengen member state except Sweden - displaying the "solidarity" (ie rampant selfishness) we expect from the most insular political institution outside the United States - threw the shutters up on the Poles et al.

Allowing mass imigration boosted our economy. Over half the jobs created in Europe since 2000 have been in Britain. For most of this decade, moving here has been the ONLY way most of Schengen's young can get a job.

And it's not just Europeans. We let aliens stay six months in Britain: the poor foreigner-frightened isolationists in the bits (ie most) of Europe that's going down the pan are petrified of letting people stay in the whole of Schengen for three months. Frightened they might introduce non-European conepts like geting off their arses and working a full week, or keeping on working past the age of 45, no doubt.

And that's not all. Our Highly Skilled Migrant Programme - which no-one else in Europe dares copy - means any non-European with a decent career and salary record can come and work here.

Inside Schengen, we'd be forced to abandon our open society and start preventing foreigners - including other EU nationals - from living and working here, the way the Germans do. Just like when we were dumb enough to join the Common Market: we were forced to stop importing food from efficient countries, and now have use our taxes to subsidise the idle French, from whom we have to buy however inefficient they are.

For the hundreds of thousands of Europeans who'd be out of a job if we'd been in Schengen, or the millions of non-European tourists who can stay here for a great deal longer than the Schengenites allow, a few minutes at a UK immigration queue is trivial.

Anyway, why queue? Sign up for the iris recognition system and you don't even need a passport to get in.

flanneur:

So in the current episode of your favorite TV show - Coronation Street - Canada - about ten months delay - the girls in the UnderWorld underwear factory have nothing to be worried about when the first foreign EU worker arrove - from Poland and is apparently working for a much lower wage than the old-timers who are afraid they will have to take a pay cut or lose their jobs?

they - a metaphor i think for many low-wage earners in UK from the proverbial Polish plumbers - will not be negatively impacted by this open door policy you trumpet

I understand the wealthier business segment of the society will greatly benefit but it's always the common blokes i more care about.

Or will they benefit from some trickle down benefit from the surge of foreign workers?

PalenQ, you watch Coronation Street? :-D

Yes it's my favorite TV show. gives me a great insight into a typical, 'real' English culture.

But they're northerners....

What is the advantage?
Most UK citizens dont travel outside the UK often, so Schengen wouldn't make things easier, unlike many EU states where people travel to work across borders daily.
Frankly having to show a passport occasionally is no big deal.
As for the supposed boost to "our" economy by bringing in cheap labour, if a boost means losing your livelihood or working for less, you can keep it.
Perhaps the "economy" referred to is the poster's own.

So...you get your insights from soap operas? That explains a lot. ;-)

Yes and the Tudors were on last night so i'm learning 'proper' English history.

Good one! That's one soap opera I will admit to watching. :-)

Whatever else you're learning from The Tudors, Pal, it's not 'proper' history. Fun, I grant you, but it's definitely more in the style of Die-nasty.

Patrick:

Yeh i know that or suspect it from reviews i've read about the Tudor soap but still it brings places i've been like Hampton Court vividly to life. As for Corrie - be sure i know that does not represent average English life.

<<< As for Corrie - be sure i know that does not represent average English life. >>>

Apart from the Devil Child it still is pretty typical of life in some areas of the UK

Especially now that Norris is no longer Prime Minister of Australia (well, have you ever seen them in the same room?).

Flanner, please wipe the froth from the corners of your mouth. It´s not an appetizing sight.

"Most UK citizens dont travel outside the UK often" - no Zippo, that's the US you are thinking of.

"some say" ...witness the US isolationist policy.

CDT (Cheap Debating Trick) Alert!

"Some say" the US isn't isolationist enough.

altamiro: flanner's froth is a permanent condition.

Flanneur brags about more jobs created in UK than all of EU or some such Blarney

but what kind of wage jobs are these?

In the U.S. there has also been many jobs created but at wages much lower than the jobs that were lost

What's good for business types is not always what's best for the average worker bloke - judging a country's fortunes by GNP and other cold financial figures is cold often - look at the average wage increase or decrease and similar with buying power

What's great for wealthy folk with investments oozing out of the arses in the Cotswolds is not always the best for working blokes in Liverpool IMO

My bottom line is very different from what flanneur's seems to be (and indeed wages and buying power may have improved and to be honest i'm judging by the similar American experience where each has declined for the average worker whilst the rich have gotten rich and the accumulation of wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer exacerbated)

New Labour perhaps is really not anymore interested in the interests of true labourers - the ones who really do the work that business types then pay themselves huge salaries (or speaking fees) to take credit for.

As for the insular nation of UK and reason for its fortress border mentality i think Italy and Spain for two have lots of coastlines and relatively short land borders

And Ireland is to be trusted to carry out the necessary scrutiny and not Italy? Last i knew the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland was totally open - indeed cows have been known to have been shifted back and forth in the past so that each country counted them for their ample EU subsidies.

I think "Yes, Minister" and "Yes, Prime Minister" offer more penetrating insights into the British bureaucratic mindset than any pap you're likely to see on ITV (even if it HAS been running for seeming centuries).

http://www.yes-minister.com

Flanner inside the EU, not just Schengen every EU citizen has the right to work and live where they please. Germany is no exception.
The Netherlands, and many other "old" EU countries have plenty of "new" EU citizens working in them, with the same problems as the UK experiences - pressure on schools, emptying of fishing lakes etc etc.
The Netherlands has never had so many people in employment, nor so many jobs available as now.
We also have more than our fair share of illegal immigrants. The UK is not the only dream destination for these people you know.

Should the rabid anti Europeans get their way and the UK leaves the EU you will see a great many jobs drainng from the UK at record speed, not to mention all the subsidies that the UK gets will vanish, financial institutions will reconsider having London as a base etc etc.

I don't agree with everything the EU decides upon, or would like to do, but I don't understand the hatred of "Europe" expressed by so many of my fellow Brits.

Oh and PalenQ the Tudors was made in Ireland in co-operation with the Canadians!

hetismij wrote: "I don't agree with everything the EU decides upon, or would like to do, but I don't understand the hatred of "Europe" expressed by so many of my fellow Brits."

It's simple, really. UK policy is determined by an Australian-born US citizen who happens to dominate popular media.

Paddy: why doesn't Ireland ditch the U.K. and join Schengen like they did the Euro Zone?

any sentiment for this?

Because then there would be border controls between Britain and Ireland, which makes things complicated.

Also, perhaps Ireland is of the same opinion as the UK, that the Schengen countries do not effectively control immigration. (?)

waring wrote: "Because then there would be border controls between Britain and Ireland, which makes things complicated."

That's the beginning and the end of the explanation.

Waring also wrote: "Also, perhaps Ireland is of the same opinion as the UK, that the Schengen countries do not effectively control immigration. (?)"

I think popular sentiment in Ireland is pro-Schengen, mainly as a matter of travel convenience but also because we tend to identify more with the EU than do British people. What our politicians believe is a mystery. We won't find out in the foreseeable future because of the importance to us of maintaining the common travel area with the UK (which is tied into the aspiration that many hold to have a united Ireland).

On 24 October 2007 it was reported that the UK intended to introduce passport checks between Britain and Ireland from 2009 onwards, as part of a proposed electronic border control system, thus putting the future of the Common Travel Area in doubt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_...ture_prospects