Fork tines down, point with thumb...what other cultural differences do I need to know?
 

Ok, I am not trying to "not look like a tourist" BUT..when in Rome ...one should make an effort to be Roman!(or French in this case) What else do I need to know???

My secret: I never tried not to look like a tourist. The simple fact is that you can't.

So learn a few basic elements of etiquette (such as <i>bonjour</i> in France), learn and use a few simple phrases, and relax.

Oh - and behave yourself.

artlvr, eat the way you usually do at a restaurant. If you must, watch the locals while you are dining and copy how they eat. But why?

You need to know that when those people come over HERE they aren't so ashamed, or whatever it is, of things such as their eating style that they try to change it.

In fact when they find out you are trying to &quot;eat like they do&quot; they may even start laughing.

It depends from country to country in Europe and is quite complicated.

There are in fact two ways of eating in France. The normal continental way is
- knife in right hand, fork in left hand. Eat food with fork still in left hand- tines curving downward. Hands always visible above the table and no elbows.

However, an alternative French method is in fact little bit like the American way - albeit a lot slower and a lot less...This is favoured by more bourgeois members of society - where as in America, after cutting your food, you switch the fork to your right hand, place your knife on the plate, spear a piece of food, and then eat it. There are subtle differences in this style of eating - that I wont go into here.

I would stick to the more straightforward continental style.

Also - don't cut bread or lettuce.

But you don't have to listen to me - apparantly the advice here generally is - &quot;do whatever you are most comfortable with, money is never refused....&quot;

There is a wonderful &quot;guess the etiquette&quot; challenge offered in France.

It used to be the custom that one retained the same cutlery from entr&eacute;e to main course, so after finishing the entr&eacute;e one put them on the table beside the plate (after wiping them with bread to avoid staining the tablecloth). If you left them on the plate, the server would remove them and place them on the table. That is changing, and now many restaurants change cutlery after each course. So the challenge is to judge whether to place knife and fork on the plate or on the table. I think it's about 50:50 at the moment, and I almost always guess the wrong way.

If you dine in a French home, expect to retain your cutlery.

Fun in the morning. I tried chopsticks, I managed to get a bit of rice between them and conveyed to my mouth..tedious, I took up my faithful fork. Later in a Chinese restaurant in London I watched Chinese students eat rice...they used the chopsticks to rake rice from the bowl into their mouths. Some had their chins on the table and the bowl tilted toward their mouth. Very efficient. Do I now know how to eat rice in China?

&quot;If you dine in a French home, expect to retain your cutlery&quot;.

I always change the cutlery after a fish entree, using &quot;couverts &agrave; poisson&quot; which are different from regular knives and forks, and of course before cheese and for dessert.

In formal dinners the cutlery is changed after each dish.

This has got nothing to do with eating but...

since living in Europe, I now use my thumb to show &quot;number one&quot;.

This thread reminds me of a story about a royal visit to a small Canadian town, where one of the ladies who was serving said to Prince Philip, &quot;Hang onto your fork, Duke, there's pie for dessert.&quot;

The name of the town varies with the telling, so it's probably untrue, but it's a great story.

Generally in continental europe you need to keep your hands in sight and if possible elbows as well.

Not the case in UK where you keep your hands out of sight.

Seems that in olden days the hands below the table were up to naughty things.

So generally in Italy keep your hands visible.

In france don't take flowers to a house on the day of a party (obviously she has already chosen her flowers for today so yours suggest incompetence) send the flowers the next day to say thank you

Pvoyageuse wrote: &quot;I always change the cutlery after a fish entree&quot;

I was avoiding stating what I saw as obvious!

&quot;point with thumb&quot; / &quot;since living in Europe, I now use my thumb to show &quot;number one&quot;.&quot;

I thought I'd read on a previous Fodor's thread that this was the American way ? I've never seen it anywhere.

Hi Caroline:

In the states, I always used my forefinger. In Switzerland, all I saw were thumbs. Gave a whole new dimension to &quot;thumbs up.&quot;

&quot;Hang onto your fork, Duke, there's pie for dessert.&quot;

This would never happen in France. All desserts are eaten with a spoon.

Showing the thumb for the number one is probably less important than the way to show the number two. The number two in France is shown with the first finger and the thumb as in &quot;Two beers please&quot;.
In North America we use the first and second finger thrust upwards. This seems to have another meaning in Europe especially if done with a snarl on your face.

Thanks to all for the info-
Dukey-I am not ashamed of being American, I just believe one should try to imitate ;to some degree. the culture around them. There were good answers here. Don't worry Robespierre, I always have a wonderful time in Europe!!! I think America has lost too much etiquette and manners and try to be sensitive to this as I travel.

Hi Art,
&gt;...etiquette and manners and try to be sensitive to this as I travel.

Do not point your forefinger at someone's face unless you wish to start a fight.

Don't touch the merchandise. The shop assistant will get it for you.

Take off your hat in a church, put it on in a synagogue.

Keep to the right on sidewalks and escalators.

((I))

Artlvr,

Thank you very much for your explanation of why you are chossing to do as you do. It wasn't the least bit necessary but bthanks nonetheless.

I am sorry if I offended you in any way whatsoever by implying that the reason you have decided to change your style of eating was because you might be ashamed of it.

I hope you have a wonderful trip.

No offense taken Dukey! I value yours and Ira's and many others opinions on this board.LOL! Ira-point well taken as to not touching items in a store! I learned that one the hard way years ago in Italy! Also learned NEVER to touch produce at an outdoor market!!! They will ask you how soon it will be used and for what and will then pick what is best for your circumstances. Thanks to all. I leave the 27th.

Ira - your &quot;tips&quot; remind me of our first trip to Paris and being on the moving sidewalks in the Metro. Everyone was saying &quot;a droite, a droite&quot; and it took us a day or so to realize that they weren't saying &quot;good morning&quot;.
Not touching the merchandise is a hard one for us as my wife likes to feel the clothes and &quot;paw through&quot; them. It has its advantages, however, when shopping at the markets the shopkeeper chooses the best fruit or vegetable for your purpose.

&quot;This would never happen in France. All desserts are eaten with a spoon&quot;.


Not necessarily. Fruits are eaten with a fork and a knife and some pastries with a fork.

Fruit is not really a dessert in France, and as for eating some pastries with a fork, why not? But a silverware set sold in France will come with dessert spoons, not dessert forks.

does this mean I should have used chopsticks in China? I don't get along well with chopsticks and used a spoon and fork. Very bad of me I suppose.

I found my Chinese hosts were very impressed to see I had mastered the 'sticks. In a business environment, every cultural plus is a benefit.

Well, I suppose if they gave you a fork and spoon they expected you to use them!

Be nice, be polite, be circumspect, and it won't matter what direction your fork is turned. Really, truly these things don't matter as long as you are polite and respectful.

No one is going to be in restaurant monitoring your eating behavior and clucking about how horrid you are. They will mind if you are talking loudly or being coarse.

The only real advice I would give Americans about eating in Europe, particularly France, is that food arrives at a slower pace.

There is at least 20 mins between courses. The bill does not arrive the minute you finish your dessert.

Don't get upset about it. Just go with the flow.

For my honeymoon I was on a Carribbean island - there were Americans and Europeans there. The food was very good - theough the Americans complained that the service was too slow and the Europeans complained that they were being rushed!

I also noticed that when you are in line, the sales person will usually not acknowledge your presence, but focus attention on the person s/he's helping. Don't fret. Soon it will be your turn for the &quot;focus&quot;.

Also, I've noticed in restaurants they will pour your wine, but never your water. As if it isn't presumptious to assume you want more wine, but rude to assume you want more water. (I'm not complaining!)

These are all excellent suggestions, but the only one that will actively piss off Europeans if you don't follow it yourself is &quot;keep to the right on sidewalks and escalators&quot;. Seriously. Keep to the right unless you're charging through. Single file, I should add; there is nothing that annoys people more than a group of three or four all facing each other in a circle, spread across the stairs, chatting away.

Other than that, your good old fashioned American politeness will do you very well, assuming you're one of the few who remember what it is. Big smile at all times, please and thank you every time (if you can't manage the local language version), and self-prepossession that never turns into arrogance, and you'll be fine. They'll know you're Americans, and they won't mind you for it.

As for eating, the only thing you need to know is to eat the way you normally do, but maybe with a little extra politeness. Stuff yer bleedin' pie hole just a little bit more slowly than you might at home. Pretend you're at your stuffy grandma's, and be on your best behavior. And remember the smile. Always the smile. Europeans have a cultural memory of Americans who smile, which will take precedence over their memories of Americans who don't if you give it a chance.

And, as in all things, be slow to take offense (and slow to give it). If you're on the constant lookout for &quot;rudeness&quot;, you'll see it everywhere, but if you think of it as increased formality, you never will.

Like artlvr in his or her original post, I find it interesting and challenging to try to get it right in a culture I visit, and would just as soon know what is expected of civilized people locally. This information was hard to find when I first moved to Paris, so, now that I have been here for awhile, I am trying to write a guide myself. Europeans are begged to correct it. They and others are invited to contribute at http://www.private-list.com/wiki/ind...nner_etiquette.

&quot; And remember the smile. Always the smile. Europeans have a cultural memory of Americans who smile, which will take precedence over their memories of Americans who don't if you give it a chance.&quot;
Are you sure you kinow what that &quot; cultural memory of Americans who smile&quot; is?

Chewing gum and silk stockings still make me nervous.

lawchick wrote: &quot;Chewing gum and silk stockings still make me nervous.&quot;

The gum bit is okay, but chewing silk stockings really unnerves me (particularly if they are full at the time).

lamer, I looked at your page, and have a couple of suggestions.

1. In many European countries, France included, bread is available with both entr&eacute;e and main course.

2. It is common in France to serve the main course from a platter on the table, with guests served first, and they may be invited to serve themselves.

I think that overall you focus on a formal style that is becoming less common.

&quot;Fruit is not really a dessert in France&quot;

Really, what is it then?
I am French and I can assure you we have more fruit than pastry at dessert at home.
It is different of course when you go to a restaurant.

&quot;and as for eating some pastries with a fork, why not? But a silverware set sold in France will come with dessert spoons, not dessert forks&quot;.

A silverware set comes with both dessert spoons (cuill&egrave;res &agrave; dessert) and dessert forks (fourchettes &agrave; dessert) and is called &quot;couverts &agrave; dessert&quot;.

You can also include dessert knifes (couteaux &agrave; dessert) but you usually buy them together with the regular knives set.

I have lived in England for over 60 years, and have never observed that the British rest their hands in their laps while eating. As children, we were always told about not resting our elbows on the table, but I do not think that taboo still applies in ordinary life. Certainly, the American habit of right hand holding the fork and left hand out of sight looks strange to our eyes, and is a topic of discussion with American visitors. What do other Brits think?

Robjame, what I mean is as simple as &quot;be the good stereotype, not the bad stereotype&quot;.

Also, (in France, at least) no bread plates. You set the uneaten portion of your piece of bread directly on the tablecloth.

Apparently the American way of eating stems from the late introduction of the fork and it is a style of eating suited to a knife and a spoon.