Well, I can certainly understand how it would be annoying for a guidebook to elimate information that you found helpful. But I really doubt it was a decision based on straight vs. gay demographics. It was more likely made based on age and income demographics, which both have to do with the internet.

The very fact that the male gay couple demographic has a higher disposable income means they are more likely to be technologically savvy with laptops and crackberries and 24 hr access to the internet and partipating in travel forums, etc.

And those young enough, or energetic or savvy enough to seek out good nightlife are also highly computer literate.

Anyone with the disposable income to travel, even if only a "once in a liftime trip", has access to a computer and the internet. The catch-all guidebook is going the way of the dodo bird.

I recently got back from Paris and all I used was a Michelin atlas for getting around, a Blue Guide for museums and sightseeing, and my own notes with info culled from the internet, primarily from right here on the fodors boards. Didn't use a fodors or frommers or lonely planet or rough guide or what have you guide book.

Who knows, maybe other stuff will be dropped from fodors books too.

i don't read fodor's as they are generally not available here.

that said, if a guidebook does not aim to cater to the gay segment (and i totally understand that there are very different kinds of gays!), then why should it bother to have little mini-sections about gay 'stuff'? to me that would just be the lip service that you describe. gays still would not like it. i don't really know fodor's guides very well but they do not really aim to cater to the gay scene (nor do they seem to cater to the young, trendy, progressive, university backpackers, green/eco travellers, and many other groups).

complaining about fodor's not being geared toward gays is a little like an old, conservative person complaining that lonely planet or Timeout is too young and hip for them.

i don't think guidebooks should be written to try to cover everyone's tastes. travel is very personal and guidebooks need to cater to certain segments of people.

I don't understand why it's the youth and budget-oriented guidebooks that list gay venues. As others have pointed out, a moneyed, middle-aged gay couple might feel like going to a gay bar, too. So I just think it's foolish of Fodor's not to do as Lonely Planet does and, at the end of a list of 5 or 6 bars, list one or two specifically gay clubs. It wouldn't take much space, and there seems to be a desire for it. I, too, like a comprehensive guide to thrown in my suitcase. I like the web for filling in the gaps.

What a hoot!

I think somebody needs a good one and it isn't a guidebook!

I don't know what happens when you delete your account on Fodor's. There was, however, an article in NYT on how difficult it is to delete your account on Facebook. After the article appeared, Facebook, I think, started to make deletion easier. But it prompted one of my friends to delete his account immediately. I found that amusing, but his words were something like -- I'd better delete now -- there's something fishy when a website makes it so difficult to delete your accounts.

In any case, I doubt that deletion will make all of what you ever wrote disappear. However, that's not the point anyway. It's still entirely plausible that someone may want to delete for whatever reason -- or just assume that deletion gets rid of all prior posts.

I was quite shocked that my Facebook profile appeared in a net search, but I guess I shouldn't be. So right afterwards, I reset my privacy options on Facebook.

Of course, by now you'll probably know that what you write on Fodor's is actually searchable by the internet. This probably isn't a major concern, but if your name is out there and mentioned on Fodor's, and by judicious searching, someone could certainly pull up a lot of info about you (if you happen to post a lot).

Thus I certainly have a lot of respect for privacy, as I realize that the net is not such a benign place.

And by the way, I also agree that there's a lot of information on the web out there about all sorts of special topics. That's also why I don't use guidebooks much these days -- or prefer those that give me a different angle. Certainly I supplement guidebooks with research elsewhere.

However, sometimes you still need to start from a book, and some people prefer to start that way. I can understand the poster's "complaint," but I'm not sure if that makes Fodor's anti-gay.

In any case, a huge disadvantage about the WWW is the lack of a convenient index. If you know what you're looking for and know how to search cleverly, that's great. But not all people have the time or patience to rely on the web solely either.

<All this leads the average homosexual to ask: Where can I go on holiday where I am welcome?>

Funny, Thin doesn't seem to have a problem and travels extensively. Likewise (he's hardly average) my handsome nephew seems able to leave his house and reach his destination without a guide book with specific info for gays!

BTW - the talented Proenza Preschooler is not the only one to recognize the literary reference in your screen name. Patricia Highsmith’s books are very popular and at least two movies have been made based upon her Tom Ripley books.

I do not, however, have any clue if there is a literary reference to the name Proenza Preschooler, but I like it.

JanisJ wrote "If so, then you are either a coward and changed your screen name to post this - OR - you are not telling the truth about being a member for "some time".
Sounds very harsh, Janis. Why are you so quick to criticize others? I find your tome appaulling.

STFC wrote "There seems to be one of these ludicrous threads each weekend. You're not travelme in disguise are you?"

Certainly not, STFC. What's your problem?

I am not gay but I am always suspicious of mainstream books proposing ideas for any one group. Did they hire someone to scope out what would be appropriate for that group? I read Time Out NY weekly and use there travel guides and know they are tuned into many communities including the gay community. They have a history and avowed gay staff members, that would make a difference.

Like every family we have our gay members and friends and they are varied in age, incomes, and interests, so I do not how a general guidebook would make recommednations.

Aduchamp, because some places advertize as being gay friendly. This is good to know if staying at a B&B or a small inn. It seems reasonable that people would want to seek this information.

The problem with Facebook is, even after you completely delete your account every single bit of information still exists and is kept by Facebook. So that stuff is always "out there" even if you think it's been erased.

111op, I'm like your paranoid friend only worse because I'm a luddite and never made an account with facebook in the first place because it seemed fishy to me from day one, lol.

I'm confused. Did tomripley become travelme right before our eyes? Or is travelme just speaking for tomripley?

No, Patrick. Tom is too good of a speller and takes the time to edit properly.
I agree that the title of this post could have been phrased differently. However, I am not Tom.

Duh. I'll put my glasses back on. I missed that the one comment was "you're not travelme in disquise" -- I thought it was simply "you're not in disquise" or something like that, and I couldn't figure out how you knew he wasn't! But you would know he isn't you!

Some good and some not so good comments since I left. I’m off again. One quick point: Giovanna wrote: “Likewise (he's hardly average) my handsome nephew seems able to leave his house and reach his destination without a guide book with specific info for gays!”

All I have to say is: May I have his number?


I'm off again.

The Talented Mr. Ripley (of 4 movies, to be exact)

PS I'm not paranoid - everyone else is just plotting against me.

OKAY - So I pulled out the few old Fodors guides I had and looked at the "Smart Travel Tips" sections. The guides are a 2001 Switzerland and 2004 Paris. Both of them have sections on:

Gay & Lesbian Travel
Children in ___ (name of the destination)
Senior-Citizen Travel
Disabilities & Accessibility

Now I look at the Fodors 2007 England which I borrowed from the library.

Under the Smart Travel Tips, not only there isn't the G&L Travel, they also got rid of the Children section, the Senior Citizen Travel, as well as the Disabilities section.

Based on your theory, Tom Ripley, does that mean Fodors is also

anti-children?
anti-senior citizens?
anti-disabled persons?

To me, it seems like it's a decision on Fodors part to NOT dedicate a specific section anymore to these travelers subgroups.

I just want to know that I will be welcomed, and relatively safe. Some places are not welcoming, some places are definitely not safe for same-sex couples.

Please - This is an obvious attempt to stir the pot over a non-issue. In my book that's the definition of a "troll". If you're a gay dude with a companion, what can a guidebook tell you? If you're single, ask any cab driver where the gay pickup spots are. I don't look in a guidebook if I'm seeking a hooker or nudie bar.

I'm not of your persuasion but I kind of think that we both can appreciate the same buildings, statues, battlefields, castles, shops,restaurants, hotels, etc. Is there a gay way of viewing things that only a gay-oriented guidebook can point out? Heteros don't need special instructions about where they need to be to enjoy Europe.



STFC said it best. I'm getting more than a little fed up with all the "victims" of this world. Everybody seems to want pity. How about those of us with big noses and bald heads? Please feel sorry for us and change the universe to accomodate us.

>>>>>
I just want to know that I will be welcomed, and relatively safe. Some places are not welcoming, some places are definitely not safe for same-sex couples.
>>>>>

i don't think anybody thinks that there is not a need for this information. it's just not realistic to think that all guidebooks (esp ones like fodor's who cater to older conservative travellers) would provide such info.

many restaurants and smaller hotels are also not welcoming to people with children. while some provide info on how welcoming to children they are, not all do...and it is unrealistic to think that guidebooks that do not try to cater to families would make a huge effort to provide this info.