Too true kisemetchimera! Seems to be too few manners in so many people. What is in it for ME, seems to be the norm now. Judy :-(

I think Jengray did fine!! I see the the complaining wine drinker as the rude person (don't get me wrong I love my wine, but when someone reclines I just grab my glass, flip my tray back up, and hold it).

It's a plane, it's a free-for-all, and the seats recline... each person gets to do what they want, when they want (although reclining during meal service is pretty inconsiderate!).

To the one poster who complained about people reading on overnight flights - have sympathy !! some of us cannot sleep on flights. I am completely envious as I glance around a cabin of snoring and sacked out passengers getting a bit of rest.

Maira,

Thanks for that link to the picture which illustrates exactly what I meant. Reclining a seat does not shift the position of a tray table. If it did, "Knee Defenders" would not function the way they do.

The passenger behind jengray did not make any reference to encroaching her "knee space".

I do not have long legs; since there are a considerable number of people 6-12 inches taller than me (I am 5'8"), I would not doubt that their femur length is 3-6" greater than mine.

Those passengers could easily argue that they "deserve" additional consideration, in the matter of reclining seats.

There are other kinds of "seating disabilities", including obesity (not so rare), full-length-leg immobilization (rare) or total knee ankylosis (very rare). I know about the latter first-hand, based on someone I am very close to.

I suspect that airlines and travelers alike are usually successful with a strategy of "first... be considerate".

The passenger who was pushy for more space "to enjoy my wine without it in my face" was far less considerate than jengray, in my opinion.

It is interesting that some who wish to fully recline define etiquette as the right to do so but consider it unetiquettical* if other passengers keep a light on for reading or even to converse.

It also sounds from some that we should all travel with a lawyer so we can insist on our rights.

NYCFS, consideration of others shouldn't be optional or we wouldn't be civilized and I would never expect anything less of you. We don't have to acquiesce to the crude and rude though.

*new word - copyrighted

Some people just love to play "martyr" even when it's for a silly cause.

Coach Class passengers, who think that the person in front of them should NOT recline during an overnight flight, are the true self-righteous, self-centered, and inconsiderate members of society. Even though Patrick didn't write his point well, he is absolutely correct.

Many people in Coach aren't on vacation. They're often traveling for business and their business can't afford Business Class seats. When I traveled with a famous singer, we often missed a night's sleep because the schedule got insane. Many band members relied on their flight to catch up on lost sleep (and we're not talking overnight flights).

So, the truly "considerate" thing to do, before you so-called "considerates" continue to judge and throw stones, is to bear in mind that other people aren't living the same life as yourself and everybody has their own needs. A Coach Class ticket doesn't make your life any more important than the passenger in front of you who wishes to recline. Remember, you're free to recline, too, unless you're the unfortunate one in the last row of Coach.

I agree with not flinging your seat back in one swoop into the person's face behind you. It is much more mannerly to edge it down a little at a time to give the person a chance to rearrange things on the tray, her knees, etc.

I can take it better if the person in front of me does this or just acknowledges in some way that I am there and have some rights too.

I have even turned off my light for an hour or so if I know that it is bothering someone, we are all in that flying metal tube together so "can't we all just get along?"

Nobody suggested that anyone lack civility. Richard offered an excellent example of how considerate people deal with reclining Coach seats.

Well, I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my flight picking out shards of plastic wine glass from my mouth either.

Hi

I am a member of Richard's club.

Hope I get someone like Maria or kismetchimera in front of me next time I get to travel!

There are no rules in this.

You either consider other people or you don't. In deciding which camp you're in, it's irrelevant what the jerk in front of you does. Your obligation (if you're a civilsed person) or non-obligation (if you're a selfish git) is confined to the person behind you.

Richard's guidelines should be printed on every plane, and included in the pre-flight briefing instead of all that useless stuff abourt lifejackets. But I'd also suggest you just check with the person behind you before reclining. Not to ask their permission, but to warn - and to ensure you're not causing inconvenience a 2 minute wait might avoid.

Apart from anything else, you've absolutely no idea what might happen in the next 8 hours that will require your getting cooperation from the person whose new dress you've just covered in wine.

Attacking people for being rude might at least appear to save one's own reputation, but it won't solve a problem or mediate a conflict of interest. Rare has been the time when I've seen a person respond to such an attack with an apology and an act of contrition. More is the time when I've seen the situation deteriorate. 'You should be considerate' hardly mediates a situation wherein what ought to be considered is frequently the source of the dispute in the first place. As for Richard's rules, I applaud him for a good first try. However, people are served drinks outside of meal times, so it can be assumed that this problem could have surfaced outside of those times. So the problem remains.

We can only respond to the problem as given. We are on an airplane, which is primarily designed to get people from point a to point b. Although it is used for sleeping and eating and drinking, it isn't ideally designed for any of these activities. Worse yet, at the best of times eating and resting are incompatible activities; reclining while drinking could mean choking, while trying to rest in a straight-backed chair is difficult if not impossible.

There are countless conflicts of interest in an airplane, and most if not all have nothing to do with the 'bad?'people not considering the 'nice' ones. For example, many people find having their headrest mauled disturbing, but so too would many people find it disturbing to try and navigate on an unstable surface when no other means of support, such as a handrail, has been provided. In these cases, the solution found is going to be the best possible, which is going to be a long way from best or even second-best.

this thread illustrates how flying can change a normally nice person into a selfish one. I can see myself on all sides of this story. I could be the one that starts this chain reaction or the woman with the wine who wants to hold onto the small bit of territory that she controls. In general flying makes me grumpy, irritable and impatient. I just want to get in and out as quickly as possible. My favorite seat assignment in near the exit of the plane. the actual exit, not emergency exit. I'm afraid that etiquette and air travel are functionally impossible to coincide.

I look at the situation in this way -- the seats recline, we all know that they do. Therefore, I am prepared to have the person in front of me recline. If they don't, I cansider myself lucky. If they do, I curse the airlines for making the whole situation so uncomfortable.

I don't take it out on the person in front of me. But, if the person behind me kicks my seat after I've reclined (slowly); then all bets are off.

We all know that the seats recline -- until the situation changes; we deal with it. Call me a pragmatist.
((c))

For the record...my comments regarding wine-on-woman and glass-in-throat were not to be taken seriously. I use this board for humor, sometimes. Very healthy.

I NEVER condone aggression, confrontation or violence, especially in public, to negotiate your way through ANY situation. Maintaining courtesy and control must be your objective at all times. There's plenty truth, action, and result behind "kill 'em with kindness." When that fails, go for the jugular (kidding again).

Maybe everyone is flying different airlines than I take. No one has ever been in my wine because they've reclined their seat and I'm not a short person.
I like Richard's rules.
As for the folks who are kept up all night because of the reading lights, we've already determined on this board that many of us do not sleep on an overnight. Bring your eye wear and earplugs so the non-sleepers can entertain themselves and do make sure to pack some tolerance. It's only overnight.

I suggest everybody fly on American or other airlines that offer more leg room in Coach! If everybody did this, then all those other stingy airlines would have to add more room!!

Honestly, it really does make a difference. I have made it my mission to only fly American whenever possible.

I bring my seat up for meal service (and of course landing/taking off); otherwise, I want it reclined and am perfectly fine about having the person in front of me reclining as well. This should not even be an issue except during meal service.

Courtesy is the key. Maira has it right.

A clown in front of me on my last transatlantic flight slammed his seat all the way back leaving me little room. He ignored my polite requests to pull his seat up just a bit. I then banged his seat and he reluctantly pulled his up a little.

The airlines are basically at fault for the sardine spacing. Impolite nerds just make it worse. Airlines should restrict the amount of space that chairs can be reclined to, to, say, halfway. If one needs a flat-out bed fly first class.

This is an annoying problem.

Anthony

Anthony, and you think banging the guy's seat in front of you is considerate??? That clown paid for his seat just like you did.

Yes, it's an annoying problem, but it's only going to be solved when the airlines decided to treat their paying passengers like people instead of cattle.