Flight Etiquette
 

I would like your advice on a situation I encountered on an evening transatlantic flight. About 45 minutes after takeoff the gentleman in front of me fully reclined his seat and I decided to relax for the long haul and did the same. The woman behind me didn?t want me to put my seat back because she felt my seat was ?in her face?. When I tried to recline my seat she tried to push my seat forward. I asked her if she wanted to trade seats, pointing out that since the flight departed at 8:30pm I was planning on sleeping so I could be rested when we landed. She replied, ?No! I just want to enjoy my wine without it in my face!? I pointed out that we were in coach, no one has a lot of space and she could either swap seats with me or deal with my reclined seat. She didn?t reply. I reclined and went to sleep. Just curious, how would you have handled the situation?

I never fully recline my seat during short flights, but on an evening transatlantic is it unreasonable?

I think you handled it perfectly. Anyone who takes an overnight flight to Europe has no reason to expect to sit up comfortably and not let others recline to sleep.
If she had persisted, I would have called the attendant and asked if it was true that you are not allowed to recline and sleep on the flight.

As the woman, i.e. the reclinee, I suppose I might have asked the recliner to postpone reclining for ten minutes until I'd finished my glass of wine. As the recliner, I might have said "I'm interested in hearing your concerns, and if it helps, I'll postpone reclining my seat for ten minutes." Note that I'd offer this only to satisfy my own need to negotiate, not to try and win her approval or mollification (which likely could be impossible.)

If the reclinee continued to make a fuss, I'd say, with all sincerity, "If you feel I am misusing airline equipment by reclining my seat, I urge you to take up the matter immediately with the FA, since I passionately believe that passengers should not abuse airline equipment." Given that the airline has installed reclinable seats, it is difficult to argue that to use them as designed is an abuse of the EQUIPMENT. Note that this circumvents the more tricky question as to whether the occupiers of the equipment (recliner or reclinee) are being abused by the seat either not being reclined, or reclined, as the case may be.

I dont agree with that..You should give some consideration to the people behind you also.
It is hard and uncomfortable flying in coach without having the people in front ,like the lady said:"without having the sit on her face".

Not everyone is lucky enough to sleep in an international flight..

I think you handled that with such diplomacy!
I wholeheartedly agree with Patrick! As an overnight flier, I have had waaay too many nights of trying desperately to sleep while the wide awake sitting behind me, keep their lights on and talk full volume until we land..
Aahh for the good old days when more people had an idea of what "etiquette" was!

I agree with Patrick, you handled it correctly. In a recent thread, I commented that I think it is rude when in coach someone just reclines their seat without looking to see who's behind them and without regard to whether they jam it into someone's knees. But on an evening transatlantic flight, you should certainly expect that people will (and have every right to) recline, try to get as comfortable as possible and sleep. If she didn't want a seat in her face on an overnight flight, she should have sprung for the extra bucks for business class.

It wouldn't have mattered if she had changed seats with you as she would be in the same predicament there. You stated that the gentleman in front of you was also fully reclined. Its a difficult situation as I have been on the receiving end of people fully reclining in front of me and being forced to be uncomfortable the entire flight. When you are tall its even worse. I guess its your right to recline, but I defintely feel for the woman behind you. I usually don't recline (maybe part way - but not fully) if someone is behind me and I appreciate it when the person in front of me does the same. Its uncomfortable enough for all of us back there. Wish we all had the bucks to fly first class or the airlines would give us all a few more inches back in coach. Its a loose loose situation.

I agree with the previous poster; this is a loose-loose situation. As a courtesy, I don't fully reclined ny seat on transatlantic flights. A fully reclined seat doesn't seem to make much of a difference for my comfort, but it makes a big difference for the passenger behind me. Therefore, I tilted just a bit and make due. On our latest trip back from Paris, the young lady in front of me reclined all the way and then gave me dirty looks when I grabbed on to the seat to stand up; like I had a choice the way her seat was on my face. This is a matter of making the best of a bad situation, not only for you, but for a fellow passenger. By the way, I have only seen a flight attendant intervened once. On that ocassion, she asked the passenger to straightened the seat so a window passenger in the back seat could get through and go on to the restroom. The person was not happy; jerks abound.

Good for you Maira...we do the same

Maybe the lady should have requested a bulkhead seat. Seats only recline a few inches so I can't imagine that it would make a difference to partially recline or fully recline. It's really the airline's fault for cramming everyone in like sardines.

I defy anyone to document, with a photograph, a seat where the position of the seat back has any influence of the POSITION of the tray table available to the passenge seated behind it. Tray tables are attached down at the "hinge" angle, between the seat and its seatback.

While it is true that a seatback "infringes" on the "airspace over" a tray table, the tray table's position does not move when a seat in front of it is reclined. Given that wine (all beverages?) would typically be served in short squatty, little plastic cups, I am having trouble picturing how this would cause any problem with setting the cup there, and probably not even the short individual-sized wine bottle it came in.

I think that jengray exhibited exemplary etiquette. I think that when the woman behind her "tried to push her seat forward", there was plenty of cause to ask airline staff to have this very rude behavior curbed or reprimanded.

Airline seats recline with good reason - - they are more comfortable for extended "resting" or sleeping; they are engineered to take into consideration whose "personal space" is affected. Except when you are directed otherwise by airline staff, reclining your seat is neither rude nor presumptuous, and the space it occupies is part of the space provided to you when you bought and paid for your seat.

Best wishes,

Rex

Coach passengers want it all and, when some don't get it, they can get pretty ugly. As long as the airline offers seats that fully recline, you have every right to recline them fully, no matter what time of day. Consideration of the person sitting behind you is OPTIONAL, it does not automatically come with the price of a Coach Class ticket.

Frankly, I thought you handled the situation nicely. Depending on my mood, that woman behind you could have been wearing her wine with the glass shoved down her throat. Now you know why I spend more or Business. It keeps me out of trouble.

Depending on the aircraft, there are certain seats that create greater or lesser degrees of difficulty. In some seats, you may not be able to stow your tray table if the person in front of you is fully reclined. I look for seats that minimize the amount of inconvience that I can cause to others and vice versa. That said, SOMEBODY is going to have to sit in those other seats and a little consideration goes a long way. Some people are just plain rude and it manifests itself in many ways; from hogging overhead bin space to reclining during meal times even when they are awake, grabbing every seat back on their way up and down the aisles, loud talking, banging everyone with their baggage while boarding and in a host of other ways.

Recently, I saw a fellow who was going to teach his son how to be nobody's fool by occupying a seat that wasn't his, spreading out tons of stuff in the empty seat next to him and hassling the flight attendant for an upgrade every five minutes. It was a real pleasure when the person with the correct seat number showed up and the FA gave this pair a firm come-uppance that literally resulted in them being put in back their place(s).

As for the original poster, I think the situation was handled quite correctly. It definitely was a lose-lose situation and there is nothing that says a polite person must always be the one who gives in when that happens. A compromise was offered and even though a perfect solution was not available, that was all that could be done.

Rex--- reagarding your post, check the site for Knee Defenders, a product designed for the tall man flying behind an agressive seat recliner: http://www.kneedefender.com/html2/how_to.htm

From this website:
"The right to recline my seat ends where the other man's knees begins."

- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
U.S. Supreme Court Justice

(Joke; actual quote: "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.")

Let's get real and try to play nice, shall we? :-D

I follow 2 rules of etiquette:
1. Don't recline your seat during meal service.
2. Slowly recline your seat, don't push the button and go crashing back.

I think it should be regulated that airlines have at least a 38" minimum seat pitch. This would raise fares, and that would hurt some travelers, but it would also reduce the overcrowding at the airports, and reduce the schoolyard antics that are caused when a passenger dares to recline a reclinable seat.

Whatever happened to consideration for other people?

seats on planes recline so that people can sleep. overnight flights are designed for people to sleep. why in the world would anyone think that a person who wants to sit up all night is more important than someone who wants to sleep all night?

I agree with Maira...When I travel I ALWAYS Remember that There Are People Behind ME...

As to Travel First class....If I could afford I would be the first ONE in line...

A little bit a Courtesy toward other people ,DOES NOT HURT ANYONE...is FREE, and it comes with Having Good MANNERS..

I guess I'm really confused here. I think I am a very mannerly person. But why do some people think it is bad manners for a person to want to recline and sleep on an overnight flight, but NOT think it's bad manners for a person to demand that the person in front of them can't be comfortable? Why is it considered bad for a person in front to make the person behind uncomfortable, but it is perfectly acceptable for the person in back to make the person in front of them uncomfortable? What makes the person who insists on sitting up right, and the person who wants to recline wrong? Especially when this is an overnight flight and I'm assuming dinner is over.

Too true kisemetchimera! Seems to be too few manners in so many people. What is in it for ME, seems to be the norm now. Judy :-(

I think Jengray did fine!! I see the the complaining wine drinker as the rude person (don't get me wrong I love my wine, but when someone reclines I just grab my glass, flip my tray back up, and hold it).

It's a plane, it's a free-for-all, and the seats recline... each person gets to do what they want, when they want (although reclining during meal service is pretty inconsiderate!).

To the one poster who complained about people reading on overnight flights - have sympathy !! some of us cannot sleep on flights. I am completely envious as I glance around a cabin of snoring and sacked out passengers getting a bit of rest.

Maira,

Thanks for that link to the picture which illustrates exactly what I meant. Reclining a seat does not shift the position of a tray table. If it did, "Knee Defenders" would not function the way they do.

The passenger behind jengray did not make any reference to encroaching her "knee space".

I do not have long legs; since there are a considerable number of people 6-12 inches taller than me (I am 5'8"), I would not doubt that their femur length is 3-6" greater than mine.

Those passengers could easily argue that they "deserve" additional consideration, in the matter of reclining seats.

There are other kinds of "seating disabilities", including obesity (not so rare), full-length-leg immobilization (rare) or total knee ankylosis (very rare). I know about the latter first-hand, based on someone I am very close to.

I suspect that airlines and travelers alike are usually successful with a strategy of "first... be considerate".

The passenger who was pushy for more space "to enjoy my wine without it in my face" was far less considerate than jengray, in my opinion.

It is interesting that some who wish to fully recline define etiquette as the right to do so but consider it unetiquettical* if other passengers keep a light on for reading or even to converse.

It also sounds from some that we should all travel with a lawyer so we can insist on our rights.

NYCFS, consideration of others shouldn't be optional or we wouldn't be civilized and I would never expect anything less of you. We don't have to acquiesce to the crude and rude though.

*new word - copyrighted

Some people just love to play "martyr" even when it's for a silly cause.

Coach Class passengers, who think that the person in front of them should NOT recline during an overnight flight, are the true self-righteous, self-centered, and inconsiderate members of society. Even though Patrick didn't write his point well, he is absolutely correct.

Many people in Coach aren't on vacation. They're often traveling for business and their business can't afford Business Class seats. When I traveled with a famous singer, we often missed a night's sleep because the schedule got insane. Many band members relied on their flight to catch up on lost sleep (and we're not talking overnight flights).

So, the truly "considerate" thing to do, before you so-called "considerates" continue to judge and throw stones, is to bear in mind that other people aren't living the same life as yourself and everybody has their own needs. A Coach Class ticket doesn't make your life any more important than the passenger in front of you who wishes to recline. Remember, you're free to recline, too, unless you're the unfortunate one in the last row of Coach.

I agree with not flinging your seat back in one swoop into the person's face behind you. It is much more mannerly to edge it down a little at a time to give the person a chance to rearrange things on the tray, her knees, etc.

I can take it better if the person in front of me does this or just acknowledges in some way that I am there and have some rights too.

I have even turned off my light for an hour or so if I know that it is bothering someone, we are all in that flying metal tube together so "can't we all just get along?"

Nobody suggested that anyone lack civility. Richard offered an excellent example of how considerate people deal with reclining Coach seats.

Well, I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my flight picking out shards of plastic wine glass from my mouth either.

Hi

I am a member of Richard's club.

Hope I get someone like Maria or kismetchimera in front of me next time I get to travel!

There are no rules in this.

You either consider other people or you don't. In deciding which camp you're in, it's irrelevant what the jerk in front of you does. Your obligation (if you're a civilsed person) or non-obligation (if you're a selfish git) is confined to the person behind you.

Richard's guidelines should be printed on every plane, and included in the pre-flight briefing instead of all that useless stuff abourt lifejackets. But I'd also suggest you just check with the person behind you before reclining. Not to ask their permission, but to warn - and to ensure you're not causing inconvenience a 2 minute wait might avoid.

Apart from anything else, you've absolutely no idea what might happen in the next 8 hours that will require your getting cooperation from the person whose new dress you've just covered in wine.

Attacking people for being rude might at least appear to save one's own reputation, but it won't solve a problem or mediate a conflict of interest. Rare has been the time when I've seen a person respond to such an attack with an apology and an act of contrition. More is the time when I've seen the situation deteriorate. 'You should be considerate' hardly mediates a situation wherein what ought to be considered is frequently the source of the dispute in the first place. As for Richard's rules, I applaud him for a good first try. However, people are served drinks outside of meal times, so it can be assumed that this problem could have surfaced outside of those times. So the problem remains.

We can only respond to the problem as given. We are on an airplane, which is primarily designed to get people from point a to point b. Although it is used for sleeping and eating and drinking, it isn't ideally designed for any of these activities. Worse yet, at the best of times eating and resting are incompatible activities; reclining while drinking could mean choking, while trying to rest in a straight-backed chair is difficult if not impossible.

There are countless conflicts of interest in an airplane, and most if not all have nothing to do with the 'bad?'people not considering the 'nice' ones. For example, many people find having their headrest mauled disturbing, but so too would many people find it disturbing to try and navigate on an unstable surface when no other means of support, such as a handrail, has been provided. In these cases, the solution found is going to be the best possible, which is going to be a long way from best or even second-best.

this thread illustrates how flying can change a normally nice person into a selfish one. I can see myself on all sides of this story. I could be the one that starts this chain reaction or the woman with the wine who wants to hold onto the small bit of territory that she controls. In general flying makes me grumpy, irritable and impatient. I just want to get in and out as quickly as possible. My favorite seat assignment in near the exit of the plane. the actual exit, not emergency exit. I'm afraid that etiquette and air travel are functionally impossible to coincide.

I look at the situation in this way -- the seats recline, we all know that they do. Therefore, I am prepared to have the person in front of me recline. If they don't, I cansider myself lucky. If they do, I curse the airlines for making the whole situation so uncomfortable.

I don't take it out on the person in front of me. But, if the person behind me kicks my seat after I've reclined (slowly); then all bets are off.

We all know that the seats recline -- until the situation changes; we deal with it. Call me a pragmatist.
((c))

For the record...my comments regarding wine-on-woman and glass-in-throat were not to be taken seriously. I use this board for humor, sometimes. Very healthy.

I NEVER condone aggression, confrontation or violence, especially in public, to negotiate your way through ANY situation. Maintaining courtesy and control must be your objective at all times. There's plenty truth, action, and result behind "kill 'em with kindness." When that fails, go for the jugular (kidding again).

Maybe everyone is flying different airlines than I take. No one has ever been in my wine because they've reclined their seat and I'm not a short person.
I like Richard's rules.
As for the folks who are kept up all night because of the reading lights, we've already determined on this board that many of us do not sleep on an overnight. Bring your eye wear and earplugs so the non-sleepers can entertain themselves and do make sure to pack some tolerance. It's only overnight.

I suggest everybody fly on American or other airlines that offer more leg room in Coach! If everybody did this, then all those other stingy airlines would have to add more room!!

Honestly, it really does make a difference. I have made it my mission to only fly American whenever possible.

I bring my seat up for meal service (and of course landing/taking off); otherwise, I want it reclined and am perfectly fine about having the person in front of me reclining as well. This should not even be an issue except during meal service.

Courtesy is the key. Maira has it right.

A clown in front of me on my last transatlantic flight slammed his seat all the way back leaving me little room. He ignored my polite requests to pull his seat up just a bit. I then banged his seat and he reluctantly pulled his up a little.

The airlines are basically at fault for the sardine spacing. Impolite nerds just make it worse. Airlines should restrict the amount of space that chairs can be reclined to, to, say, halfway. If one needs a flat-out bed fly first class.

This is an annoying problem.

Anthony

Anthony, and you think banging the guy's seat in front of you is considerate??? That clown paid for his seat just like you did.

Yes, it's an annoying problem, but it's only going to be solved when the airlines decided to treat their paying passengers like people instead of cattle.