fine dining with infant
 

We are planning a trip to england/scotland next month with our 4-month old baby.
We love great food and restaurant research
and reservations are usually a big part of
our vacation planning.
But now with a baby, I am not sure how to
identify great restaurants that also allow (quiet!) infants in the dining area!
Any recommendations?
We will be visiting London, Cotswolds, the Lake District and Edinburgh.

I really couldn't recommend any but sugguest you re-think the idea of a "quiet" infant in a very nice restaurant. First, you cannot guarantee an infant will remain quiet, can you? Second, if you are used to dining in fine restaurants, you might think about the ambience -- for me, even if children are relatively quiet in restaurants, it's not the ambience or experience I want when I dine in a fine restaurant in the evening. It reminds me of being in a nursery school.

Perhaps you used the wrong words, because to me the term "fine dining" means something specific regarding a type of restaurant. I think you could find good restaurants with good food that would allow that, of course. How exactly to you plan to ensure that your infant is quiet?

Premal, why not think about skipping the Fine Dining experience in Restaurants and put the money saved towards staying in a 4 star Hotel or better with the best gourmet room service reputation. This opption might offer you and yours peaceful elegance and freedom for your infant to be put to bed when necessary.
Please don't ask about taking the baby to the Theater. It would be difficult for many of us to respond to "infant at theater inquiries" without being judgemental and sarcastic.
Emily

You are right - fine dining as in Michelin 3*s with dress code is certainly not an option anymore. Now I am just looking for places with great food that dont mind babies..

We have been taking our little girl to nice restaurants in San Francisco since she was 10 days old.. These are places that are more on the lively/energetic side (as compared to quiet/formal) where the baby sounds dont stand out over ambient noise but they are still great dining experiences.(ofcourse, if she starts crying, we have a problem, but luckily she is a happy baby who has always been fine as long as she is well fed!).

As a local, I know they exist in San Francisco and I am sure they do in England as well. But I just dont know
how to find them remotely. Travel guides talk about fine dining and also about family friendly places. But neither quite captures this category in between.

hum...

I'm afraid in the nex 18 years you're not going to enjoy restaurant research and reservations... eh eh eh

:-P

Ricardo Correia Duarte
Porto, Portugal
http://pwp.netcabo.pt/ricardo-duarte

Premal-

I , for one, am one of those people,who when having a fine dining ( and expensive) experience,do not want to see nor hear an infant...I love baies, but in their own element....

I would hate to be in a terrific restaurant with my husband and have to hear an infant cry-for no matter how short a period of time.

Infants are allowed in most chain restaurants near me- like Friday,Applebees and the such..IF I walked into Mortons and saw an infant, I would do an about face and leave.

It's not so much that the infant is there- it's just that the inpredictability of it's crying is what is the turn-off.

We spent time in the Cotswolds and Lake District in some very very fancy restaurants, and did not run into one infant...

You may need to go to some nice pubs in the area that accept kids, rather than any super plush places...

Folks - I am not trying to take a baby to a 3* place! I realize that it can turn off others who may be there for a romantic experience etc. I would hate that also..

But I find it hard to believe that it is either Applebee's or Alain Ducasse.
There must be something in between that has great food but not a formal atmosphere.

I think that people in Britain just don't take their babies everywhere with them like many do in the States. In fact, even young children tend not to be seen much in restaurants. In the US, we eat out just to eat. In Britain, eating our is more of an event - not necessarily "romantic", but definitely more adult.

While many restaurants in the UK do limit smoking,and a few don't allow it at all, you will almost certainly be exposing your baby to a lot of cigarette smoke.

I would suggest that you go through the old threads here, for Family Restaurants in London etc.
Or do a text search on dining out with babies, there has been discussion before on this subject.
We enjoy great food too, but unfortunately babies don't and they do get fussy after a while, so you might want to try more family style eateries.
Good luck!

Time Out is a great resource for London. They have both a dining and kids guide which you can order from their website.

In the last four years we've eaten at these places, thought the food was excellent, and the atmosphere welcoming to families.

Fish! County Hall (nr. the London Eye)
Assaggi (Italian) (Kensington)
Blue Elephant (Thai) (Fulham)
Browns (British) Islington but they're in other places too
Veeraswamy (Indian) (Mayfair)
New World (Chinese) especially for dim sum

There are some other "chain" type places that didn't feel prefab and had very casual atmosphere and good food. I can recommend Strata (Italian), Yo Sushi (obvious) and Nando Chickenland (Portuguese grilled chicken).

Travelling outside of London we looked for small inns and hotels which were known for fine food and called ahead to see if they welcomed infants (not all do) and if they might have baby monitors available (tho we ended up buying one). After putting the baby to sleep we had a peaceful dining experience. This worked like a dream at the Lamb Inn in Shipton-under-Wychwood and at the Golden Pheasant in Burford.

Go to Italy instead. The Italians LOVE children. A dear friend in Rome just had a boy and we did 5-star dining non-stop with baby and buggy. You would have thought my friend was Madonna with all the attention she received. I just love the Italians.

No. Absolutely not!!! Most hotels have baby sitting services, so get yourself situated with one. I couldn't imagine walking into Gordon Ramsay and asking for a baby chair. (Although I doubt they would admit an infant. Many top restaurants do not admit children under a certain age.) There are just some places you should not take infants. And as someone above stated, why would you subject your beloved snapper to the dangers of cigarette smoke in an atmosphere where others are imbibing alcoholic beverages? I wouldn't subject my dog to that, let alone my child.

You must be an American.

Oh, TG, no need to be arch.

Actually, Mr. Irish Republican Army, I think Premal is a troll. Either that, or not too bright. If you want to know if a restaurant will allow children or not all you have to do is ring them up. Blimey.

I knew there was a moderate anti child sentiment on this forum but why be so vicious?

premal, our son was four months old when we took him to the UK to be christened, so I understand where you're coming from. I can't help you with fine dining, as any recommendations I could give you would be 16 years outdated, and we did pubs anyway, but I can suggest this as a start: go to yahoo, or google, etc. and type in "travelling with children in England." You will be amazed at all the websites that come up, some of which I am sure will be helpful to you. By the way, on that particular trip we drove from London to Edinburg, Scotland, with many side trips in between. It was a marvelous trip.

premal:

As a veteran Europe traveler with kids - from infants to teens - I think I have some perspective on this, though not all that much experience in England and none in Scotland (and I do suspect that things are different there from the dining experiences we had in mainly France and Italy - folks maybe a bit more uptight about having young kids around).

You simply WILL have to abandon the concept of "fine dining" until the child is at least 8 or so, and even then only if he/she is truly well-behaved. You simply cannot expect "fine dining" establishments to admit a 4-month-old, even a sleeping one. They do wake up, you know, and if your baby is really quiet all the time, well, I suspect you need to consult a specialist, 'cause that's not at all normal.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with wanting to eat with your baby while traveling, and nothing wrong with beginning to "groom" the kid into being a good restaurant companion at an early age (though at 4 months, that's a bit of a stretch). It IS entirely possible, through years of exposure to restaurants and good manners and sitting still and conversing quietly and learning to try different foods, to end up with kids who even as young teenagers can be happily taken to "fine dining" establishments, where you will all enjoy a wonderful time and be very pleased with the results of your efforts over the years.

You're many years away from that moment, though, premal.....face it. When you have kids, things change. For the foreseeable future, you are going to have to locate places - and there are plenty of them wherever you travel - where the food is good but the level of noise is already such that a baby making a fuss isn't going to offend people. THAT's where you go to dine.

As I said, we've never been to Scotland, and by the time we traveled to England with our kids they were 10 and 13 and already schooled in eating nice meals in nice restaurants, but I can tell you we had plenty of meals in noisy bistros and trattorie - always with an outside table if weather permitted so we could make a hasty rip around the block with the stroller if the kids made any more noise than the restaurant patrons. In Paris we bribed an accordion player to sing our infant daughter to sleep at a brasserie on the Place Ecole Militaire so we could enjoy a good meal. We also used babysitters from time to time, when we were in a situation to be able to engage people we trusted - so we could go out for some "fine dining" on our own.

You'll find a way. Ask the locals. Ask at your hotel. And get used to picking up picnic materials and having them in your hotel room or in a park or playground. By the time he/she's 14 months old, or 4 years old, when you travel that's where you'll be spending most of your time anyway.

Good luck!

Our kids are now 11 and 13; personally, I thought it was easier to take them to a nice restaurant than when they were toddlers...we just basically abandoned the effort during that period. Did make use of the hotel sitter services several times in nice locales (Charleston, SC and Quebec come to mind) when they were in that toddler/little child age). Had a great experience at the White Barn Inn in Kennebunkport when kids were about 5 & 7; find early seating works better...take lots of quiet toys/books to distract them...and realize you can't linger like you would enjoy. When kids were 7 & 9, we took them to England and dined at Manoir aux Quat Saisons outside Oxford...admittedly, went for Sunday mid-day instead of evening dinner. But it was a FABULOUS experience. At the end of the meal, the children (not the grownups to my husband's dismay) were invited by the maitre d' to accompany him to the kitchen to concoct their own dessert!!! Had a great experience summer 2002 Ile Hausen (??) in Alsace but did allow our son to read a book during the dinner. Teens can be as tough as toddlers. Don't give up; you'll get to share your love of fine food before you realize it!

Why don't you just hire a babysitter through the concierge at your hotel? Most of them can organize that. Brits tend to dine, not eat, and little kids/babies aren't the norm in nice restaurants.

premal, I think that if you are prepared that you should be able to get into a majority of the restaurants. First and foremost, your baby should already be in a sleeping routine at 4 months, but that is going to be interrupted by the time difference between California and the UK/Scotland, which is either 9 or 10 hours. Before you attempt to get into the better restaurants, you'll need to get your baby to adjust to the time difference. It will probably be easier for you than your baby. Once your baby has adjusted, I suggest that you dine early in the evening when restaurants are less crowded, or else once your baby is fed and asleep for the evening. Be prepared and have a pacifier, bottle (if you don't breast feed) and diapers. I'm guessing that your stroller has a detachable seat to it that will allow you to put the cradle portion in a chair. If your baby does wake up and cry during your meal, be prepared to quickly leave the table to take the baby outside to quiet him/her down so that you don't get exasperated looks from the other diners. Crying doesn't bother me as long as the parents are attentive. Babies get lots of positive attention from strangers. I'd rather be in the company of parents that are attentive to a crying baby than parents that bring toddlers and older children to restaurants that let them run around.

Also, you might ask the hotel concierge or desk clerk of the hotels that you are staying at which restaurants are more baby friendly than others.

I know others have suggested baby sitting services, but others frown upon using them. You'll need to make a decision that you are comfortable with. If I had a child, especially a baby, I don't know if I would feel comfortable leaving the baby with a stranger for any amount of time.

Best of luck. Enjoy your adventure. You'll have your hands full.

Hi premal.

We have always taken our girls with us to very fine restaurants here in California, D.C., and England, France and Italy. Our girls have always been exposed to restaurant dinning and their manners are usually superb. Of all the places we have gone with our kids, I would have to say that London was the only city where the kids were not immediately welcomed. Fortunately, we were with a major celebrity that the restaurants trip over themselves to attract. We were not blantently snubbed. The kids behaved beautifully, but I do not think I would attempt such outtings on our own. Some of the ITalian restaurants are very good and they welcome kids.

We are so lucky in the US as restaurants often bend over backwards to accomodate wee diners. It is a tough call as I understand the apprehension of leaving your child in the care of a total stranger especially in a foreign country. I would venture out into lesser restaurants and save the gourmet excursions when you start travelling with a nanny or a relative who can watch the kids back at the hotel. Or else be prepared to get up and leave the restaurant once the baby starts crying and your meal is about to be served. Good luck. You will eventually get the hang of it.

Leslie, have you ever eaten in a restaurant in Britain? Crying babies are not going to get any positive attention from other, adult, diners.

And the time difference is 8hrs.

Barbara, I go to London every year. So, to answer your question, yes, I have eaten in many restaurants from casual to expensive in London and many other cities within Europe, the US and Canada, and infants and older children have been in these restaurants.

I don't have a phobia about children or infants, and as long as parents are attentive, I don't mind seeing them in restaurants or on airplanes. I've also been in many churches where there have been crying babies and I have never seen a parishoner cringe during a service.

I would think it would be easier to travel with an infant than an unruly older child.

Many years ago, when I was 3 years old, my Dad had a business dinner to go to with the president (and his wife) of the company that he worked for. This business dinner was very important to my Dad's career. My Mother also needed to accompany my Dad to this dinner. At the last minute the baby sitter cancelled out, and my Mother was not going to join my Dad at dinner. The president of the company's wife called my Mother and told her to bring me along. Well, I went to this adult dinner at a very exclusive French restaurant in Manhattan, and sat on telephone books so I could reach the table. This restaurant was not child friendly 42 years ago. Well, I had my first encounter with tasting escargot, and even though I was well behaved, I vomited all over the table at this very expensive restaurant. Both my parents were mortified. The president of the company laughed and said to my Dad that he didn't care for his meal either, and his children also didn't like escargot.

By the way, my Dad got the promotion.

I posted a very erudite reply to Miss Obx, but Daniel Mangin and The Sweeney at Fodors have taken the liberty of deleting it. This is fast becoming a NO FUN ZONE. I will soon be listening to Chanel 4 radio programmes for a razzle.

I would far rather eat at any restaurant that admits a couple with their 4 month old baby, than at any establishment that would seat ThinGorjus.

Practically speaking, what you need to decide and base your decisions upon - - is how comfortable you feel with your baby at the restaurant with you. Which means that you need to go in pursuit of some fine dining with him/her in your own locale ASAP.

We enjoyed fine dining on more than one occasion when our first daughter was six months and under. Typically, she sat in an infant seat, placed on the floor out of the way and slept through our entire dinner. From the time she was about 1, and when we had two and then three, under age four - - then we had to do "fine dining out" - - withOUT them, for a number of years afterwards.

Best wishes,

Rex

While I don't have any experience with infants in nice restaurants in England/Scotland, I can give you some tips from our years with infants; our kids are now 8 & 4, and are well-behaved nice-restaurant customers.

When our kids were infants, the big problem was the unpredictability - you can't know which night will be a "good" night for them.

In the U.S., especially in tourist areas, many restaurants are happy to prepare food to go (whether or not they have a take-out menu). Dinner in your hotel room can be less scenic, but also less stressful for parents. Lunchtimes at any restaurant tend to be less formal, so a kid can be less inappropriate then. Eating on the earlier side, too, is an option, though the restaurants are more likely to be quiet then, so there's less cover noise. Restaurants with outdoor seating can be good, too. Sometimes restaurants have more casual bar sections, at which you can order and eat the same food that's available in the main restaurant. Ethnic restaurants tend to be more casual and can have fantastic food. We've occasionally hired baby-sitters, though that's less nerve-wracking when the kids are older.

When in doubt about taking an infant/child, we've called the restaurant to ask - we figure they've at least been warned if the restaurant says infants/kids are welcome.

As the old adage goes, "Children should be seen but not heard..."

Truly, it is terribly inconsiderate to bring an infant to a "fine dining" establishment. Unless your baby is sound asleep throughout, "quiet" does not describe the experience of all other patrons. "Cute" (to you) baby noises, or, worse, parents yammering to the baby throughout the meal is a dismal experience to those around you attending, in hopes of their own "fine dining" experience.

Now that you are a FAMILY, it's best that you endeavor to visit "family" dining destinations.

In my experience, Indian and Chinese restaurants work out nicely with small children. YMMV.

Hi TG,

I seem to have missed your, I am sure, excellent reply.

Although Chanel 4 is nice, I prefer Chanel No 5.

I live in Edinburgh and have an 18 month old daughter. Although I wouldn't recommend some of the more expensive restaurants as suitable - the Witchery probably falls into this category - there are plenty of other alternatives. I think that the warnings posted above are good, though, in that you need not only to be aware of what suits you but also what suits others in the restaurant.

I have a book at home which lists some of the places in Edinburgh which are "family friendly" (and they do venture away from TGI Fridays and McDonalds!) I'll take a look when I get in and will post again either tonight or tomorrow with some details.

You are quite right, sir, I am a dubious speller. But, even at Harrow I only took a Third. It isn't easy when the bloke sitting next to you is a viscount and you are the son of a chimneysweep from Wapping.

Who could possibly object to Chanel?

I think I know what kind of restaurant you are looking for - the "noisy, busy" type of place to cover up any baby noise, but it serves well-prepared, "gourmet" meals. Your "research" for good restaurants will have to be different than you did in the past. For example, I just picked up "England for Dummies" and "Italy for Dummies." Although these publications aren't too sophisticated, I found that they have great "kid-friendly" suggestions, including restaurants. I also agree with the other posters - you will have to ask around, and be prepared to order room service or "picnic" if nothing appropriate is available. Traveling with kids can be done, but it takes much more planning and flexibility.

What a bunch of stuffed shirts on this board!!!

Last year, I had lunch at Steiereck in Vienna - arguably the most famous restaurant in Austria, Michelin one-star etc. We brought along our 5 year-old daughter.

There were 3 other children dining that day, including a 2 month old. The staff could not have been more child friendly. And the food was as good as I've eaten anywhere. I even had a cigar (my first in about two years) - their selection is extraordinary. And before anyone gets all over me re: secondhand smoke, remember this. Most of our parents smoked around us and we don't seem to be dropping dead.

Avoid most "fancy" restaurants, esp. for dinner. Lunch is almost always more casual and accomodating. Personally, I prefer the casual bistro/trattoria type restaurants anyway.

Also, call and ask if it's OK for kids. Any restaurant that hesitates isn't one you'd feel comfortable in anyway.

This thread actually reminds me of why I can't stand "fine dining" - it's like eating in a morgue or museum.

Coachboy

No such thing as the guarentee of a "quiet" baby at dinner. Out of respect for the others who may be spending the most money on a meal ever on their special vacation don't do it. Have a fine dinning meal delivered to your hotel room, or get a sitter from an agency and go out to dinner.

I think what set most folks off was the "fine dining" bit. To most people fine dining means posh, special, ambience, etc. An infant has no business in a "Fine Dining" establishment. But I actually think you are just looking for good food in a nice setting.

there are TONS of places all over the UK that will give you a good meal and welcome children too.

The zagats guide for London lists over 200 restaurants (real restaurants, not fast food places) that are good for kids.

Each has detailed ratings of cost, food, setting, service, etc.

You will find a lot of places all over Scotland that embrace kids.

How timely given the Sex and the City episode last night addressing the same topic. Personnally, if your child is well behaved, no problem. The minute the child starts screaming or misbehaving, if you take the child out of the restaurant, no one should mind. We were at a family friendly restaurant last week where a 3 year old threw a temper tanturm, yelling crying, running around and the parents did nothing. It ruined our dinner and those around us-for them I have 2 words-baby sitter.

At the risk of stating the obvious and as touched upon by several other posters...

I'd wait until you are in a location and ask at the hotel front desk, your room maid, a taxi driver, shop keepers, etc. for their suggestions - as to where you might find the best meal where an infant would be welcomed too.

That's going to be much more accurate and timely than any books or general posted responses here.

Add my vote to the "don't take the baby" bunch.

Hire a sitter; don't impose your beloved bundle on others.

OK, as promised, here are a few suggestions. These come from a book called "Edinburgh for Under Fives" which is very useful for those of us with kids in that age range!

Howie's is a restaurant which features a number of times. They have branches across Edinburgh - the nearest to the centre is probably in Stockbridge, but there's also one in Bruntsfield too. These are generally pretty good - if you do a search on here you will find a number of recommendations. Website - www.howies.uk.com

Chisholms Restaurant at the Caledonian Hotel (Hilton) also welcomes children.

Two on the Grassmarket - Gennaro's and Mamma's. I'd not really describe them as "fine dining" but the food seems to be pretty good and the restaurants are friendly. Both are on the small side, though, so if baby is in a buggy (stroller) then it could be difficult.

A bit further out, the Cramond Brig pub is excellent for Sunday lunch and welcomes children. Pizza Express is across Edinburgh, and also welcomes children (although again, it's not fine dining.)

These are just the ones that advertise the fact that kids are welcome. Others might be OK - just phone and ask.

Premal, like yourselves we have a young child (now 18mnths), love eating out and great food. We live in the UK (just north of London) and occasionally eat out at top places. Frequently we take the little one with us, although usually for lunch or early evening first sitting.

In the restaurants we've been to i've generally not noticed smoking, the exception being Gordon Ramsey Restaurant (London) which was a little smokey.

My recommendations.....

Gordon Ramsey, London, French, 'CHILDREN WELCOME' 3 michelin stars

John Burton Race at the Landmark Hotel, London, French, www.landmarklondon.co.uk 'CHILDREN WELCOME' 2 michelin stars

Nobu, London, Japanese /South American, good for star spotting, 'CHILDREN WELCOME' 1 michelin star

Mandarin Oriental Hyde Park, London, 'CHILDREN WELCOME'

Nahm, Halkin Hotel, London, Thai, 'CHILDREN WELCOME' www.halkin.co.uk 1 michelin star 'best Thai restaurant in London'?

Le Manoir aux Quat' Saisons - Near Oxford & Cotswolds, French, www.blanc.co.uk 2 michelin stars 'CHILDREN WELCOME'

947AD at the Royalist, Cotswolds, the 'oldest inn' in the UK, www.theroyalisthotel.co.uk, 'CHILDREN WELCOME'

Sorry I can't personally recommend any restaurants in the Lake District or Edinburgh. The Drunken Duck Inn, Ambleside, Cumbria, sounds interesting though. www.drunkenduckinn.co.uk and of course 'CHILDREN WELCOME'

Some of these restaurants, particularly those in London, will need to be booked well in advance.

Hope all 3 of you enjoy yourselves!