I'm interested ton seethat no-one has mentioned Prague which on a U.K. documantary last year was highlighted as the worst place in europe for pickpockets.You can imagine how vigilant we were on a visit a week later.Even then my husband had his pocket picked in the few seconds when he had to use two hands to lift a suitcase up on to the underground.All the rest of the time he has his hand in his pocket holding his wallet.He actually saw the thief's hand going into his pocket out of the corner of his eye and dug his elbow into his chest pushing him away.The fellow had the cheek to get on behind us and sit opposite us!We didn't know what we could do.In Britain we'd have carried out a citizen's arrest but we were quite out of our depth there.

Capo: <BR> <BR>My comment was meant in defense of the police. Your Roman policeman did you a favor. These guys are extremely clever and hard to catch. As I've said, they work in teams. Pass off the "take" immediately to a another team member. They usually get of train and vanish into the crowd. On another comment, however--We get mixed messages on this forum. Lots of posters say not to worry. It's just like any big city anywhere It only happens rarely. Just relax. I beg to differ. I couldn't get my wife on the Metro after the second incident. She was totally paranoid. Even after I told her not to worry since we had nothing left to steal. Why should you have to feel fearful and nervous while trying to have a good time on vacation? <BR>Francis: Even if you arrested that guy, chances are he no longer had the wallet on him but had passed it off to someone not even on the train. <BR>San Francisco police use decoys posing as tourists(and drunks etc.) that are watched by a team who snatch the bad guy when he makes his move. This results in lots of arrests but is criticised due to entrapment issues. <BR>By the way, I would not recommend fighting with them if you catch them (other than obviously defend yourself). I'm told they do carry knives. Losing a few dollars to a pickpocket is a very small inconvenience in the big picture--although a very aggevating one. Trying to fight off a "gang" in a foreign country could lead to much worse consequences. <BR>I repeat: Citizens attitude determines the police response. If the citizens see no big deal in this behavior neither will the police. I have no control over these things. Just a guest in someone else's country. I either choose to live with it or stay away. My right either way. Also my right to warn others and to voice my opinions to those who may value my tourist dollar. Hans: Just because the guy has no criminal record, doesn't mean he didn't try to rob you. <BR> <BR>Gerry

Gerry: <BR>Well said! I can't agree with you more. However,I can understand perfectly well your wife's reluctance. Being a victim of violent crime in Spain,even after more than one year, I can't help keeping fully-alert whenever going to train/bus stations in Europe. It is not the worry of losing something, but,the feeling of helplessness. BTW, the other poster's comment about the victim being lazy/stupid or ignorant is way out of line. Sometimes people just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Sjoerd-"lazy, ignorant and/or stupid people"? You are either a troll or just another American basher common here. <BR>I feel like the Ambassador for "Those Less Traveled". I have said it before and will say it again-many of us are blessed to get to leave our towns once and again-not to mention leave the country. Most people I know think of me as the "world traveler" and I HAVE <BR>traveled-somewhat-not nearly as much as most on these boards. And we are learning about the world through our travels-sometimes we learn the hard way. <BR>Many of us want to assume the best in people and when planning trips we think of the fun things first (sites we will see, food we will eat)and don't think that we have to on guard every single second. That is not lazy or ignorant, just human. <BR>Patti <BR>

People seem to have misunderstood my post. "Lazy" means too lazy to prepare a trip and at least know what are pickpockets and how they operate. "Ignorant" indeed means "uninformed" or "unaware". "Stupid" means aware but not doing anything to prevent pickpocketing. <BR>There are some very simple rules to prevent pickpocketing: 1. Keep as many valuables as possible in a hotel safe or other safe place (why do people walk around with large sums of money, passports and 4 credit cards??) <BR>2. Everything which you really need that day must be in a money belt or other secure place on your body. Best is to keep a hand on it in crowded situations. <BR>3. Be aware of your surroundings. I normally can tell who is a pickpocket from 100 meters distance. <BR>Also, the police are doing what they can to prevent pickpocketing. Here in Amsterdam, there are constant warnings in trains, on trams, in stations "Beware of pickpockets" in 5 languages. Also, the police have undercover agents who patrol the streets. They try to arrest pickpockets "caught in the action", and they also warn tourists and locals who have their wallets in an open handbag etc. I watched a documentary about pickpocketing on local TV here in NL and you wouldn't believe how easy some tourists make it for the thieves. <BR>In the last month, I personally told two tourists who were walking in front of me in Amsterdam to stow away their valuables. I could have stolen them easily. <BR>And yes, I have been pickpocketed as well. I was drunk. I was stupid. <BR>Remember that a few years ago there were a couple of murders of foreign tourists in Florida? These poor people also were lazy, uninformed and/or stupid. Had they asked for directions and a good map, this would not have happened. <BR>

Quote: "this is ridiculous that Americans don't pressure foreign governments to police tourist areas better. And to have the natives stand by and accept this as the status quo reflects truly on their character. Any opinions" <BR> <BR>Well my question is, are you always so totally insulting of the people you're about to visit? With such a low opinion of us, perhaps you should stay at home.

Well said Michelle. <BR>Have you ever heard of a tourist being murdered anywhere in Europe. I can think of several cases in the USA.

Michelle & Egg: Insulting? In what way? I respectfully asked to be educated (see my post 5/5/2001). What might have been less disrespectful on your part would have been to do so, tell me how the Italians or French or Spanish, etc., are actively combating petty thievery (as Capo's and Kam's 5/5/01 posts did), tell me what you and your friends think and believe personally about pickpockets. Explain why your countrymen and women stood by while tourists fight off the thieves. Don't, again, do as those locals on the subway did in Gerry's (5/05/2001, 5:58 pm) post, simply accuse the Americans or stand stonefaced and ignore the action. Capo's and Kam's posts did provide "education" for me and others and contributed to the "discussion" quality of this post. Your reply, on the other hand, is simply another matter. Why so defensive without providing defense?

There are some appalling generalizations on both sides of this entire thread. You don't get to make these sweeping statements without acknowledging all kinds of variabilities and contributing factors. <BR> <BR>America is a single country, largely suburban in profile but with an enormous range of wealth and ethnicity -- with the most severe differences concentrated in high-density urban areas. Europe is several countries, with ethnic distribution usually falling roughly along national lines and differences of wealth not nearly so defining. <BR> <BR>Sjoerd, of course travellers in a strange country don't always know where they are -- even with a map, I challenge you to navigate neighborhoods in Northeast WashDC or St. Louis or Flagstaff. We in the US have some major cities with essentially no subways -- of course people from these cities are going to lack savvy about how to use them. If you remove "ignorance" as one of your criteria, you might find "lazy and stupid" go with them. <BR> <BR>That said, based on more experience in Spain than in Italy, it seems absolutely certain that police must share a general attitude that pick-pocketing is just one more way to make money from tourism -- and it's highly improbable that even if the local constabulary aren't getting kick-backs from the thieves, they are at least consciously turning a blind eye to the whole process. <BR> <BR>A British consular officer in the Barcelona embassy told me he spends 75% of his time dealing with British nationals who have been victims of pick-pocketing or theft on the streets. While I will never, ever defend America's attitude toward guns, violence, or racist crimes, I doubt if 75% of any foreign embassy official's time is taken up with street theft in the US.

Well, Sjoerd, congratulations not only being rude and insulting, but also smug and judgmental. Also wrong with your facts. One of the major contributing factors to the tourist murders in Florida were the large bumperstickers/emblems placed on the cars identifying them as rental cars. Practically flag waving that the cars were driven by tourists. The attackers said they sought out cars with those markings. All the maps and money belts in the world wouldn't haven't helped. Since then, almost all car rental companies have gotten rid of those obvious stickers. <BR>YOU may be been drunk and stupid when you go pickpocketed, but I was NOT. Nor was I lazy, stupid or unaware. I LIVE in the city where I got pickpocketed, have been in and out of the Gare du Midi dozens of times, knew there were pickpockets on the loose (and knew their prime time was before 9 am week-ends when there were/are NO police on duty), and was carrying only the cash we needed for the day in Paris and ONE credit card for emergencies. And I still got nailed in less than five seconds. <BR>It's true I don't have your "magic vision" to spot ALL pickpockets 100 meters away. Neither do the police--perhaps you should offer your superhero services to Brussels officials. As one of the top ranking police said (direct quote): "Many of these pickpockets are professionals; this is how they make their living and it would be difficult to say that ANYONE can completely avoid being victimized." <BR>I suggest you drop your snide, know-it-all tone and admit there is a problem in some European cities and that it could be handled better. Even the Brussels politicians and police recognize that fact. They also admit that better handling of the problem is bogged down by political/bureaucratic infighting and that is NOT the fault of those stupid, ignorant, lazy visitors (in other words, everyone who's not just like you) that you so despise.

Hello Fed-Up: I'm having a quiet afternoon so I'll answer you, even though I suspect you're a troll. <BR> <BR>I stick by what I originally said. You were insulting. <BR> <BR>You did not "respectfully ask to be educated" in your intial posting. You did imply that Europe can't exist without American dollars. You stated that America should "pressure" European governments to change their policing policies (!) You talk of attacking pickpockets with a knife. You talk of "breaking some kids arm". How is this "respectuflly asking to be educated" <BR> <BR>Where do you live Fed-Up? It must be a pretty awful place. In Europe I have never had to be "constantly vigilant" because "of the possibility of being kidnapped and raped while walking to my car in the parking lot." Maybe you should get your own house in order before swiping at Europe and Europeans. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Gerry.I take on board all you say but I'm delighted to report that the pick pocket in Prague didn't actually get my husbands wallet because of the way he elbowed him back.. <BR>The advice that you give about not fighting back has got to be good but it doesn't take account of human nature which has you responding faster than thinking. <BR>Its a most beautiful day here in Anglesey,North Wales,why does no-one ever seem to want to travel here?

Last year, the well-known travel writer Bill Bryson was mugged at a knife point while traveling. <BR>One syndicated newspaper travel colummnist was knocked unconscious while trying to fight back a pickpokets on Costa Del Sol last Winter.

Just wondering how big (small) the problem actually is. There are hundreds of millions of people travelling in Europe every year. I don't have the statistics here, but maybe less than 0.01% are victims of pickpocketing.

Gerry, Re: "Capo: My comment was meant in defense of the police. Your Roman policeman did you a favor." <BR> <BR>Comment understood, thanks! Yes, we thought he did us a very big favor. That happened on our last evening, and last Metro ride, in Rome, and it was a wonderful note to end on, to have someone go out of their way like that to help us. <BR> <BR>Also, since you're a policeman, a question for you regarding Han's comment that, in Germany anyway, "If your reaction isn't proportional to the threat you're facing, you're breaking the law." Do you know if that is the same in the U.S. (or specifically where you work)? Is it unlawful (or lawful) for someone who might catch a person picking their pocket to, for example, break their arm? <BR> <BR>Sjoerd, Re: '"Ignorant" indeed means "uninformed" or "unaware".' <BR> <BR>That's true. However, I think the problem with that word, as I noted above, is that it's come to have primarily a negative meaning, as if saying a person is ignorant means that they're stupid. As I also noted above, I'd readily admit that *I* was ignorant about certain precautions before my first trip to Europe. Now I am not, because I've taken the time and effort to become aware and informed. <BR> <BR>Also, Re: "Just wondering how big (small) the problem actually is. There are hundreds of millions of people travelling in Europe every year." <BR> <BR>That's a very good question. This is not to say there's not a problem with petty crime in Europe -- because, obviously, there is -- but some perspective in this matter is, I think, important. <BR> <BR>

Francis: <BR>I'd love to go to North Wales. Do you have pickpockets there too? Hope you can travel to Northern California someday too. Oh.. if we had the time and money! <BR>Do as I say, not as I do. I would have fought back too(See my posts above). But it helps to know when to cut your losses, as you did. <BR> <BR>European friends: <BR>Please understand that pickpocketing in North America(US/Canada) is a very rare occurence. It is unheard of in the suburbs and rare even in most big cities(usually performed by bungling amatures). We don't carry money belts. Most Americans don't even know what one is.(See What is this "secret" pouch thread.) Most of us never give this a thought as it is not a problem here. Not stupid. But, we need to be educated in this before travelling overseas. And, other than at the carnival, we have never before seen a gypsy. How whould we know what to look for? I have a cousin that is going arround telling everyone about how a bunch of nice Italian Catholic school girls robbed thier group after the Papal audience in St. Peter's square. They didn't even know they were gypsys. So Italian Catholic school girls take the rap. <BR>We do have our share of other crimes(purse snatchings,street robberies etc. Most of us have learned to protect ourselves against these things. If you ask us, we will tell you how too. (Its not as widespread a problem as Europeans perceive.) <BR>We try here(SF at least)to take action to protect travelers. When someone is a victim of crime we do not say:"Well the stupid tourist should have stayed home." No matter how dumb their actions may appear. Its our job to protect our guests. We feel embarassed and hope the actions of some dirt-ball(whom we do our best to stop/punish) doesn't cause the traveller to hate our city, country and law-abiding citizenry. <BR> <BR>Sjoerd: <BR>I strongly suspect that this problem is much more widespread than statistics show. Only a small percentage of these crimes are reported. It seems that almost everyone I meet here at home has a pickpocket story to tell from thier trip to Europe. <BR> <BR>PS. I'll be returning to Rome as soon as I can. Hope they still want me. This time I'll be more of a veteran. <BR> <BR>Capo: next post <BR> <BR>Gerry <BR>

Capo: <BR>Take this as my opinions only. <BR>Very briefly. Under American law you have a privelege known as the right of self-defense. This is based on English common law and maybe has been expanded due to our so called "wild west" mentality. You are also protected by privelege of defense of others (you step into their shoes and assume thier right) and if on your property the "no retreat" rule (they can't force you our of your own house--"your home is your castle"). However, your response must be reasonable considering the threat. If its not a life threatening attack you can't give a life threatening responsc. Eg. Can't follow the pickpocket home and shoot him. Also, if you overreact the right of self defense might kick in for him and so on. If you were to get prosecuted, <BR>in the US the jury gets to decide what was reasonable under the circumstances. I'd want FedUp and her friends and you can guess which other posters on my jury. They might just award you a medal. If you got Hans, Sjoerd , Michelle, that Italian lady etc., you might be in trouble. <BR>In my opinion the American attitude expressed is a main reason why we don't have the same theft problem here. The pickpockets etc. know that their behavior will not be tolerated. They know that the victim along with FedUp and friends will practice "street justice" on him if he is caught. Most crooks are afraid to take that chance. <BR>Bad guys/bullies are basicly cowards in disguise. <BR> <BR>One note: <BR>Law enforcement(US) considers the knife in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, to be by far the most dangerous and deadly weapon at close quarters. FBI training says don't even think about defending yourself from a knife attack. Just shoot him. <BR>I always carry my Swiss army knife but would never think of using it as a weapon.(Not what its for and not trained.) <BR>I would never even dream about taking a gun to Europe. So what are we left with. <BR> <BR>Hope this is of some help to someone. <BR> <BR>Gerry

In London, where I live, there is a problem with skilled pickpockets in the main shopping street (Oxford Street) on on the underground (Subway) <BR>The perpetrators are gangs of young children of East European Origin ( I daren't sday gipsies for fear of being accused of racism!) <BR>The police are very vigilant, the whole area is covered by CCTV cameras, and plain-clothes police patrols, nevertheless they are almost powerless to act as the children are too young to be prosecuted, all they can do is harrass the thieves and keep them moving. <BR>Warning signs are posted everywhere, and victims are more likely to be shoppers then tourists, as they have money and cards on them, and are distracted and laden with bags. <BR>Much the same applies to the Underground, with CCTV and squads of police.

The post is provocative, might even be a troll, I think thats why Sjoerd reacted as he did. <BR>I have fought off the more obvious attempts to rifle my bags/pockets, (this usually involves pushing them away & shouting at them) but I wouln't advise it against anyone who is really prepared to fight. <BR> Most thieves flee when they meet any resistance, it doesn't pay them to fight, but you might be dealing with a nutcase who is prepared to stab you for your wallet - unlikely, but you have to decide. <BR> A few months ago someone thrust their hand into my girlfriend's bag in a cafe in Malaga while I was in the toilet.She pulled her bag away, she said later she was just too surprised to do anything else.When I emerged she hustled me out of the place & wouldn't tell why until we were well down the street, judging that macho pride might lead me to do something stupid. As it happened I was carrying an umbrella which I felt like trying to open inside the thief.On later reflection I realised that there were two big guys, the one not doing the dipping was heavily built & had scars across his face & was probably more prepared for a scrap than I was, so she probably saved me a beating. <BR> Two years ago her father was mugged in Ronda by 2 men, one held him from behind while the other tore his shirt open & removed his moneybelt.They threw him to the ground (breaking his specs). <BR> When he got up his instinct was to pursue them, but he then realised this was foolish! (The police were not interested). <BR> If you really want to fight against pickpockets, write & complain the the local & national gov. representatives, tourist boards etc. <BR> I think it would help if Fodors could be persuaded to start a league table - city with most muggings, city with worst police attitude. <BR> Walking down most busy shopping streets its amazing how many open bags etc there are, must be a great temptation for some.Not everyone being dipped is stupid, but some people make it so easy it must encourage thieves, you feel like telling them to button their bag.

Gerry: You might get away from a German court, too. But if I was travelling in a foreign country, I wouldn't like to get involved in a trial, no matter how good my chances are. Since someone using serious physical violence in case of pickpocketing won't be sent away by the police with a smile and a handshake, I would seriously recommend not to do it. <BR> <BR>To put the number of pickpockets "in Europe" in some perspective: I have never been the subject of a pickpocket in Germany nor do I know of anyone who was. I wouldn't even think about carrying a money belt in any German city. Neither have I ever worn a money belt while travelling in Europe and nothing ever happened to me. I know of many people which act exactly the same way and nothing ever happened to them either. If every American tourist has a story about pickpockets, I can only say that I've very often read the story of the surprised American who was shouted at by Germans when crossing the street at a red light. Since I often cross the street at red lights and it never, ever happened to me, I have slight doubts that this is as typical for Germany as travel writers make it. <BR> <BR>There are some places in Europe where petty crime happens more than in the rest. For example, the Paris metro is problematic. Or the chances of getting your car broken in southern France or at the Italian border are much greater than for example in Sweden. Since Italians and Frenchmen are fearing this as much as anyone else (judging from the number of alarm systems and the behaviour of some Italian friends), my guess is that this problem isn't easy to solve since otherwise it would have been done. <BR> <BR>As for seeing this as an European problem which should be solved by Brussels: Very simple, the justice and the police are purely national tasks. There is nothing the EU can or is allowed or should be allowed to do.