Feedback wanted please!!
 

Hi everyone,

My partner and I are planning to honeymoon in Europe in time for its 2014 summer, coming from Australia. We will have approximately six weeks from the first week in June. I don' t want to make the mistake of cramming too much in, but like all Aussies, want to see as much as we can given how far away it is!

Here is my suggested itinerary (including travel time):

London - 4 days
Edinburgh - 3 days
Scottish countryside - 2 days
Rome - 4 days
Florence - 2 days
Cinque Terre - 4 days
Genoa - 1 day/night
Milan - 1 day/night
Venice - 2 days
Geneva - 2 days
Chamonix - 4 days
Bordeaux - 4 days
San Sebastian - 3 days
Barcelona - 3 days
Paris (including Champagne) - 5 days
London - 1 day
Home

Feedback would be very welcome!

Thanks :)

16 moves in 6 weeks is far too many! That's one every 2-1/2 days, more or less. Rethink your place and try for a few less move.

Note: Champagne from Paris is not a day-trip.

Thanks Robert2533. Any tips on what to/not to include?

That's crazy. Think in terms of nights, not days, and count all the time to travel in between places.

Thanks StCirq, hence the reason for my post - feedback very welcome. Alternate suggestions also if you have any?

I've not done such a complex trip, and am not familiar with travel logistics for all the areas you plan to visit so can't grasp a plan for a good itinerary, but here are some thoughts.

Can you do some kind of multi-city (open jaw) flight, and not return to London? Three places you have chosen, Italy, Spain and Scotland form a big triangle. They could work by themselves, flying one from the other, but you have Switzerland tucked in. Switzerland works OK with Italy and France. Northern Spain works fine with Paris. Paris and London are great together. Just all together, you have some careful travel planning to do or you will spend a lot of time in transport instead of sightseeing in Europe.

I do not see any travel time in your itinerary. To figure how many days you actually have in a place, calculate total travel time, including time to check out/into hotels, get to train station, airport, etc. usually a minimum of a half day each time you move. Have you thought about your means of transportation for place to place, country to country; trains, plane, car rental?


Because it will be super hot by July, I would reverse the order of the trip, starting in the South. Could you fly into Venice, Rome or Barcelona?

This would be my ideal: Land in Spain, fly to Italy, train to Switzerland, fly to Scotland, Train or fly to London. Train to Paris. fly home.

There are probably better options, but this is one way of organizing it if London is your only choice.
Consider landing in London and flying straight on to Venice. Venice is a good place to get over jet lag, so give it an extra day. If you find you are rested and see all you want of Venice proper, you could visit the little islands of Burano, etc or do one of many easy day trips (Padua, Vicenza, Verona).

Use trains in Italy
Land in Venice, 4 nts
Travel (1/2 to 3/4 day) to CT 3 nts. (4 if you are into hiking)
Travel (1/2 day) to Florence, 3 nts or 4 nts. depending on your interest in Art, the hill towns or Tuscany
Travel (2&1/2 hrs total) to Rome, 4 nts.

Fly from Rome to Spain?
Fly or train from Rome to Switzerland?

If you are not into hiking, cut CT and add time to Florence or Venice.
If you have no special interest in either, cut Genoa and Milan.

With such long flights, you may need a night at the beginning in London to sleep and rest. If so, I would do only one night and still put touring time in London all at the end.

I am looking forward to seeing your final plan.

Thanks Sassafrass.

I had tried to build in travel time in my thinking, but hadn't actually spelled it out here. My problem is so much of what we want to do is all so close to each other ...!

We are definitely into hiking, hence CT and Chamonix.

It is a fair bit more expensive to do an open jaw flight from here, but that is an option. I initially liked the idea of flying into Rome and then going straight to CT so we could relax there early in the trip, as well as do some hiking.

So an option would be to start in Rome, go to CT and then to Venice. This would mean leaving out Florence/Tuscany, Genoa and Milan, which is tough to do as they would all be great - not so fussed on Milan though.

I put Geneva in there so we could access Chamonix from there and do some hiking and/or bike riding. We would love to bike ride or hike in most places we go actually!

I had Bordeaux for the romance and wine (while cycling)! Paris because I am most looking forward to it out of all the cities, Spain because it would be fun and London because I have a friend who has lived there for several years and I have never visited her, and I would also love to see the city.

I will keep thinking, thanks again!

Here's a basic rule of thumb: assume that every change of location will take 1/2 day -- time to pack, check out, get to a train station (or whatever) well in advance of your departure, make the journey, get oriented to the new location, get to your lodging, check in, unpack, grab a cup of coffee or whatever you need to feel anything other than bedraggled.... Now, look at your proposed schedule. You'll realized that you have almost no time to actually see anything, but will be spending LOTS of time in transit. Take a deep breath and then pick up the ax that you will take to your proposed itinerary.

I don't think we can suggest you what might consider cutting until we know more about what YOU want to see and experience. You might start with a map and some information about the times it will take to get from place to place because one logical way to trim your plans is to cut the time you will spend in transit. Take the weather into consideration. Check what days the things you most want to see are closed. Find out if there are any festivals you want to include -- or exclude! Plan for jet lag. Be sure to plan some down-time (at least a day or two half-way through your trip, or perhaps a day or two after each pair of weeks). Think about WHEN you will travel from place to place, as "2 days" can mean anything from 1 to 3 nights.

The good news is that you will see some wonderful things. And although it might seem counterintuitive, you will actually probably see more by slowing down a LOT.

Hope that helps!

Hi RLT95
Yes it is tempting to try to fit it all in as the flights are long and expensive but it's still not worth it. I have not found flying open jaw more expensive but I tend not to fly at peak times. It is more time efficient .
I would drop Scotland for now .
The CT is very nice but if the hiking is why you are going there I'd suggest you checkout the trail conditions.
You could still consider Rome-Florence-CT-Venice.
Slow down, keep playing around with a few different routes and one will stand out as the "one".

Having been in your shoes, I think what you have planned is completely possible. But...with the benefit of hindsight, I think I would go along with everyone else that suggests that you cut some of your 1 night stays and add these to make longer stays in less places - this probably doesn't come as a surprise. You'll find that the more places you see...the more places you want to see. So, it really is impossible to see it all. I think you'll enjoy being more relaxed, and having time to just be still every now and again.

Also...check out Emirates for your flights. They usually have specials in Feb for flights to EU ex AU/NZ. It will be cheaper to fly into/out of probably anywhere other than London. Eg. you could fly into Glasgow with Emirates via Dubai and work south to London and on to Paris..etc...etc...and then fly home from Barcelona or Rome or wherever you end up last. - or vv.

If it was me, I wouldn't stay in Genoa, Milan or Geneva - all perfectly nice, but time better spent elsewhere. I think I would add the time to beachy or non city places to have a decent amount of down time (it is your honeymoon after all :) ). Again, this is my personal preference, as I know I get sick of cities, churches and museums, especially in summer heat. Of course, if these are your favourite things to do...then I don't mind if you ignore my suggestions!

One last thing...if you have a friend in London, I think you'll find your time there will go really fast - maybe need more time in London.

Oh and another last thing...I'm not superhuman at all, and have always flown in the cheap seats, and I've never had a problem with jet lag flying from NZ to EU. Best thing I've found is to have a shower and then just get on with doing what you want to be doing. I have a sneaky suspicion that things go horribly wrong when you rest on arrival.

Can you give some idea of the thinking behind some of the places you want to visit - and why so long / so short

Why does Bordeaux have 4 days - the same as London, why 4 days in Chamonix (unless it involves doing LOTS of walking)? Why San Sebastian and WHY Cinque Terre (answers involving Rick Steves will be frowned upon)?

Ok so after some more research I have found it is still cheaper to fly in and out of London.

But how about this:

Arrive Tuesday June 3 to London in the evening
Spend the following 4 days in London
Depart Sunday morning, June 8, for Rome
Spend 3.5 days in Rome and depart Thursday morning, June 12, for Florence
Spend Thursday night through to Monday morning, June 16 in Florence (day trip somewhere)
Travel Monday to Cinque Terre
Stay in CT til Saturday morning, June 21
Spend Saturday travelling to Venice
Stay Sunday and Monday in Venice (I'm not fussed on only having two days here)
Depart Tuesday morning, June 24, for Geneva
Spend until Thursday morning in Geneva and then go to Chamonix by the afternoon
Stay in Chamonix til Tuesday morning, July 1
Travel to Bordeaux and stay til Saturday, July 5
Travel to Paris and stay til Thursday, July 10
Spend Friday July 11 and Saturday July 12 in Eppernay

That leaves six more days if we fly home on July 18, with obviously needing to get back to London to fly home.

Any views on this itinerary? Could we add anything else in and if so recommendations would be good. We love hiking, cycling and coast (although living on the Australian Coast we are already spoilt for that here!) and I would love a mix of city and country/alps ....

Hi alanRow,

Hopefully I have answered most of your questions in the above post.

I guess the length is based mainly on not wanting to move too much but also I guess on the perceived (to me!) romance of each place. But if we don't need so much time in some places I would be happy to adjust based on advice.

I love the idea of French romance and wine, the Italian/French/Swiss alps, the Italian Coast, the history of all of it and I wanted Spain for some fun but have dropped it for now ...

just saw your reply thelittlestkiwi and thanks!! I will look out on emirates in feb!

Have you included all the added costs of getting back to London and transport involved with doing that? Not to mention all the wasted vacation time? I would rather pay slightly more than waste time and money getting back to London.

If you like the idea of France I would give Bordeaux a miss. I much prefer the burgundy area for lovely vineyards, great wine and picture perfect villages. Beaune and Dijon are great bases there. Plus it's on the side of France that you are already on. The Bordeaux area is just ok...

Some pics http://www.flickr.com/photos/pug_gir...7607493717331/

You have a lot of time in CT...these places are small and many of the hiking trails have been closed on and off the past year or so...you may want to allocate more time to another place.

Also why geneva? If you want hiking I would stay in Wengen or Lauterbrennen...somewhere in the mountains...

Hi there, I'm not sure what you are looking at but we always fly into one city and out of another and there is usually no difference in price. I am from Perth, we fly Singapore Airlines when we can, I just did Perth to London return then did Perth to London, Rome to Perth and its a couple of hundred cheaper for the open jaw. You need to select "multi city" wether it's Singapore, Emirates or who ever. But you have missed the early bird specials that were out a couple of months ago. You may pick up a good fare from one of the travel expos or sign up for emails for a couple of your chosen airlines and wait for specials.

Another way of looking at your trip is to pick 6 places and stay a week in each doing day trips if you wish, it will be cheaper as you could stay in apartments. Just throwing it out there as an idea to play with.

While your second version is an improvement, I would reconsider the length of time you are spending in Cinque Terre. Two or three days allows for hiking many of the trails and seeing the 5 towns. I think I would be bored by the third day and would want to add at least one day to Venice and to Rome. I'd skip Geneva and find a good place in France or Switzerland to hike.

Suggest you also keep looking at open jaw flights. We always fly this way and I have never known it to be more expensive, especially if you consider the cost returning to London.

Rather than the Swiss Alps...what about the Italian Alps, the Dolomites?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pug_gir...7636058614266/

I suppose there is more to Geneva than the Red Cross and UN (not forgetting the lake & fountain), but I'm with jamikins — you would be much better off going to the Bernese Oberland and staying in Lauterbrunnen, Wengen, or Grindelwald. I've only been there to ski, but know that hiking in summer is spectacular.

If you go to the Bernese Oberland you could also stay in Interlaken, which is a good base to visit the mountains by railway, and also has some music festivals in June & July: http://files.gadmin.ch/52676?CFID=bd...989f&CFTOKEN=0

>>>It is a fair bit more expensive to do an open jaw flight from here, but that is an option<<<

That is usually not the case unless you have found a really cheap flight to London. If you would state your departure cities/dates, we could probably help you find flights that would not waste your time backtracking. You probably didn't factor in the cost of having to get back to your original city either.

London has a high departure tax also so you might find flying into London and home from Rome (or elsewhere) to be comparable. You really need to tweak your cities when hunting flights for your dates. It could be cheap to fly into Paris and home from Rome, but not vice versa. You have to try multiple combos like that, but you should be able to find a comparably priced flight.

Wow, thanks everyone. Great suggestions, thanks.

I'm looking on skyscanner for flights. I know I missed early bird but some airlines should still hopefully have some specials coming up.

I would dump Bordeaux just for starters. It is NOT romantic, or even terribly interesting (though better than it was 10 years ago) and there's wine around every corner in France. If you want romantic, bypass Bordeaux and go straight to the Dordogne.

I'd also dump Geneva - booooorrrriiinnngggg!

And I guess to an Aussie these places seem "close to each other," but in reality they aren't, and even though distances may not be long for you, the cultures change in a heartbeat (architecture, language, food, landscape...) so it's very important to figure in your travel time between them.

For hiking in Italy, consider instead of CT going to the Amalfi coast and Capri. There is more variety and less of a problem with unpredictable closures, and there are Pompeii and Naples nearby.

Suggest: Rome, Amalfi coast/Capri, Florence, Venice, someplace if France (Nice and Provence with a car?), Paris, London. Day trips based in Paris and London and probably Florence.

Allow a full wasted day whenever you plan to change location. Check for connection methods and schedules, and don't forget the slack time needed to guarantee not missing a train or plane. Remember, you don't get from a hotel room to a train station instantaneously!

Going from UK to Rome then this and that to Spain, etc. Have you looked at the map!! LOL
And of course it is your trip, but Milan and Bordeaux do not rise to my interest. Provence is more charming to me.
I haven't read all posts but the idea of picking 5 or 6 places and enjoying them with day trips is good.
Just saw your second itinerary and it is better. Bordeaux over Provence or Burgundy?
Two days in Venice is fine.
You'll be sorry you limited Paris to 5, IMO.
And Swiss cities tend to be quite sterile to me, echoing what others may have hinted at.
Glad Spain has been left.

I have a new version of my Italian leg of the trip.

This is a good learning experience as I have not been to Europe - which I am sure is obvious LOL and hence my need for advice!

Starting in Rome, we could spend 3-4 days here, then go to the Amalfi Coast (based on advice that CT is less predictable for hiking given recent landslides), via Naples.
So, with travel at either end, is three days enough (including travel to and from) enough?
Then we would spend four days in AC (is this enough/too much)
To get to Venice, I am assuming we would need to go back to Naples and fly (I found some cheap flights)
Spend a day in Venice and leave the next morning to go to the Dolomites by train
Does anyone have any advice on the best way to do this and where is the best place in the Dolomites to stay and do day hikes from? Also, how many days is enough/too much?

From here, we would most likely have to go back to Venice to get to the next part of the trip, which is France, hopefully starting with the French alps.

I would much rather take the train to Venice. It does not really take longer if you add up the time it takes to get to the airport, survive security, boarding... SIGH. By train you see something of the pretty Italian countryside. And stepping out of the Santa Lucia station in Venice is magic.
I just want to add my vote to all who are urging you to do less and see more. I am from South Africa, and I know when we look at the maps, places in Europe seem so close together. It is not. Do not ignore the cost, as well as the sheer exhaustion and low level stress of navigating stations and airports in languages that you do not understand. It will be much much more romantic to have time to wander, to drink it all in.
Happy planning!

So far the cheapest flights I have found are in and out of London with Royal Brunei (which a friend tells me were good when she travelled with them, apart from the zero alcohol policy!) and they are AU$1550.

Every open jaw search I have tried - flying into Rome and out of Paris; into Rome and out of London; into Paris and out of London; into London and out of Paris - is at least $1000 more, hence why I planned to do London first and then go straight to Rome (it is only around $100 flight in any case and means we wouldn't do Rome at the hotter part of our trip).

Dates are 2 or 3 June, returning 18 July.

> Starting in Rome, we could spend 3-4 days here, then go to the Amalfi Coast (based on advice that CT is less predictable for hiking given recent landslides), via Naples.
So, with travel at either end, is three days enough (including travel to and from) enough?
Then we would spend four days in AC (is this enough/too much

Aside from the fact that 3-4 days really shortchanges Rome IMO, 4 days on the Amalfi Coast is IMO not enough. I think that area deserves at least 1 week, particularly if a central interest is in hiking. But it really depends on your interests.

Like others, I am a bit puzzled by some of your choices, in terms of both having them on your list and the amount of time you are giving them. I wonder what guide books you are using to develop your plans, as they don't seem to be serving you particularly well. As I said before, you will see some wonderful things, but at least from what I know so far, I believe your trip could be much more rewarding if you continue to adjust it.

<Why San Sebastian>

Beautiful San Sebastián is the culinary capital of Spain (if not all of Europe), some of the finest city beaches on the continent, fabulous landscapes and a local culture that people take great pride in. European Capital of Culture 2016. http://www.sansebastianturismo.com/en/

Recently voted the world's fifth best destination by the Condé Nast Traveler:
http://www.sansebastian.co.uk/san-se...fth-best-city/

17 Michelin stars in town (pop 180 000) and according to the world's most famous chef the past decade, Ferran Adrià of now closed El Bulli, the best place to eat in the world "in terms of what you can get at any place you happen to walk into".
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...rink.shopping2

A couple of quite recent articles:
Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/de...lin-stars.html
CNN: http://travel.cnn.com/san-sebastians...erience-736551
NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/tr...anted=all&_r=0

<i>Beautiful San Sebastián is the culinary capital of Spain (if not all of Europe), some of the finest city beaches on the continent, fabulous landscapes and a local culture that people take great pride in. European Capital of Culture 2016.</i>

Is it worth 3 days compared to 4 each for London & Rome?

I think that obviously advice can be subjective, all based on wants and interests. We would love to do San Seb for ALL the reasons listed, which is why our first itinerary was over extending ourselves. We know this, but we also knew that by seeking advice we could work out our main priorities in line with a realistic opportunity to see as much as we can while not trying to do too much to see anything ...

Our main priorities: hiking, bike riding, wine tasting, beach lying and some city experiences (London, Paris, Rome) ... that leaves a plethora of options ... and all only limited by time ...

Are you looking at two separate flights or what most airlines call a multi-city flight?

Multi-city jamikins

Just a few thoughts
1) You can do Champagne in a day trip from Paris. Catch an early TGV into Reims and have a great day.
2) You can make a Champagne trip into a longer trip visiting both Reims and Epernay (train between) or hire bikes and go out and visit smaller champagne houses (ask tourist info)
3) Bordeaux the city is a little dull (great shopping) and can get very humid in June/July (big river lots of heat). Again cycling is very possible. Visiting the better chateaux needs an invitation but there is plenty to taste all over the place and even some of the villages offer a central tasting and buying area (like a shop)

This link on Champage and Bordeaux cycling may help
http://www.mybikeguide.co.uk/Champagne_Cellars.php
http://www.mybikeguide.co.uk/Champagne_Guide.php
http://www.mybikeguide.co.uk/Bordeaux_Guide.php

San Sebastián would also be excellent for bike riding and hiking + all the reasons mentioned above; food, beaches etc.

Hiking tips:
http://www.olivertheworld.com/kids-t...-san-sebastian
http://www.everytrail.com/browse.php...Basque+Country
http://www.wandermap.net/en/regional...San+Sebastian/

Bike riding is a national sport, both for professionals and others. Tons of great routes: http://www.mapmyride.com/es/san-seba...asque-country/
Mountain bike routes: http://www.basquemtb.com/mountain-bike-holiday-spain/
In the city: http://nicfreeman.com/2012/06/20/cyc...bastian-spain/

When it comes to wine, you're very close to the Rioja Alavesa region: http://www.rutadelvinoderiojaalavesa.com/en/
http://tourism.euskadi.net/en/rioja-alavesa/

>>>>Every open jaw search I have tried - flying into Rome and out of Paris; into Rome and out of London; into Paris and out of London; into London and out of Paris - is at least $1000 more,<<<<

Just because you can't find them, doesn't mean we can't. You have to list your departure city in order for us to help you with flights. London (or UK) is usually more because of high departure tax.

I like the Rome/Amalfi Coast/Venice new portion of your trip. I agree with kja that you need more time in Rome and the AC. The AC needs more time, in part, because it takes some effort to get there. I usually stay a minimum of 5 days and usually a full week. Amazing scenery, hiking and beaches. Be sure to get the Sunflower hiking book - lots of good information.

I was going to ask the same question, Jamikins: are you sure you're looking at the multi-city option vs. two one-way flights? I ask this only because I made the same mistake for years when others would suggest open-jaw flights. I robbed myself - not just the $$$ for the travel back to the landing city, but more importantly of one or two precious travel days.