Thanks for clarifying, mikelg -- it sounds like I'm really fortunate to have visited Castro Urdiales when I did, and I once again thank YOU for making sure I included it in my plan for that trip -- at the time, it was well worth seeing, IMO.

No need to be "wowwed" by my memory -- I'm always awed that people like you take the time to help me plan my trips. :) I don't always act on all the advice I get, but I certainly benefit from hearing from other Fodorites, and I know that my trip to northern Spain was infinitely better than it would have been because you and others took the time to provide your comments. So, once again, eskierrik asko, Mikel!

Maribel, the Michelin guide you recommended just arrived. I have the DK from the library. Now that I have a better sense for an itinerary, I will figure out which Michelin maps that you suggested will provide the most value and then order them. In the meantime, I can read some more and make decisions while we will be babysitting for 2 weeks and the kids are in school. I feel so much better now that I picked the locations “basis” for where to stay. I will use your list of hotel chains to start evaluating accommodation options in these places.

kja, I am with you. I never reserve accommodations that I cannot cancel for 2 reasons:

1. Too risky. At any age, but particularly as one gets older many things can go wrong.
2. I buy travel insurance. In order to have the pre-existing conditions waiver, I have to insure all pre-payments and all non-refundable amounts. As a result, having non-cancellable reservations would make the travel insurance considerably more expensive.

Also as you mentioned, different approaches, strategies for planning a trip can work well for some, but not for others.

The help I got on this forum put me on the right track and I truly appreciate the time the experts spent by offering feedback and advice.

Suzanna,
The Michelin green guide is going to be very helpful as will the DK Northern Spain.

The orange Michelin regional maps 572 (Asturias/Cantabria), 573 (España Norte-Basque Country/Navarra) and 575 (Castilla y León) can be purchased through Amazon or Barnes & Noble.
The green Michelin zoom maps 142 (Asturias/Costa Verde), 143 (Costa de Cantabria) and 144 (Pirineos Atlánticos/Pirineo Vasco-Navarro) are the very detailed ones that I simply never leave home without (but I love printed maps and annotate them).
You can try to find the zoom maps on Amazon, but they're not available through B&N. I usually purchase them when in Spain. But in your case it would be wise to have them ahead of time for your planning.

Thanks, Maribel. I usually buy from Amazon, I have a Prime account. I will look into it.

I started looking for accommodations for Bilbao. Since my sister will be with us, I decided to look for an apartment hotel or apartment with 2 bedrooms in Bilbao. Found two at the following addressees:

8 Santa Clara Kalea 1-C, 48006 Bilbao

Miribilla Kalea Primero derecha, 48003, Bilbao

If you are familiar with Bilbao neighborhoods, are these safe areas? If so, which one would be a better location for us (knowing that we will have a car and out the 4 days we will be there, 2 will be spent in Bilbao and 2 away)? Thanks

Santa Clara is close to my birthplace and first 22 years of life in Bilbao. Both are safe (Bilbao is a very safe city with a very low crime rate, as the rest of Spain), a normal neighbourhood, very well linked to the old town by metro (one stop) or simply walking. Miribilla is a new area very close to the city center and old town, but not so close to any metro station. Parking in the street is metered (0900 to 1330-1500 to 2000), Mo-Fri and Saturday only in the morning, not many public parkings nearby in any. Parking may be an issue, maybe a bit less in Miribilla (by the way, great Arena in the area). I´d take Santa Clara is location is prime.

Thanks a lot mikelg for the quick and very helpful answer. I was inclined already to take the Santa Clara apt. based on its description. They have free parking included. I will reserve and think of you when we will be there.

It´s a busy, lively neighborhood, full of bars and local atmosphere, you´re going to love it. Built in the 60s for all the immigrants arriving from the rest of Spain to find better job conditions in the factories around Bilbao. Apartment blocks, but safe, lively and very close to Santutxu metro station. I was there yesterday having a few glasses of wine with old friends in the bars in the area.

Based on the description, I am sure I will like the area. Thanks.

I am very sad as there are no rooms at the 2 Paradors in Santillana for our nights...

I reserved (cancellable) 2 rooms at Posada Araceli in Santillana (located on Revolgo 20). They have reasonable rates, a simple, inexpensive breakfast and most reviews are positive. Supposedly there is free public parking nearby (we will have a car) The other option is Casa Rural chimenea Cántabra, located 2 km from Santillana, in Oreña. It's a private apartment with 2 bedrooms, for about $50 less, no b-fast.

We will have 2 nights and essentially one day for Santillana. If you are familiar with these locations, I'd appreciate your feedback. Would the stay at Posada Araceli be a more practical one (location wise)?

There is public parking outside of the historic quarter of the village for those staying within the inner core, and vehicles must park in the public lot and must pay a parking fee. But.... the Araceli sits outside of the historic quarter. I visited the street when looking at the Casona de Revolgo. There may be street parking (but not on a weekend when the village gets slammed with day trippers) or the hotel may have a small lot for guests. The booking.com and TA reviews indicate that it does provide free parking.

If you only have one day for visiting Santillana and the neo caves of Altamira, the Posada Araceli is the better option.

Santillana can be seen in one hour, the neocave (buy tickets in advance) is more a museum than a cave, and I strongly recommend to visit the nearby caves of El Castillo, Las Monedas, Cullalvera, Covalanas...and so on, https://cuevas.culturadecantabria.com/en/, so you can see the real thing and real prehistoric caves and paintings (visits normally in Spanish, but guides speak English and they´ll translate part of the explanations to you). Don´t miss Comillas (El Capricho by Gaudi), Cartes, Liérganes, Carmona...

Suzanna,
I agree with mikelg about the neo-cave being more of a museum. As I mentioned upthread, I felt that it wasn't a particularly well done replica like Lascaux II, but it's easily accessible if you don't want to attempt the real thing. Cantabria is Spain's center for Paleolithic art. We loved our visit to El Castillo (with paved trails), Las Monedas and Covalanas, but as mikelg notes, you need to reserve all in advance and upthread you mentioned:

"I am not a “cave person”, I have trouble in places which are not paved (foot problems)
Are there any on the way that have paved “trails” inside and are well lit? Any with lots of stalactites and stalagmites in addition to the Palaeolithic ones?"

The caves of Soplao we found to be very interesting, filled with fascinating stalactites and stalagmites. You're taken into the cave via a mine train and the trail is well lit. For us it was an easy visit, complete accessible. It's a 45-minute drive southwest of Santillana. I believe that kja has visited as well. But again, for all these cave visits, one needs to reserve in advance.
https://www.elsoplao.es/en/a-unique-cave.

Mikelg suggested a visit to lovely, very pretty Liérganes. We've stayed there at a Casona and find the village far, far less touristed than Santillana Del Mar. It's a 35-minute drive southeast of Santillana. And mikelg's other suggestion: Carmona in the stunning Cabuérniga valley is also beautiful and still relatively untouched by tourism. It sits about 45 minutes southwest of Santillana, if you want to visit two still unspoiled, charming, stone villages in the heart of Cantabria on your Cantabria loop.

Re: Santillana de Mar: Personally, I like to be able to walk to dinner, relax, have some wine, and then stroll through an old town afterwards, so for me, there'd be no question -- I'd take the option in town. YMMV.

As for the caves, Maribel is right (what a memory!), I did visit most of those caves -- and I feel so lucky to have done so! FWIW, my recollections are:

• Tito Bustillo -- you can only see part, but oh, what a wonderful part it is! As I remember, the surface on which we walked was smooth and flat. It was cold -- bring a wrap!
• El Soplao -- visited for its unusual geological formations; no prehistoric art. As Maribel described, there's a train (I had forgotten that! but such fun! :) thanks for the reminder, Maribel!), and I'm pretty sure there are a few places where one gets off and walks around on flat surfaces.
• Museo de Altamira -- a reproduction, nothing like Lascaux or the Grotte Chauvet, more of an opportunity to see a 3-D recreation of the ceiling, and in that context (and without the expectation of a good reproduction of the art per se), well worth seeing IMO.
• Hornos de la Peña -- I was extraordinarily lucky to have gone alone and ended up with a guide who knew that cave inside and out and who chose to spend more than 2 hours (rather than the usual hour) with me. I also remember that the ONLY lights were from our respective flashlights. He carefully guided me through areas where the surfaces were relatively flat, but I also remember shimmying into small spaces on my back, with barely enough room to wiggle inside and then reach out for the flashlight he was waiting to hand me. Utterly awesome, and something he admitted was not part of the regular tour. :)
• Las Monedas and El Castillo of Monte Castillo (next to one another, so easily paired if you can time the tickets properly) -- wonderful! Again, my recollection is that the main paths were well surfaced. These caves have some spectacular stalactites and stalagmites, in addition to prehistoric art.

If you have any interest in prehistoric art, I'd recommend seeing one or more. For me, they are the places of dreams. :star:

What kja said!!!:tu:
(El Soplao is even wheelchair accessible)

@ Maribel -- thanks for confirming! That I have vivid memories of these caves is, unfortunately, no guarantee that those memories reflect reality. ;)

Thanks a lot Maribel, mikelg and kja for the additional great info and advice. I will stick to (at least for now) with Araceli, to ensure that I have a place to stay that looks acceptable. I will try to look up Casona, Carmona and the other locations mentioned by mikelg, to see how they fit with everything else and the time we will have and also check accommodations some of them offer (maybe instead of Santillana). Based on what you mentioned, I definitely want to visit at least one of the caves with prehistoric art (El Castillo of Monte Castillo seems to be the most accessible one) and El Soplao, in addition to the neocave. Hopefully the reservation for them for September can wait for 2-3 more weeks after I get accommodations. Right now, while baby sitting the grandkids I have only limited time to do the homework.

Maribel, the Araceli has only 5 parking spots and they cannot be reserved. Their description of parking availability is somewhat misleading. Hopefully the public one close to them that they mention will be available and then we can walk to the historic center/use the car as needed to go to all other locations.

Thanks again!

Suzanna,
Thanks for the explanation about the Araceli parking spots. The Araceli is only a short walk to the historic center of Santillana. Santillana does revert in the evening to its pretty medieval self after all the tour buses and day trippers leave and the souvenir shops close. I wasn't too surprised that both Paradors were booked because Santillana is often the first overnight stop for passengers coming off the Portsmouth-Santander ferry.

When we vacation in Cantabria we often choose our accommodations from the Club de Calidad Cantabria Infinita group of mansions, palaces and charming inns. The group includes nice restaurants as well. This is how we found the Casona El Arral in Liérganes.
But for Cantabria, the ones in Santillana aren't in town, and El Arral in Liérganes wouldn't make for a better 2-night home base instead of Santillana because it sits southeast rather than southwest of Santander. You might want to visit it, though, on your way west from Bilbao, as mikelg suggests.

Cantabria Infinita Quality Club.

We found the El Castillo caves to be quite accessible via the 45-minute tour. You don't necessarily need to do the La Moneda as well if you don't have the time. There is a car park and a path that leads up the hill to the entrance to the caves.
After our visit we took a very pleasant walk along the vía verde del Pas, the pedestrian green way in the town of Puente Viesgo, that starts near the Gran Hotel Balneario. The Pas valley, Valle del Pas, is exceptionally pretty. Be sure to try the local sweet treats, Sobaos Pasiegos and Quesadas Pasiegas if you get a chance.

Here's the official link for all the Cantabrian prehistoric caves for your planning-
https://cuevas.culturadecantabria.com.

Maribel, many thanks for taking this much time on a weekend for all the details. I have looked already at the local hotel chains that you previously listed, but at least until now I could not find something that is in the locations where we plan to stop and would fit in our budget. Club de Calidad Cantabria Infinita has the Parador and Hotel Casa del Marqués in Santillana. Casa del Marques (for the 2 rooms that we would need) is more than what we could pay. So probably I will just stick to what I already reserved. I am saving on the side all the suggestions, so when I get into the day-by-day planning I have them handy. Thanks again!

You're welcome, Suzanna. I forgot that the Parador and Hotel Casa del Marqués are also member of the Club de Calidad. I don't think that the Hotel Casa del Marqués is really worth the money spent, so don't worry, just keep what you have reserved.

Little bit of good news: I have reservations for 3 of the locations where we plan to stay. I am glad that I can experience a Parador, I have a reservation near Vitoria at Parador de Argomaniz. I still need one for Burgos.
The bad news is that one of my European flights was cancelled and I had to pay double for tickets with a different airline. In addition, the host for the apartment I reserved in Bilbao after a lot of research canceled my reservation.... So I am back to research. I found quite a few apartments that (according to their descriptions) would fit our needs and are reasonably priced. However, I do not know which one to pick based on the neighborhoods they are in. VRBO and Airbnb do not publish exact addresses, only areas. Some appear to be in Indautxu, Atxuri, Abando, Casco Viejo. Many appear to be close to the Guggenheim Museum. I captured small screen shots of the maps but I do not know how to add attachments...

Any suggestions regarding area to pick, would be much appreciated.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...51123b1225.png
Manuela
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...18bd89e8b0.png
Alex

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...5ac558c09c.png
Manuela

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...6c9c1b6a84.png
Amaia


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...10b35eb749.png
Ibone

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...733496930e.png
Iratxe


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...7f6cc717c9.png
Patricia

Suzanna,
A quick question: Is the "Iratxe" this one, a 2 bedroom?
https://www.vrbo.com/10368006ha

If so, it's just a quick walk from the Guggenheim and a great neighborhood, imo.

Thanks, Maribel. Yes, that's the one. This apartment however is on my "wait list", I sent a question and I am waiting for the answer. Is any of the other ones a not so "practical area"? Is any place close to Guggenheim a good place? My preference at this time is Alex and Manuela (which by mistake is uploaded twice).

Yes, any place close to the Guggenheim is a good place. I hope that the apartment comes off the wait list because the location is ideal.

Is the Alex this one?
https://www.vrbo.com/10185287ha

If so, also an excellent location.

Thanks, Maribel. I didn't want to post links for these places because I didn't want to ask people to spend time going to them. I thought that the little maps would do the job. The Alex one is at Airbnb

https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/plus/30...0PtQ7r3PXCWsUZ

Two others I am looking at:

https://www.vrbo.com/10143633ha?adul...ure=2020-09-19

https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1978171...oG52GnpVWz6eIb

The Alex is fine.
If the last airbnb is within 50 meters of the Guggenheim, yes, it's also a fine location.

That said, I'll leave it to our Bilbao native mikelg, to opine on all of these.

Thanks again, Maribel. After a bit of agony, I reserved Alex for Bilbao and also found a place I liked in Burgos. So I am now breathing relived. If life cooperates with my plans, I will get back to planning towards the end of February, after a week of cross country skiing. I will start the day-to-day planning and make all needed local reservations for places that require them. Our trip is 6 weeks: London, Northern Spain, Berlin and Hungary, with a hop to Transylvania. I have accommodations reserved for all places.

I could have not done it without the help I got from the experts on this forum, so many thanks.

It appears that thankfully the virus that infected the Fodor's servers and was attacking Apple computers was eradicated. It was such a royal pain to deal with it.

Happy planning to all of you and I will be back.

Glad you were able to reserve Alex for your dates. Look forward to your future planning.

Hi again, Fodorites:

I am trying to get back in planning mode and looking at information I copied out that I felt will be useful. I somehow got a few months to mikelg's blogs (?) and forgot to copy the URL. Now I only have a paper copy of 2 days in Bilbao without a car, and many other vary helpful sections of what he published a while ago (but probably still valid) and I cannot go to the links in the articles....

I do not know if mikelg is still reading these posts, but I am hoping that he or maybe someone else can send me a link to his blogs/articles in English. They would be of great help if I could get back to them. Unfortunately I cannot remember how I got to them in the first place.... Thanks.

My pleasure, with many thanks....https://mugalari.wordpress.com/2010/...ar-the-basics/, it´s just a bit outdated. Some places don´t exist any more, like La Granja café (I´m still in shock, such a gem has been replaced by Thermomix), or Café Boulevard (closed, seemingly forever). Café Iruña is undergoing renovation and will reopen in July this year. The rest of the info is correct, but please feel welcome to send me a message if you need further info. In any case, it´s a walkable city, with excellent public transport and lots of pedestrian streets.

Thanks a lot mikelg for your quick reply, the link and your offer. This link should also take me back to your other useful articles from where I made copies.

Once when you have the time, I would like to understand why one should not accept the plate handed by the waiter in a pintxo bar or order them from the list on the wall. Obviously not urgent.

Thanks to you, Suzanna. Well, it´s all about the local way. First of all, there are hundreds of bars and most are very close to each other. Bars show open doors and families and kids are welcome. They are not places to drink, but places to socialize, to meet friends and family. Pintxos are normally laid out in the counter, or can also be made on order in some places (more elaborate and more expensive). In Bilbao, for example (pintxos are all over the place in the Basque Country, not only San Sebastian), we just take them with our hands, normally just one per bar, and to go with a "small" drink, like a glass of wine, a "zurito" (half beer), a cider (not sweet, not carbonated) or a txakoli (local white wine). We are not eating, we are not dining or "lunching", it´s just a way to lessen the influence of alcohol (getting drunk is just out of the question, totally unacceptable) and to enjoy an excellent piece of food. Normally, standing, as we spend normally less than 15min in each place.

If the waiter hands you the plate and you fill it up with pintxos, and you sit down and eat 6 pintxos...what do you do next?? You´ll be missing the pintxos and the atmosphere of other places, because you´ll be stuffed. Pintxos are very different from place to place, there may be 5,000 different kinds, and the fun consists on tasting different ones in different places (each bar has some pintxos which are special). Just remember, you´re not having a meal, you´re just enjoying the local atmosphere and some high gastronomy in a very small and affordable way.

I´m sure you´ll understand it when you get here, it´s easy, it´s fun and it´s very entertaining!! We should also talk sometime about how to order wine, also different than in other countries...

Thanks, mikelg. I do understand, but as you said, experiencing it will make a difference.

I contacted the Pozalagua cave that you mentioned, for some additional information which I am waiting for. Their website has a calendar for buying tickets online which seems to be all blocked out, so I am not sure how can one avoid driving there and not find tickets. I will wait for their reply. It looks like a very interesting place, out of our itinerary but maybe I can include it. Thanks for the many suggestions in your blogs.

Worth a visit, but take into account that on the second half of September they´ll only open on weekends. You´ll need a car to get there, and if by chance you are lucky to visit them, I´d also visit the Torre Loizaga castle and the unique collection of Rolls Royces and other classic automobiles, a must...that only opens on weekends too.

If you like caves, I´d visit El Castillo or Las Monedas caves in neighboring Cantabria region, just a bit over one hour drive from Bilbao. Full of beautiful prehistoric paintings that you can actually see, and worth paying an exclusive tour in English (not expensive and you´ll have the language and the exclusivity guaranteed). https://cuevas.culturadecantabria.com/en/, also Cullalvera (high up...) and Covalanas are worth the visit.

Thanks, mikelg. I do have a foot problem which prevents me from going up/down on many stairs, steep or very uneven surfaces. So I am looking at each cave to make sure that I can avoid those that are not appropriate for me. Maribel suggested a cave with prehistoric paintings that would be easy to do.

We will see how the itinerary/timing works out for all of this (I see that about 6 km of the road to the cave are very windy, so they will take more time than Google shows). We will not have time for everything in the 11 full days we will be in the area. I am also not sure yet if they have tours every hour (wait time ?) or if one can go in without a tour if there are not enough people. We would not understand the guide anyway, as our Spanish is very rudimentary and the guide supposedly doesn't speak English. I am following up with the cave staff regarding this.

We are supposed to land in Bilbao around 6pm on a Monday. We will pick up our car, drive to the apartment that is about 10 min walk from Guggenheim, unload our belongings and then park the car. After that, I would probably want to just stroll around for an hour or so and maybe have a bite. Any close by streets, locations for the stroll? I know that on Mondays it is hard to find open places for eating. Any suggestions for a place for a light meal around 8-9 pm that might be open? What is the open timeframe for supermarkets? Thanks.

Bilbao is a city, so even if many places close on Mondays (something quite common all over Spain), there´ll be many places open. Not sure where your apartment is, but if you go to the area of Henao-Heros-Juan de Ajuriaguerra streets there are quite a few places that should be open for a light meal. Eveything in Bilbao is at walking distance. Also, Diputación street will offer open places, as well as Ledesma street. Bars and places to have a bite is our specialty! Supermarkets close around 8- 0830pm, there´s one (just one...) that does not close, Opencor in Alameda de Recalde street.

Street parking is metered, in case you don´t have a garage in your apartment, and quite complicated to find empty spots...

Thanks for the very helpful info, mikelg. We are away from home, so I don't have here the address of the apartment, but since places are within walking distance, we should not have any issues. The apartment comes with a parking spot in a garage.

Suzanna,
In post #53, I suggested a visit to the caves of Soplao in Cantabria, as it's tailor made for tourists, even wheelchair accessible, with a cafeteria, shop, restrooms, and one enters the cave via a mine train. It's a unique experience But as kja notes in post #54, people visit for the unusual geological formations, the stalactites and stalagmites. There's no prehistoric art.

It sits an hour, 50-minute drive WEST of Bilbao, a fairly easy exit from the A8 motorway and is well signed. The web page has detailed driving directions. One should book online.
https://www.elsoplao.es/en.