European Sampler, 4 weeks, 6 countries?
 

Hello! Next summer (2018) my daughter(20), daughter-in-law(24), and I(old body, young mind) are planning a trip to Europe. This is the first real substantial international vacation for any of us, and we're trying to do it on a budget, getting the most bang for our bucks. In reading posts here, I see the main theme of advice is to plan for fewer locations with more time in each. Our wish list looks like this -
Scotland, England, France, Amsterdam, Denmark, Germany - but I know many of you are going to suggest paring that down. That's why I'm here. Our main focus will be Vistas & views, with some history & museums thrown in. More cultural experiences & fewer touristy things. I have this idea of Europe as being a great hub for cheap travel - trains, busses, and bicycles - but maybe I've seen too many movies.
Anyway,we're starting our planning long in advance to help find our way around the obstacles and discover fun, cheap ways to enjoy the whole experience. Our main lodgings will be AirBnB's. Lengthy travel is my biggest worry, financially speaking.

These are our "must see"s... London, Paris, Amsterdam, Dachau, and somewhere else as yet undetermined in Germany, as my son will be deployed there during the time of our vacation.

I appreciate and cherish any and all advice (even criticisms) from you wonderful seasoned travelers!

Pam

Budget and the cities of London,Paris and Amsterdam don't go well together. Three of the most expensive cities in Europe.

The only upside is you can take the train from London to Paris and then on to Amsterdam

Berlin is much more economical and has quite a few high quality museums

I must admit that I disagree with Traveler_Nick, in that I think you can find ways to travel on a budget in London, Paris, and Amsterdam – even if it can pose some challenges. But you are planning well in advance, and while these aren’t the cheapest locations in Europe (in terms of AVERAGE costs), they are by NO means among the MOST costly.

I think you are wise to begin planning this far in advance and to be focused on how to limit your wish list. That’s always a hard process, and trust me, any experienced travel knows how hard that can be!

I would suggest one tweak to your “must see” list – because Dachau is so close to Munich, consider including Munich as a corrolary. So you’ve got London, Paris, Amsterdam, Munich / Dachau, and one other place in Germany, and you’ve got 4 weeks with which to work.

IMO, this list of cities could easily fill your time. Just for to illustrate, that could be 7 nights in London and Paris (say 5 days for each, 1 day for a day trip from each, 1 day for transportation for each transition); 5 nights in Amsterdam and Munich (3 days for each, 1 day for a day trip from each, 1 day for transportation for each transition) + a few days with your son, plus your travel days to and from Europe.

BUT it really depends on what YOU want to see and do.

Here's what I recommend: Get some good guidebooks (or spend some time with a few in your local library) and plot your wish list on a calendar. Try to get a really good handle on how much time you want in your major stops – London and Paris in particular. Each time you propose to change locations, pencil in your transportation, add some time on either side (for getting to/from your lodging, checking in/out, packing/unpacking, getting oriented, etc.). (Each change of location can be "costly" as it is time that you will not have to see or do anything.)

It might help if the 3 of you (and/or anyone else who might join you) can agree on one very basic question: Is your goal to "sample" each of these places, or is your goal to see your highest priorities in each of them? IME, that's where things get really tricky....

And here’s another idea: Divide and conquer! One of you researches the UK (London and Scotland), another studies (say) France and Amsterdam, and the other looks at Denmark & Germany (just for example), and then you come together and rule a few places in/out and switch off to do further research on the remaining question marks.

If you can’t get an anchor on the specific location of your son’s deployment, try to get a sense of WHEN you would be able to see him, and then consider booking into London and out of Munich or vice versa, depending on when you would be most likely to be able to see him.

Definitely plan on trains and buses. And meals of bread and cheese and fruit and veggies are a great way to keep costs down, but be sure to give yourselves a few REAL meals in a trip of a month’s length.

Hope that helps! I’ll look forward to hearing how your plans progress.

The pound is plummeting, so I'd keep London on the list.

Your most expensive destination is Paris, because you won't be able to use AirBnb there.

For Amsterdam, bear in mind that the Netherlands' fabulous train network means you can stay in a neighboring town of great interest and yet visit Amsterdam very easily. In fact, if "vistas and views" are so doubly important, and you want cultural immersion over museums, give a lot of considering to staying in Utrecht, and visiting Amsterdam from there.

Munich is a great airport hub, so you should be able to fit Dachau into your trip quite easily, as well getting to wherever your son will be.

But I think your priority right now should be to figure out what you want to see and do in Paris & how much time you need there, and how much that will cost you. Then I think it will become clearer how to deal with the rest of the trip. I would also see if you can figure out what might be the cheapest air fare. The website Flyer Talk might have a lot of tips for you. The obvious guesses might not be the cheapest in reality -- but it really depends on what's flying in and out the nearest airport to wherever you live.

Can I say that in your research look at all of the Netherlands not just Amsterdam. There is a whole country here which is very different to Amsterdam.

For cheap accommodation in London, look at University halls of residence - they are empty of students from about mid-june to beg September so if your travel dates are during that time, that may save you some money.

http://www.universityrooms.com/en/ci...0aAsixEALw_wcB

Also look for 2 for 1 deals on attractions like the Tower of London etc - you need to buy a railway ticket [not underground] to qualify but after that, you're in business.

https://www.daysoutguide.co.uk/2for1-london

Overall I agree that you need to be disciplined in what you try to see - an endless diet of cities will not give you many vistas and views. For that you need to get out into the countryside, which might well prove cheaper than cities too. Good luck with your planning.

Discipline is everything.

great advice above

Most British museums are free

Eat and drink as the locals do, so, for example in France drink the "pichet" wine and the "robinet" water rather than the expensive bottled water and bottled wine. In the UK find out about lunch time sandwiches from say M&S or Greggs. Avoid International brands, sugary drinks etc.

Generally ethnic restaurants and vegetarian restaurants give you the best bang for your buck.

One thing that will surprise you is that restaurant meal sizes may be smaller than you are used to. Similarly there is no such concept as a bottomless coffee pot etc etc.

I'd read up on seat61.com to understand trains and how to get the best deals

www.seat61.com as suggested is essential for all things about trains.
www.skyscanner.com for no-frills, one-way air fares.
Moving around a lot costs money so you have already come to grips with the idea of slowing down.
A few other ideas: Eat your main meal at noon. The fixed-price menu will offer fewer choices than in the evening but at more economical prices. Coffee is costly in that cute corner bistro and priced three ways: cheapest standing at the bar, extra to sit down, even more to sit on the terrace. So sip slowly, which applies to beer/wine too. Prepared meals are commonly found in department stores to take home for the evening, or from the local equivalent of a deli.
One more: Arrange your trans-Atlantic flight to fly into one city and home from another, using the multi-destination search function on most agency and airline sites.

One other caution: You're correct to spot that here "the main theme of advice is to plan for fewer locations with more time in each" but be aware that this might mean a more expensive 4 week trip. When this advice is aimed at people trying to see 6 countries in 10 days with little lead time in planning, those travelers inevitably need to pony up for extra plane flights & fast trains. But you won't save money if you spend longer time in expensive locations.

I've seen trip reports here where people parked themselves in fairly expensive cities -- where the costs of food & lodging are much higher than in smaller towns in the same countries. They saw everything they wanted to see in the city within 2 or 3 days and spent the rest of their time on trains, going to and from small town sightseeing, back to the same city every night. For groups of 3 or 4 they were spending any much a 35e to 60e per day on train tickets, plus their nightly hotel costs + restaurant bills were easily 20e to 40e higher than if they had simply checked out of the city when they were through with what they wanted to see, picked up their suitcases and gone to a smaller town.

All that really matters in the end is that they enjoyed their trip, but there is nothing automatically thrifty about restricting yourself to fewer destinations. With 4 weeks, you have the luxury of time that won't force you to opt for expensive transportation in order to move around quickly. You needn't pay for taxis, planes & the fastest trains to make your 4 week itinerary work. If you don't like changing lodgngs, don't. But that's a personal choice and the insistence that multiple destinations is a no-no for everybody doesn't hold up in reality for millions of happy travelers to Europe.

For trains yes www.seat61.com is great and I also always recommend a look at www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com (superb online European Planning & Rail Guide for lots of suggested rail itineraries in countries.)

Agree with ann's suggestion about university accommodation - I stay in the LSE dorms if I am in London during university vacations:

http://www.lsevacations.co.uk/Home.asp

Lots of wonderful free museums in London, and with three of you you can save some money with 2-for-1 vouchers - do a search here.

If your lodging includes a full English breakfast the advice to eat your main meal at lunch won't work - I usually have a sandwich at a Pret a Manger - note that it is cheaper to do take out ("to go") as you pay less tax. Picnic! Staying in LSE's super-central Grosvenor House I get a kitchen and can pick up groceries at the M&S nearby.

I highly recommend reading Rick Steves' "Europe through the Back Door" and "The Rough Guide to First Time Europe".

In general I agree with the above advice. From someone living in Austria and *always* (or at least it seems that way) planning one holiday after another, basing in one location does not always equate to less expensive travel. An apartment in a great location may allow for preparing breakfast and dinner and lower lodging costs, but those charges may be offset with travel costs for day trips.

There are so many other questions to consider, as well. I will use Vienna, where we live, as an example, though I am aware the city is not on your list:

How do you define, "cultural experiences?" Here in Vienna that can mean anything from a €3,80 Melange at an outdoor cafe to a €125 opera ticket.

"Vista Views" can be the equivalent of a €2,40 transit ticket to the top of Kahlenberg for panoramas over the city, followed by a walk down through the vineyards to a heuriger (major "cultural experience"). And so forth.

Best to set aside an afternoon where everyone gets together with their "Bucket Lists" as well as guidebooks; and access to projected transportation and lodging costs.

Happy Planning!

Regarding researching more of the Netherlands than just Amsterdam. Just visited and have to say that I enjoyed staying in Delft, Lisse and Haarlem more than Amsterdam. Amsterdam was for the museums mainly. The smaller towns were for scenery and once in a lifetime sights such as windmills and tulips! Had really great food everywhere and yes the trans system is excellent.

I do have one question. Does it HAVE to be summer? Its the most crowded and expensive time to visit. To say nothing of heat and humidity. Have you considered spring or fall?

since you all are under 26 investigate the Eurail Youthpasses - 2nd class vs 1st cl for 'adults' but much cheaper and same other benefits.

You mention Scotland but apparently it fell out of your 'musts'?

Two weeks in the UK (London and some of England), a week divided between Paris and Amsterdam, a week or two in Germany -- gives you a week to play with. If you do want to fit in Scotland - that week could be spent there. Or add some more time to France.

>>since you all are under 26 <<

Nope -- sorta difficult for an under 26 to have a 20 yo daughter or a 24 you D-i-L.

<<since you all are under 26 investigate the Eurail Youthpasses - 2nd class vs 1st cl for 'adults' but much cheaper and same other benefits.>>

Waiting to see where a 26 or under woman has a 20-year old daughter and a son who's presumably older (considering the DIL is 24). Even the most backwards humans haven't pulled that off.

To the OP: what is ON A BUDGET to you? Everyone is on a budget, whether it's you or a Russian petrogarch. The question is what are your limits? The other question is whether you're willing to give up location for price by staying outside the city centers and traveling in on public transit.

You can't airbnb in Paris - as stated before. Any rental is likely illegal, which means you could book it, show up, and have no place to stay and no recourse because illegal contracts are not enforceable by the victim of the breach.

Denmark (and the other Scandinavian countries and Finland) is more expensive than much of the rest of Europe, especially for daily needs like food.

There are many reasonable, clean central hotels in Paris, quite a few with 3-bed rooms. An idea of what you want to spend per night would help.

You initially mention Scotland then it sort of gets put aside. This is probably intuitive but to maximize time and minimize cost, it usually makes sense to fly to your furthest point and home from nearest or vice versa. Saves doubling back. Something to consider.

Some museum fees can add up so do research ahead. As mentioned, most of the top museums in London are free. There are plenty of low cost food options in all the cities you're considering from grocery stores, bakeries, street food, pubs, cafés, etc. Restaurants often post menus so you can decide before you commit.

One more thing to consider: Do any of you have hotel points? My sweetie and I spent 10 days in Paris for free using Marriott points. Frequent flier miles can also help with air fares. But in my experience, ff miles have gotten harder to spend and hotel points easier to spend.

Also, now is the time to think about how you will pay for things on your trip. You will (maybe each of you) want a credit card that does not charge for foreign exchange. For most credit cards, the current surcharge for foreign exchange is 3%, but there are many cards that charge nothing. Look at a local Credit union or smaller bank or look at the many affinity cards from Chase. Often, a bank will offer both cards that do and do not charge for foreign exchange. You also want to be able to access money from your bank account via an ATM in each country you visit. If you bank with one of the big banks in the US, you will likely be charged 3% for foreign exchange plus $5 per withdrawal. As above, smaller banks and credit unions often offer a much better deal, maybe no charge for use of an ATM plus only 1% on foreign exchange is not uncommon. But you will have to shop for this account. Also, brokerage accounts often offer an ATM card that has no foreign exchange charges, and mine even reimburses me for any ATM fees, which you likely will not encounter in Europe if you use bank ATMs and no ATMs owned, for instance, by Travelex.

As you can see, credit cards and ATMs can eat up a fair amount of money if you aren't careful. Or, they can reward you with points or miles that can help defray the cost of your trip.

airbnb says Paris is its top place for folks using the service and the thousands of listings are not all likely to be illegal but 60-70% may be - it's a complex issue and BigRuss is right to warn folks - read these articles before booking:

https://bonjourparis.com/apartments/...-rental-legal/

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2...legal-listings

http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/20...airbnb-renters

OMGosh, you people are absolutely amazing, and so helpful! Such great advice in such short time. I've had 19 responses in 24 hours! I've only read through about 6 at this point but wanted to comment quickly before I forget things.

First, we are very flexible, and actually would prefer the smaller, outer "suburbs" or nearby towns to staying right in Paris or Amsterdam. Traveling to and fro is, IMO, part of the joy & wonder. I just am not savvy on the transportation availability.

We'll definitely pick up some guide books (Google Netherlands Guide Book?) and start studying. Reference meals, my preference (as a "thrifty" person) is to buy food/meals and picnic or cook in our lodging. Someone above mentioned no AirBnB in... Paris? Not sure which city it was but... Is that some kind of city/country law/policy?

Thank you, thank you, thank you for all of the responses so far! These are going to make things so much easier and, hopefully, will avoid many more problems.

Pam

OMGosh, you people are absolutely amazing, and so helpful! Such great advice in such short time. I've had 19 responses in 24 hours! I've only read through about 6 at this point but wanted to comment quickly before I forget things.

First, we are very flexible, and actually would prefer the smaller, outer "suburbs" or nearby towns to staying right in Paris or Amsterdam. Traveling to and fro is, IMO, part of the joy & wonder. I just am not savvy on the transportation availability.

We'll definitely pick up some guide books (Google Netherlands Guide Book?) and start studying. Reference meals, my preference (as a "thrifty" person) is to buy food/meals and picnic or cook in our lodging. Someone above mentioned no AirBnB in... Paris? Not sure which city it was but... Is that some kind of city/country law/policy?

Thank you, thank you, thank you for all of the responses so far! These are going to make things so much easier and, hopefully, will avoid many more problems.

Pam

Whoops, sorry for the duplicate post above... I'm not very familiar with this site yet. Couldn't find a way to delete one. I also can't find a way to "subscribe" to my post in order to get email updates when there is a response. Not sure if that's an option on this forum or not.

Anyway, to Dayle. Unfortunately yes, it has to be summer. My daughter is in college, so the trip has to be between the very end of May and mid-August. Is there a better time within that range?

For good information on transportation options WITHIN cities, you might consult the Lonely Planet and / or Rough Guides -- they usually provide very good coverage of that kind of thing. And google.maps is surprisingly informative....

We have been traveling independently for over 45 years with the basic premise, we would rather see a few places well, than many poorly.

And please remember you lose x of time on every travel day. There is packing, unpacking, checking in and out, getting to and from the transportation, waiting time, and actual travel time.

<<Someone above mentioned no AirBnB in... Paris? Not sure which city it was but... Is that some kind of city/country law/policy?>>

Read the links Pal provided above.

Staying in the "suburbs" may hold appeal for a variety of reasons, but if you are indeed a thrifty person, staying in the suburbs of Paris could eat into your budget and waste time you could be spending seeing and enjoying the everyday delights of that city. For Amsterdam, which IMO isn't anywhere near as magical downtown, staying in Haarlem might be a good idea. You can get into A'Dam in about 15 minutes and I believe there's a train about every 15 minutes.

I would go as early in the summer as you can manage.

Janis, yes I'd still love to fit Scotland in, and the countryside there and in the Netherlands is actually more appealing to me than bigger cities.

Fourfortravel, my idea of cultural experience is seeing and learning about the real areas and people, not the hugely advertised things. Also, we are simple shorts & sandals folks, not so much the opera crowd.

Kathie, thanks for the tip on the credit cards!

BigRuss, yes "on a budget" can mean anything, haha. I'm not sure how to answer that, as I don't really know what the trip is going to cost yet. I am very cheap, and always looking for the least expensive way to do things, but this trip is a first, and maybe once in a lifetime, so I won't be my normal penny-pinching self.. completely.

Massimop, we don't mind living out of suitcases, aside from having to drag them everywhere, so changing lodgings won't be a problem. And Utrecht and Munich are great ideas, thanks!

Annhig & Thursdaysd, thanks for the university lodging suggestions; definitely look into that. Finding out about the Paris problem with AirBnB has me worried now about affordable lodging there. I'll definitely be looking outside the city.

Cathinjoetown, no idea what hotel rates are in Paris, but here in the States, depending on location, I rarely pay more than $50-60/night. They're not the nice places, but... cheap, lol.

Pixiegal,

Yes, there is a strong policy against all short-term apartment rentals in Paris, not only AirBnB. so you need to be very careful and get a LOT of advice if you try to rent an apartment in Paris. There are now some legal apartment rentals registered with the city, but it is a work-in-progress, and in the meantime many illegal apartments are being offered on the market to unsuspecting customers. That can create a lot of problems for you if you unknowingly book one and the law clamps down and makes the apartment unavailable, and you end up with no place to stay.

People here can help you sort through some of the options for a legal rental or an affordable safe suburb.

Afraid $50/night in big European cities is likely to mean hostels. However, many of them now have twin rooms, so you wouldn't have to sleep in a dorm, and most come with kitchens.

I use booking.com for hotels, which often includes hostels, but you should also check eurocheapo.com and hostelworld.com

>>but here in the States, depending on location, I rarely pay more than $50-60/night.<<

Unless you always stay in youth hostels -- I am very curious where you find $50 lodging in places like San Francisco, or Manhattan, or Chicago, or San Diego. Maybe in non scenic towns out-of-season but not where anyone would actually want to vacation.

You will need to raise your budget unless you want to stay in hostels every single night. $50 a night = £35/€40

>>I'll definitely be looking outside the city. <<

Be careful staying out in the 'burbs' in places like Paris and especially in London. What you lose in time and money commuting in and out every day will make the savings a false economy.

Is your son AF or Army? Will he have leave to travel some with you or will you visit him at his base? Will you fly RT to someplace near him to see him at the beginning and end of the trip, or do a multi-destination flight, into one city and out of another?

Any place he is stationed will be near interesting places with great local restaurants, guest houses, etc. so you might want a few days to explore Germany for local culture. Definitely begin searching what Germany has to offer and as soon as you know his base, people can give advice. From near Ramstein (if he is AF), you can get trains and/or cheap flights to other places in Europe.

There are some places that are good hubs for travel, but "Europe" is too big to be a hub. Other guides, Fodor's and Eyewitness for example, are better in some respects, but you might get a lot of good basic info from some Rick Steves' books.

"Traveling to and fro is, IMO, part of the joy and wonder." Perhaps you have had better experiences, but not me. Only the first time or so in a crowded subway or bus is interesting. After that, no fun at all, certainly no joy or wonder!

I live on the East Coast of the US. Most of my travel in recent years has been NYC, DC, Hampton Roads, Baltimore and SE Florida, all places of major interest to tourists. Even cheaper hotels in these major cities has been over $100.00 for a long time. Beach areas are cheap off season, but the cities you are planning to visit are major world class cities, busy all year. Expect lodging to be proportionate to that. Also, there are three of you, so cost will be higher. Although there are many more than there used to be, rooms with two beds or a family room are a tad more limited. People here can help you find them.

In some cases, staying outside the city you wish to visit works. In others it does not. People here are giving you some very, very good advice about that! Just think about this. If you spend 45 minutes each way commuting back and forth into a city, in five days, you have wasted nearly eight hours plus cost of travel. That is nearly a day. Might as well have cut the trip short by a day and used the money spent on the hotel one night and the travel cost back and forth, to up the cost of a hotel in a good location.

Paris: One place I would consider staying outside of central Paris is the town of Versailles. It has a fabulous market!!! It has a pretty town center and restaurants. You can stroll the grounds of Versailles for free for those views and vistas. Train is easy into Paris proper, and because you are staying in an interesting place, no time lost.

If your budget is really tight because it just is, then you have to work with that. If it is because you are frugal, then you might want to rethink it a little bit.

I used to be that way. We stayed in horrible places when something different would have contributed a lot to our vacation. Two days in a place with a great view "may sometimes" beat three days in a hovel.

Because entrance fees seemed high, we bypassed museums, concerts and palaces I really wanted to see. Frankly, that was plain stupid! I never got back to some of those places. A person pays hundreds if not thousands for the trip, then tries to save money on what they go there to see? Another way I wasted money and time was shopping for better prices on things I wanted to buy. Spend valuable sightseeing time shopping to save a dollar or two? No!

Of course I want it to be good, but food is not terribly important to me. However, where I sit to eat is. I want music and beautiful squares, etc.

So, this is all relative to your personal enjoyment - and those traveling with you! You have lots of time to plan. You might want to get a big, big map and pin things to it. Have fun doing it.

I think some of advice about being outside the cities is being misinterpreted by others. And it was not meant as blanket advice for every city.

The travelers want "vistas and views". They don't have a lot of money. While it makes sense to stay in an expensive urban core for some days, it also makes sense to rather quickly get out of that expensive urban core to the vistas and views after some concentrated sightseeing is done. The travelers are not adverse to switching hotels often. It doesn't make sense to stay in central Paris for 7 days and do "day trips" to vistas and views.

Also, in a country with excellent transportation options (like the Netherlands) there really is a case to be made for picking a beautiful small town near the capital rather than the capital itself, especially if museum-going is not a priority.

Devil is in the details. A lot of the standard formulaic advice is not gong to be relevant to this trip.

Lots of good advice. My biggest piece of advice is to plan your trip by nites, not days. That way you'll be sure to have a place to stay every nite, and will easily be able to see that two nites means only one full day in place.

One way to save on both money and time is to spend fewer nites in large cties and more in the real heart of Europe--smaller cities and the country. This is particularly true as you say your priority is vistas and views. When I think of vistas and views, I think of Scotland so don't cut that out. And I also think of western Austria just south of Munich: we spent a nite outside of Innsbruck while driving to Venice, and would gladly go back just for the view of the Alps from our room. Innsbruck is a short drive from Munich.

Rather than basing in the outskirts of cities, I'd just cut the nites. Kja suggested seven nites in London and five in Paris. For me, for a first trip, that's three nites too many in London and two too many in Paris if you take the Eurostar London to Paris. So there are five extra nites that you can devote to Scotland.

Also, use open-jaw tickets: Fly into London, fly out of Munich.

Have a great trip!

If never been to Amsterdam I'd stay there and day trip to regional towns not vice versa - Amsterdam glows after dark - especially along the many canals.

Regional towns can be very quiet at night -if that is what you want may be better than staying in the mega tourist towns. But most want to see like in Amsterdam the main sights which would take leisurely about three days - day tripping in would waste time.

Haarlem is a 15-18 minute train ride outside Amsterdam. Doesn't seem too onerous. On the other hand, Paris and London are big enough that staying on the outskirts makes much less sense. I could sleep in Richmond for free when I visit London, but I pay to stay in the center instead. (Admittedly in LSE dorms or an inexpensive B&B, but not free.)

My daughter is following along with these posts, and since she is really the spearhead on this, she's now come up with this itinerary...

"So it's looking like fly into London (4days), go to Scotland(4days), Paris (3days), Netherlands (7days different places), Poland (3 days) Vienna (5days), and then fly out of Munich (3 days)?"

I'm thinking that is too much now and told her I didn't think we could squeeze Vienna in there. Plus, I'd like to have a little more time in Germany; Innsbruck sounds wonderful. My son is an officer in the Army, and he doesn't even know if he'll be able to get away, but we're hoping.

Sassafrass, thanks for the wake-up... The frugal budget is part necessity and part my cheap nature. I will definitely expand my perspective here. You do have me very worried about lodging... 30 nights at $100 a night is over $3k. Eek! Versailles sounds great. As for travel... I love driving, and stopping whenever and wherever I please to look at things. I guess the trains will be a different story, huh?

Thursdaysd, Haarlem sounds great, but PalenQ makes a great point about Amsterdam at night. I looked up the LSW. site for London, and the rates seem very high, $115+ Euro and can't find anything for 3 people.

Germany will be cheaper then Paris or London. $100 is more then €80. If you aren't traveling during an event that should be plenty in Germany. Tougher in London and Paris.

IMO, yes, definitely TOO much. Please start thinking in terms of NIGHTS, not DAYS, so you can see how much time you actually have on the ground to see and experience the places that are making it to your wish list.

And oh my, no, do NOT try to use a rental car to make this trip! If you change countries, you will pay a fortune in drop off fees (someone will have to be paid to drive the car back to it's destination). Trains in Europe, and most buses, too, are comfortable and convenient. Car trips in Europe can be great for visiting a small area; using cars for a major trip across multiple countries is an entirely different matter. If absolutely necessary, you might consider a car for a few days here or there -- but as rule, expect doing so to add substantially to your costs.

Please check rome2rio.com for some basic sense of your transportation options to get from place-to-place. You can't count on the information you learn there, as it is not sensitive to seasonal variation, but it will give you an idea. For example, 3 days for Poland would mean the better part of 1 day to get there, the better part of 1 day to get back, and just over 1 day for an entire country. Not my idea of a good use of time.

Traveler_Nick: >>Germany will be cheaper then Paris or London. $100 is more then €80. If you aren't traveling during an event that should be plenty in Germany. Tougher in London and Paris.<<

Even in Germany €80 is pretty low for a triple room.

PixieGal : >>I looked up the LSW. site for London, and the rates seem very high, $115+ Euro and can't find anything for 3 people.<<

Assuming you mean LSE - They don't use € in London - they use £ Yes they do have triple rooms. If you mean $115 (US $) - that is a little under £90 and that is very cheap for a triple. Their bookings for next summer aren't open yet so not sure what you found.

Kja, I wasn't planning on renting a car, but I'm starting to think we may have to for some day trips. I hope not, but I am not deep enough into this yet to know for sure. Is it true the train schedules only come out 4 months in advance?

Quick question.. Are we "dumb Americans" going to have an issue since we don't speak any other languages besides Spanish?

I'm thinking the itinerary will be more like London, Paris, Amsterdam/Netherlands, Scottland, and Germany.