European Over/Under
 

Overrated And Underrated Europe.

Since most threads give exactly same Pollyanna opinions (everything was wonderful!!, wonderful!, wonderful!!) that follow the party line, I thought that it would be good to have a contrarian thread for people who don’t leave their critical faculties at home when they travel. One good format is a thread that gives opinions on the most overrated and underrated sites in Europe. Here’s a good starter. Feel free to add.

Overrated.

Maidrid (Spain). The most boring capital this side of Dublin. Very little history. No natural beauty. Mediocre food and wine. A bunch of boring art museums is the only draw, it you are into that sort of thing. I’m not.

Bath (UK). A dull tourist trap of a little town.

Sistine Chapel (Rome, Italy). The reality just doesn’t match the hype Well, first, you can hardly see much because it a ceiling. Second, it simply doesn’t impress after seeing all the other artwork on the way in. Give me Raphael anytime over the big M.

Luca (Italy). It’s like suburban Florence with a wall. Big deal. Nothing to see at all.

Ireland. Most towns and cities in Ireland simply nothing of any interest. There is some nice scenery on the west coast, but you have spend much of time driving on the worst, nerve-racking roads in Europe to get there. Food blah. Not worth the trouble.

Tower of London (London, UK). Not that is was bad or anything, it just doesn’t have enough pop to merit all the attention it gets. The Beefeater guides are the only fun part.

St Paul’s (London, UK.) What is the big deal? Sure it’s tall. But it’s also barren and dull. After you’ve seen cathedrals in Florence, Toledo, Sevilla, etc, this place isn’t even worth a subway ride.

The Marais (Paris, France.) There is nothing there of even the most remote interest. The “Jewish area” is one block of mostly felafel shops. Place des Vosage should be renamed Place des Boring.

White Towns (Spain.) You waste a lot of time driving up curvy roads to get nowhere and to see nothing. BTW: Don’t consider Arcos or Ronda as white towns.

Underrated.

Pantheon (Paris, France). A magnificent building which deserves much more fame and attention than it usually get in guidebooks. It blows away its more famous cousin in Rome.

Rustem Pasa Mosque (Istanbul, Turkey). It may be small, but it is certainly beautiful.

Ronda (Spain). A very comfortable small town with nice views and many excellent small museums.

Field of Miracles (Pisa, Italy). The Leaning Tower would be a great piece of architecture, even if it weren’t leaning. The cathedral is also a sight (far better than St. Pauls). Pisa It gets a lot of bad press (like Rick Steves) as being a tourist trap. It’s not. The tacky souvenir stands are tastefully segregated to a small area away from the buildings. (You want tacky, try Assisi. Every street is lined with shops selling St. Francis beer mugs and the like. The irony is apparently lost on them. Fortunately, Assisi is generally a very nice town despite this)

Cluny (Paris, France) A real human size museum where you get a real feel for a specific time and place. In an old Roman building to boot. I generally prefer these smaller, more specific museums to the massive everything famous places like the Louvre. Added bonus: you don’t spend all your time being pushed and jostled by the mobs. (Another good small museum is the whaling museum in Gloucester, Mass)

Royal Andalusian School Horse Show (Jerez, Spain). The town isn’t much great, but the horse show is great. The essence of Spain! Also, next door there is sherry tasting at Sandeman and nearby a clock museum.

Paradors (Spain.) I’ve only stayed at three different ones, so maybe I made fortunate choices, but they provided extraordinary old world charm and service in beautiful surroundings at an unbelievably cheap price for the experience.

"After you’ve seen cathedrals in Florence, Toledo, Sevilla, etc"

I have and prefer St Pauls which isn't some overpainted tart of a cathedral. Then again I prefer Durham Cathedral to every other cathedral I've ever seen. The only possible exception to that is the Mezquita Catedral de Córdoba which is gobsmacking UNTIL you find the tart in the heart of it.

And given the Pantheon in Paris was built 1500 years after the far superior one in Rome I fail to see why you want to compare the two. I suppose you were unimpressed by Stonehenge because they hadn't put the roof on.

As for the Sistine Chapel - last time I looked it had quite a lot of wall relief extending down several layers so it isn't just a ceiling.

To each his own, but I will say I think I am rather glad that we are not traveling companions. I've never been to Madrid, but I like Dublin, and Ireland in general. I don't even have much issue with the food. I like Bath, too. I don't think I'd have any major issues with anything on your overrated list (or your underrated list, for that matter), although my father claims that I did not care for the Sistine Chapel much when I was three.

Generally, any time I go to Europe, I am delighted and grateful that it is possible for me to do this at all. I don't spend a great deal of my time being overly critical. Of course, some people care for some things more than others, and I do like to do a little research so that my time, money, and energy are expended on things that I will be likely to enjoy, but still, I'm not going to complain about a day that I spent traveling rather than stuffing women into wedding gowns.

Well, you certainly have opinions (no bad thing).

Bath is probably one of my favourite places in the UK, lvely architecture, not overly spoilt by modern development.

Lucca - Nothing to see - I agree if comparing to Florence or Pisa, but as a town with atmsosphere, I love it. Had I the money, I could quite easily live in either of the above.

Pisa - I agree completely, and cannot understand that people can't see past the "tacky" souveniers. I love Pisa cathederal, and would put it alongside Siena and Monreale as my favourites in Italy.

You guys are so funny. These threads are very entertaining (tart of a cathedral- LOL I'm going to steal that!)...even when I disagree and I do disagree with most of the OP, especially about the Pantheon in Rome. Pretty impressive. I don't know whether it was a past life thing or possibly the HBO series Rome but I literally almost cried when I saw it. But then I cry for the Superbowl commercials and €30 Bellinis, too.

Also, Imhornet, should you return to Italy try to visit the picturesque southern coastal town of Kinsale and you'll never complain about Irish food again. It's known for it's cuisine and many of Europe's most celebrated chef's summer here. You can't find a bad meal.

I meant Ireland, not Italy when speaking of Kinsale...sorry!

Is there an edit feature on this forum I am missing here? It's mortifying to have to witness one's own posessifying a plural and such.

And the hornet stings again.

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I do not want to see imhornet's eye and even less what may be behind that eye.

To the newer Fodorites:

imhornet is a troll who habitually writes complete nonsense. Ignore it.

quinssmom, yes, there is an edit feature, it is called "preview" below in the blue box. One cannot edit their post after posting it, that would be rather unusual (and I can see how someone could edit out something and claim they never said it, if someone disagreed). I know a few boards allow post-publication edits, and it can result in problems. If you want to edit, just do it before the final posting, that's all, as editing is usually before publication, after all.

As for the OP, I found reading these opinions interesting and certainly not boring, even if I don't agree with a few (I do agree with others, like the Marais). But I liked Madrid. I don't think it's the most boring capital, I would bet Frankfurt, Monaco, Bern, Brussels or Warsaw could be in that poll. I do like the Pantheon in Paris, but wouldn't say it's that outstanding for most people (most of whom have little knowledge or interest in historical French figures).

I don't agree that these opinions are nonsense, at all, I can appreciate some of the thoughts, even if I don't agree with them. I don't think people should declare something they don't agree with as nonsense nor tell others what to ignore or not.

Echnaton....right on!! When I saw his very appropo name I immediately came here fuly expecting to see the ultra-contrarian view of the world..and here it is...goodbye!
stu tower

I agree that the Cluny in Paris is under-rated and I'm very happy it is.

Same for the Rustem Pasa Mosque. While the Blue Mosque was completely over crowded, there was no one in the Rustem Pasa nor in the other two small mosques in that same area. It was delightful to view them.

While in the Czech Republic earlier this year I couldn't quite understand the hubbub over the ossuary in Kutna Hora while no one mentions the Church of the Assumption of Our Lady around the corner whose interior is bathed in warm yellow and whose beauty is found in its architectural simplicity.

Madrid has no history and is boring?!?!? Mediocre food and wine?!?!? Are you insane (obvious answer is "yes")?? Perhaps this unknown "Maidrid", as you call it, is quite different.

This is your opinion, why don´t you tell us what you like about places and what do you expect?
All of the places you mention have a some interesting part, but not for everyone.

Believe it or not, I find his broad generalizations not all that far off mark.

Over

Champs Elysee
Blarney Stone
Buckingham Changing of the Guard

Under

Istanbul

Hi Michel: Agree.

The Buckingham Changing of the Guard became a test of my patience. Too many people, not able to see enough and it was quite drawn out.

Champs Elysee: Absolutely nothing charming about it accept for the Arc at the end of the boulevard.

I am hoping to see some some more places that are underrated, that people really enjoyed. Here are two of ours. The Dutch Resistance Museum in Amsterdam and the Military Technology Museum in Koblenz. If you are interested in WW II or military history, both museums are worth the effort to go see. My husband is a veteran and a ham radio operator, so we spent most of our time on the communications floor of the military museum. We got there late, they actually stayed open an hour later, to let us see everything we wanted to see. Being born in the mid 1940's, my husband and I consider WW II as part of our childhood rather than history. We spent a lot of time in the Dutch Resistance Museum, it was very well put together and had a lot of information, some on communication, a big interest for my husband.

...suppose you were unimpressed by Stonehenge because they hadn't put the roof on...

And what possessed them to build it so far from the airport?

I was very interested to see that they have a changing of the guard in Buckingham.
There's no mention of it on their website http://www.buckinghamuk.info/

Underrated:
- Verona and it's amazing small church with the inlaid woodwork. It's a insider's tip and I can't remember the name of the church. It's across the river though. Can anyone help me?

"I was very interested to see that they have a changing of the guard in Buckingham.
There's no mention of it on their website http://www.buckinghamuk.info/"

Josser, you beat me to it.

"...suppose you were unimpressed by Stonehenge because they hadn't put the roof on...

And what possessed them to build it so far from the airport?"

:D

I an inclined to agree with the OP on the subject of the Sistine Chapel. It may very well be the more impressive artistic achievement (compared to the Raphael rooms), certainly I make no pretense to sophistication when it comes to art, but... the overwhelming number of people crammed into the room combined with the difficulty of viewing it made it a less enjoyable experience for me. Maybe if I could see it without the hordes and with those large hand-held mirrors they have in some places, I would come to a different conclusion.

Hooameye

Perhaps they have a guard outside Tescos

Mona Lisa?

Nothing of interest in the Marais?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mksfca/...7623310709181/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mksfca/...7623310709181/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mksfca/...7623310709181/

and I left out the Picasso Museum. Strange that someone should admire the building of the Cluny for the wrong reasons (<i>In an old Roman building to boot</i>; NOT) and not admire the architectural ensemble of the Place des Vosges built 100 years after the Cluny.

I like the idea of over and under. I agreed with Michel's assessments on the "Over." Here's more:

Under

Milan; I was pleasantly surprised by the non-touristy atmosphere and the very good smaller museums.

Watching the cars - and bicycles - whiz around the Arc de Triomphe. It's hilarious!

Palazzo Barberini, in Rome. Gorgeous palazzo and good art.

The castles scattered throughout the countryside of the Czech Republic.

Over

Lake Como. It just didn't click with me, even though yes, it's beautiful. Riding around in boats isn't that interesting - to me.

Per my children and husband, Mona Lisa. Not me; I like Leonardo's use of sfumato.

And what Michel said.

How predictable. Instead of getting the point of the thread, which I clearly stated was to give your over/under, a lot of insecure little dweebs got all upset and attacked me because I didn't find everything wonderful, ABSOLUTELY WODERUL WONDERFUL WONDERFUL.

I do find the pathetic lengths that people have used to attack me to be quite hilarious. E. g:

"Madrid has no history and is boring?!?!? Mediocre food and wine?!?!? Are you insane (obvious answer is "yes")?? Perhaps this unknown "Maidrid", as you call it, is quite different."

Oooooo. You got me on typing Error. That proves that I was badly mistaken! Wow, better not cross swords with an intellect (and level of pettiness) like yours! By the way, what is all this history you are talking about?

"And given the Pantheon in Paris was built 1500 years after the far superior one in Rome I fail to see why you want to compare the two."

Well, gee. They are two buildings with the same name and general shape and one was based on the other. Who would ever think to compare them? I mean no one ever compares movie remakes with the originals. Right?

" I suppose you were unimpressed by Stonehenge because they hadn't put the roof on."

Frankly, Stonehenge always struck me as so boring that I've never taken the trouble to go there, especially since it is fenced of these days. Anyway, Stonehenge doesn't even rate near the top of neolithic structures. It just gets the hype and attracts the hype followers. If I want to see Stonehenge, I just watch "Spinal Tap" again.

Anyway, a few more:

OVER

Changing of the guard. It is overrated, but then, I wasn't really expecting that much.

Mona Lisa. Forgot about this. It would have to be really great to fight through the crowds to see it. It wasn't. It is probably the greatest single example of pop culture hype in existence.

UNDER

Toledo. This is where the history that is missing from Madrid is located. Just a beautiful place.

Black Forest. What's let of it, anyway.

A lot of us look to Europe for side-by-sides, there being so few made in the U.S. That being said, Boss and Beretta and Merkel make over/unders which simply cannot be ignored. Now, why don't we discuss something more interesting, like box versus sidelock?

Whilst I do not agree on your view on Madrid (perhaps you should go back there and look around instead of just following the tourguide) I do agree with the term "overrated" on Marais, St. Pauls and Bath.

As for Ireland: it's a great little island. Driving there is half the fun, there are many strange castles and beautiful views, the people are friendly and they sure do know how to tell a story ;). The food can be bad, but if you search a little you'll find plenty of honest and quite tasteful food in brown pubs for example. You'll just have to enjoy it for what it is.

Traveling can so much more than just going somewhere to llooking at old buildings and art.

OVERRATED: Fodors threads which purport to impose some bored person's tastes (or lack thereof) in travel destinations on the unsuspecting.

Haven't read all the posts but I just want to say that seeing the Sistine Chapel in real life after years of art history texts was one of the highlights of my life. It was more beautiful (ceiling et al) than I could have imagined. Yes, it's a ceiling so it's high up (gee, who could have imagined that?), so what? I never travel without opera glasses because so much of the beautiful art is up high. I also felt that way about Michelangelo's Pieta -- unbelievably beautiful and touching (but I don't think anyone under-rates it).

Under-rated:
The Pantheon in Rome is a magnificent space. It doesn't need to be filled with anything.
The Luxembourg Gardens in Paris, especially in the fall. The Tuilleries are pretty but Luxembourg is more beautiful.
The Musee D'Orsay. I prefer this beautiful museum to the Louvre, just because the Louvre is overwhelming.
The harbour in Hamburg. It's fascinating. A must-see.
And everyone told us to go to Minatur World in Hamburg. I thought it was going to be corny but it's fabulous fun!

Over-rated (for me, anyway):
The Mona Lisa. I've never quite understood the draw.
The David in the Accademia. I know, I know -- everyone loves it. I don't. It's completely oversized for a statue you stand so close to. Now if it were far away...

I believe that David was originally meant to be on the roof of Florence Cathedral.
He has always seemed to me to be out of proportion with too big a head. Probably he would look much better viewed from quite far below,

Exactly, MissPrism. And that long, not very interesting stretch of torso would be foreshortened if he were up on some high perch.

Under-rated

Russia
From her Eastern shores you can see Alaska.

Paris
The city may be a bit boring, but EuroDisney is cool.

Neuschwanstein
Even more people should be part of going for the world record for the shortest tour with the longest wait.


Over-rated

Greenwich
Since when is being "zero" an accomplishment?

Salzburg
Not a single living person in Europe knows the "Sound of Music".

Athos
Too much effort to finally be legally required to leave your wife behind and have a peaceful vacation.

Overrated: Posts by the OP

Overrated

7th arr of Paris (nice for a morning, but...)
London Eye (actually it's worse than overrated)
Dutch pancakes (blechh!)
Guggenheim Museum Bilbao (world's toniest tourist trap)
Anyplace anybody wears kilts and plays bagpipes ('nuff said)
Most Italian wine
Positano

Underrated

Bologna
The Pyrenees
Domenich I Montaner, the Catalonian architect
Antwerp
Kenwood House, London
Friuli Venezia-Giulia
Liguria between Genova and France
The 14 arrondisement in Paris
Shopping in Amsterdam

Oh -- I forgot:

Underrated:

Greek food

The Mona Lisa. THIS is the most famous painting in the world?

The Champs Elysees. THIS is the most famous street in Paris?

Picadilly Circus. THIS is the most famous circus in London? It looks like the poor man's Times Square. ;)

The worst thing about the Mona Lisa, though, isn't the disappointment in what looks like a fairly ordinary smallish painting, but the hordes of tourists taking flash photos. I remember the scene in Forget Paris with Billy Crystal hopping up and down trying to see it from the back.

The first time I visited Rome I thought it was a big let down. But it was August and very hot, and I was on a tour that barely gave me enough time to tour the Colosseum. On the second trip, in late September with more time to enjoy the city, I liked it a lot.

MissPrism, goddestogo,

That's a very astute observation. You might be interested in this story about a documentary recently made where a replica of David was hoisted atop the Duomo to get a view of what might have been:

http://blogs.timeslive.co.za/minor/2...mbs-the-duomo/

(one more -- he really doesn't look much cuter up there)

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/wp-con...he-Duomo-3.jpg