European Bread vs US
 

I know, it's no contest. But even our specialized bakeries don't seem to taste as good, not to mention the consistency. Why is the European better? Flour? Yeast? Baking? Other?

What is European? There is no similarity among breads in Ireland, Greece or Slovenia. I find all foods to be very regional.

I have to agree with bobthenavigator. Something tells me this is one of those very naive posts which seems to say, "isn't the US awful -- everything in Europe is wonderful and everything at home is terrible." There is wonderful bread in the US too. And just as Bob says there is no similarity among various European breads, anybody who thinks there isn't also good bread in the US is just plain naive.

Are you talking about French bread? Tuscan bread? Greek flat bread? What in the world are you talking bout tomboy? I actually go to a local small French restaurant in Florida and I'll put their bread up against any I've had in Paris!! And a local Italian where their thick chewy Tuscan bread is as good as anything I've tasted in many trips to Tuscany.

Sometimes I think we are traveling and get a false sense of how great everything is. Like the same wine you drank at a bistro in Paris might be available at your local wine store, but I guarantee it will never taste like it did when you were in Paris drinking it.

hi,

I have to say, I think I may know what tomboy is saying. I live in a small town, I think we have only had one or two bakeries in my lifetime. Most of the bread sold here is from the bread factory.

I couldn't begin to compare the taste of a fresh french baguette or crouissant (sp?) to anything I could buy around my area. But that is comparing bread from a homemade french bakery in central paris.

The same bakery that has probably been open for several generations. probably the same as many bakeries in nyc or any of the larger cities, however, not everyone has access to them on a regular basis.

I thought I had died and gone to heaven when a french woman and her husband moved here and open a bakery. Even though it still did not have the same taste, it was softer, less course, but also less flavorful, it was 10 times better than anything I could buy locally prior to their opening. To my utter dismay, they only stayed open about 4 or 5 years and then closed.

I love the french hot dogs and baguettes.. I have yet to be able to recreate that flavor and it is one of the first things I buy on the street when I arrive.

Tomboy, if you're talking grocery store breads, you are correct--no contest! But there's been a bread revolution in the US in the last few years, and the artisan breads that you can now buy here more than compare to what you can get in Europe. We have an excellent European style bakery down the street from us, and I live in unassuming Midwest city full of chain restaurants! Baguettes? Delicious! Peasant breads? Even better! Scones? Lovely!

I think that it has to do with the way that flour is processed. I have an old Eastern European cook book that has recipies for breads and cakes using an amazing variety of "types" of flour (wheat flour). I have never heard of anything like that here on this side of the pond.
It must be a question of quality vs quantity, we seem to go for "more is better".
Of course there are good breads here too, but you really have to go out of your way to find them, especially if you don't live in a major city.

I think part of the issue is also about preservatives - <i>some</i> breads in Europe don't include any - just the flour, water and yeast.

The flavour and texture are superb but the breads don't last as long (which is never a problem to me, since they taste too good to last long anyway).

Always a source of discussion in the UK where a few conglomerates came to dominate the production and distribution of processed food earlier than on the continent, and it's taken a long time for consumer education to make much of a struggle back. Years ago there was a much-touted cutting from a local paper in which some people who had been to France on a self-catering holiday boasted how the bread they had bought in a supermarket at home had lasted for three weeks.....!

I can remember on a visit to Turkey being surprised to notice the quality of the breakfast rolls: I'm no gourmet, so there must have been a substantial difference. Materials must have something to do with it, but my guess is it may be the way the dough is needed and the time it is allowed to prove. I stand to be corrected, but I believe in the UK there is some particular process (using steam) which produces fairly uniform long-lasting but dull bread, quickly.

The one things that the europeans have the most difficulty creating is the american style fluffy white sliced bread. I.E. Wonderbread. It seems it is impossible for them to make it as soft and as nice as our white bread. In germany they have a &quot;American&quot; brand of bread that shows american flag's all over the package. The bread looks like ours but when eaten doesn't taste or feel the same. I do agree however that european bread has much more varities and tastes much better.

I agree with bobthenavigator and Patrick - What on earth is &quot;European&quot; bread? There are countless types of bread and each country has its own habits, production methods and preferences. There is no one standard type of bread, thank goodness, otherwise I'd never manage to satisfy my cravings for hot buttered toast, or rye bread, or fresh baked baguette...

We have breads in the Baltimore area that are every bit as good as anything I ever had in Europe. It helps to be near a fairly large city that can support smaller bakeries.

It's all about the Water !!!

Hi all,

When I was but a wee lad, the bread in the US was every bit as good as in Europe. The independent bakers were driven out of business by the cheap bread, made in large factories, that was delivered to your door.

Later, the cheap bread was delivered to supermarkets.

Artisinal breads are, again, available in the US, but I have to drive at least 35 miles, one way, to get some, so I bake my own.

The major requirement fo making a proper bread is that you have to use yeast, not air, to make the bread rise. It takes about 4 hr to develop the flavor.

In most of Europe, bread is highly subsidized through payments to farmers, millers and bakers. Thus, it is possible to make good bread at low prices and make a living.

I lived in Georgia for a while about 15 years ago, and could not find any bread other than the &quot;wonderbread&quot; sort. But then, the coffee was awful too, and both things have changed now. On a recent trip to the US, there were good breads, and good coffee.
I think for bread, it's all to do with the preservatives that are put in; any bread that keeps good for more than two days tastes terrible, in my opinion anyway.
But in defense of the US; nobody cooks a better steak! I have never found steaks in Europe that are anywhere near as good as the ones I get in NY.

In fact, Ira, here in Belgium the bread prices are regulated by the government. They have just raised prices by about 10 cents (if I remember correctly, maximum price for a large loaf of white is 1 euro 80 cents). There are also minimum prices, below which you cannot sell bread. This protects the small baker (in my village of 35000 people there are at least 15 bakeries, probably more).

I'm in agreement w/Tupils, we ruin many foods in order to extend their shelf-life. The same can be said for beer in the US. That's why in many European places you will shop everyday for dinner that night. You can't beat things that are freshly made. I am fortunate to have a baker from Eastern Europe only a few blocks away who supplies bread for nearly every restaurant in town for that very reason.

Hi tulips,

Is that 1.8E for a 1 kg loaf? If so, that would be about 1/2 the price I would pay for a proper bread here in Georgia, USA.

I think both Bob and Patrick need to cut tomboy a little slack. He just asked a question, you're the ones who got on the soap box without cause.

As to the bread question, there are three factors that influence the outcome of the loaf.

1. The quality of the flour.
2. The oven used to bake it in.
3. Time.

American flour tends to come from softer wheat that European flour.
French bread requires special ovens that inject steam into the baking process at the correct time. Successful American loaves are made with specially imported ovens (read expensive) many bakeries won't spend the money.

Most important is time. It takes a minimum of 6 1/2 hours to make a decent loaf of bread. Americans are notorious for wanting everything NOW; and American businesses are even more notorious for refusing to view things in the long term (why take 6 1/2 hours when you can pop out of loaf of wonderbread in 32 minutes?).

If you want to try your hand at a decent load at home, get some Hungarian flour (it's a type of milling that does make for a better loaf of bread). Let the dough rise A MINIMUM of 6 hours, punch it down as often as necessary. The six hours rise time is critical for the yeast and flour to react and form the flavoring agents that make bread taste good.

i tend to think that it has to do with the fact that most of the breads we are trying to make over here are recreations of European breads, and of course we can't do them as well as they do, and also we tend to add our own aspects to them. but when we do american breads--bagels, sourdough bread, sliced white and wheat breads, muffins, etc.--we do fine. those kind of breads are American breads, and we aren't always trying to recreate something when we make them.

You may not believe this, but a local Albertson's bakery makes a whole grain bread that comes as close as my memory requires. J.

Interesting point about the flour having a lot to do with the finished product. You can't bake a decent Southern biscuit unless you're using Martha White flour, which is a soft winter wheat. And a good loaf of white, to me, always starts with King Arthur Flour from Vermont.

I think we can get American breads, even from good grocery store bakeries (not all are good) that are close to European breads. What we can't seem to duplicate is those wonderful German hard rolls. I've tried our local European bakery and they said can't get people to buy them here (no shelf life, too hard, etc.). They do make one hard roll, but you have to buy it fresh or it's good only for stuffing that Thanksgiving turkey. What we forget is that Europeans go to the bakery every morning for their fresh bread and don't keep it around more than a day. My brother-in-law recently moved from Germany to the US and says the thing he misses most is his morning trip to the bakery two blocks away. We just don't live that way.

Ira, that's for a whole loaf, don't know the weight. You buy either a whole or a half here. What baker's seem to make most money on here is pastries, tarts and chocolates. By the way, they are all open on Sunday and holidays too, even on Christmas day (when all of Belgium seems to pick up their brioche to go with the fois gras).
Say hi to Georgia for me!

Thanks to those who cut me some slack.

By &quot;European&quot;, I referred to the general category of bread-type products I have experienced in England, France, Germany, Austria, Czech &amp; Slovak Republics, &amp; Benelux. I haven't been elsewhere in Europe.

Yes, I live in a small (40,000) town 45 miles from a larger town (110,000) in the midwest. In 2002 a Panera bread franchise came to town; that's as close to an artisan baker as one can come on our side of the state. Life's like that west of the Hudson. My query didn't anticipate driving to NYC for a good loaf.

What is Hungarian flour, and where to buy? When we bake, we use King Arthur, maybe add gluten, but it's still not even close. I suspect it's both the flour and the yeast, for we've experimented with variables such as heat, time (both rising &amp; baking).

tomboy, since you are baking your own, here's a couple of things I find help:

Slow rise in the fridge overnight (convienient, too!)

Steam in oven, esp. at beginning of bake; either put a pan of hot water in oven while preheating, or throw a few tablespoons of water on bottom of oven every 3 minutes.

A well preheated pizza stone is good, too.

I have read that boulangeries in France are subsidized by the government due to political pressures associated with the significance of bread in French history (&quot;let them eat cake&quot;, etc.). If this is true, it implies that, in France at least, you get more than what you pay for (since &quot;the state&quot; is paying for part). Good bread does exist in the US, but it costs more than the run-of-the-mill loaves that are so common in the grocery stores.

Another tip is to add a few ice cubes to the shallow pan of boiling water you place in the bottom of the oven. The ice will melt slowly and continue to steam the bread for a longer period of time, and you don't have to keep opening the oven to add the water.

Yet, nothing even comes close to Dansk wienerbrod (Danish pastry)!

From &quot;On Food and Cooking&quot; by Harold McGee.

&quot;Hard wheats are preferred for bread making and constitute about 75 per cent of the American crop. [In contrast]Durham...is too hard for bread dough, which must have some give to it.... Soft wheats...develop a weak gluten, and are made into cake flour. &quot;

&quot;All purpose or household flour is a blend of hard and soft flours meant for use in a variety of foods. Because it is a hybrid, it seldom gives the same results as commercially baked breads or cakes which are made with specialized flours. &quot;[which might explain Tomboy's problem with 'King Arthur' flour which I assume is an all-purpose flour.] &quot;Recent technical advances in particle separation have made it possible to extract a hard-flour fraction from soft-wheat grains and vice versa, thusfreeing the production of flour to some extent from dependence on the qualities of the particular crop.&quot;

The chapter continues for some 20 pages, going into enough detail to convince me that bread analysis is anything but simple.

Message to rfb: suggesting we &quot;cut tomboy some slack&quot; is kind of an odd statement in my opinion. I don't see any attempt from bobthenavigator or myself to get on any soapbox as you suggest. Is this not a forum for discussion? Are you saying the only reason anybody should post is to wholeheartedly agree with everything? Neither of us were harsh. We both simply asked a question, just like tomboy did. I'll never understand why people come to a discussion board and get upset if anyone dares to give an opposing view to a statement. Tomboy asked about European bread. We both (and others as well) asked which type of European bread he's talking about. Isn't this part of a logical and simple but civilized discussion?

I hope Harold McGee meant Durum wheat and not Durham wheat. Durham (NC at least) was known for tobacco. I hope that doesn't get milled into flour. Then again, it is one way to get a tobacco fix in a non-smoking area.

A convection oven is better at making a crusty bread than a regular oven. Something about all the air swirling around.

Ncgrrl

My bad! Mr. McGee did indeed write, 'Durum' not 'Durham.' This is the wheat used in Semolina, ,and only accounts for 5 per cent of the crop, according to him.

I've been checking around and it seems Julia Child and others maintain that regular French household flour is made from SOFT wheat. They claim that a reasonable approximation of French flour is 3 parts American unbleached all-purpose flour to 1 part unbleached cake flour. So it seems the trick might be to lower the gluten content, not increase it.

I'll never take the 'staff of life' so much for granted again.

dln
&gt;...You can't bake a decent Southern biscuit unless you're using Martha White flour,...&lt;

Well, down heah in Georgia we go with Lily White for biscuits.

We agree on the King Arthur.

Hi Jackie,

Bagels are American? See http://www.bethlehembagels.com/history.html


Hi rfb,

The King Arthur Flour people make excellent bread flour, All Purpose flour and Whole Wheat flour, as well as a range of specialty flours.

No need to go to Hungary.

Got me on that one Ira. I'm eight years removed from Georgia now, and it was &quot;Lily White&quot; I was thinking of, not Martha! I stock up on it when we head down south to visit.

In Spain, my hostess bought fresh bread EVERY morning. There were no preservatives or additives. Just the basic ingredients.

Also, I have heard people who insist that New York pizza is the best say that it's in the water. Even &quot;New York style&quot; pizzerias can't replicate the authentic taste, because they don't have the same minerals in the water.

My vote is water and lack of preservatives.

Great topic for (American) Thanksgiving week!!

A further question for all my US friends - wouldn't corn bread be the only truly all-American bread??? (&amp; other breads originated elsewhere and traveled to this continent with the pioneers and settlers??)

Corn bread certainly is American, especially when you start to talk about different regional ingredients that go into it! Now, THAT's a discussion!

Lionel Poilane, who was killed last year in a helpcopter crash, was known all over the world for his bread and bakery in Paris. A wood-fired oven was part of the process to produce this world reknowned loaf of bread. His daughter has taken over the business, on rue Cherche Midi.

and i thought this thread was going to be just another slice of euro vs. the dollar...