Europe, Expensive?
 

My Mother has gone off with some girls her age (85-95) to NYC to see a couple of shows and shop a bit.

They are staying in a hotel that she describes as, &quot;<i>You</i> would love this place&quot;.

Built 1904, art deco touches, etc.

Very much like the Hotel Bonaparte, where we stay in Paris, only bigger.

Conveniently located to restos, transportation and the local sights.

The differences:
The Paris hotel serves bkfst in your room.

The Paris hotel has hot hot water

The Paris hotel has friendly, courteous and helpful staff.

The Paris hotel is $70/nite less.

With RT airfare for 2 from ATL, airport transfers, etc, 3 wks in Paris is cheaper than 3 wks in NYC.

((I))

((I))

The last time I went to Disney World, I dropped $800 in 2 days. The last time I went to Europe I spent $800 for 17 nights of hotels.

If your 85 year old mother is a 'girl' I must be a fetus! Hahaha But I like your point. Unfortunately, most people don't think this way. We are planning 'another!' trip to Europe for this summer and I haven't told anyone except those who are going because I know it will cause comment relating to &quot;she must have family money to take all those trips to Europe.&quot; Hahaha, nothing could be further from the truth. We are ordinary people with ordinary jobs who spend our money on trips, not new cars or big TV's, or Tivo, or golf, etc. Thanks, Ira!

You are absolutely correct--Europe can be an economical vacation-when compared to many locations in the US, especially New York. NYC has become just too expensive. We used to go there for long weekends, not anymore. Now we go to Brussels, Frankfurt, etc. and have a much better time.

Well I am planning a trip to Spain and Portugal for next summer and I am finding hotel rooms pricing in under $100. I am talking dollars not euros.

Interesting observation and likely true.
The lesson to me is to avoid NYC.

Hi absolutkz,

Did you stay in Paris and Rome - if so, could you let me know where please?

I am thinking of visiting my son in March - he is overseas for a year - but I will have to do it on a budget if I go.

If that's all you spent for 17 nights - you've done well!
Thanks
Stormer

I have tried to tell my friends for years that Europe is not as expensive as most people think. They think we must have lots of money because I go to Europe three times per year. But the facts are simple...I either use FF miles or check every website for cheap airfare. I do not stay in luxury hotels. I do not eat at expensive restaurants, except when my sons are with me. Then I waste money on my meals because I am picky. I would rather have junk food any day. I've said all along that Hawaii is the most expensive place I visit. And I prefer Europe since there is so much to see there.

I looked into traveling over the US last summer vs going to Paris and Dublin for the same 4 weeks. Paris and Dublin were cheaper than doing a US tour. I went to Paris and Dublin.

John b.

You did not mention the costs of meals in Paris vs New York but I certainly can believe that it is often easier to find good value hotels in Paris than in NYC.

But it is also possible to find good deals in NYC during certain weeks of the year. My cousin was paying $140 a night last week at an excellent midtown hotel that he booked via Hotwire.

Where is your mother staying?

I hear ya.

This is a subject that comes up constantly amongst my family, friends and co-workers who think I'm loaded because we go to Europe each year.

(These are the same people who think nothing of dropping giant wads of cash to go to Disney World, or rent a gargantuan luxury beach house at the shore...there's nothing wrong with their choices, but the contradictions are obvious.)

We are budget travelers who stay in small bed &amp; breakfast type places, eat in simple family style restaurant or grab take away food.

We just spent 2 weeks in Colorado. We used FF miles for our tickets, stayed with friends a few nights,rented a car, and spent the rest of the time in a budget hotel (actually the cheapest one in town, and it was $125 per night, plus tourism and sales tax).

Even with the FF airline tix, the trip was MORE expensive than spending the EXACT same amount of time in Europe, where we usually rent an apartment, eat rather well, and use public transportation.

Folks can even do NYC cheaply, if they're willing to wander away from the tourist Meccas of Times Square, Fifth Avenue, Rockefeller Center etc and discover some of the local, less fancy places that mortals like me had to rely on for years. It can be done.

Ira, I love your math :) And absolutely agree with you.

Hi ek,

&gt;...You did not mention the costs of meals in Paris vs New York ....&lt;

It depends, of course, on what your level of dining is, but from what I have read and observed Paris is no more expensive than NYC - and often less.

The markup on wine is a major difference - Paris is cheaper.

I reviewed my trip report from May, 2008.
..................................
Hi FA,

&gt;Ira, I love your math....&lt;

&quot;And you ought to see the rest of me&quot;, he said with a leer, as he flicked the ash from his cigar. :S-

((I))

We ate nicely for 45E w/wine for 2.

We ate very nicely for about 90E w/wine for 2.

We dined like royalty for 200E (Lunch at Taillevent)

Ira just curious..when was the last time you spent any time in NYC?

Where is your Mom staying?

Nanbug - I have to disagree with you on your idea that one can do NYC cheaply by getting away from Times Square. I've been going to NYC for 40 years for vacations and in the last 2 or 3 years the costs of lodging in the city and the cost of activities has sky-rocketed. I suppose if you stay in New Jersey and eat at McDonalds, you could do ok. With Broadway shows over $100 per ticket and every hotel on the island of Manhattan asking well over $200 per night, I don't see how a vaca there could be cheap. If anyone knows of a hotel that is less than that and is above a one star, let us know! (Real prices, not something your cousin's dentist heard about!!) This summer my sister-in-law paid almost $200 for a room in Queens.

I think it boils down to your style of travel.
If money's no object then the discussion is irrelevant. If you're a budget traveler then you can go to NYC or Paris for exactly the same amount of money give or take a dollar or euro. You just have to budget accordingly (and hope the exchange rate is favorable! ;) )

For NYC it might mean spending more on hotels or using Priceline or traveling in January or when you find an hotel deal and eating cheaply.
In Paris you might save by staying in an apartment, keeping a close eye on airfares and going off season.

I know ira was trying to compare like with like regarding the hotels, etc but for me the two vacations would differ. I'd buy pastries and wine everyday in Paris and probably not touch either in NYC. I'd go to the theatre and shop in NYC but probably not in Paris.

We have long argued we could vacation more cost effectively in Europe than in NYC. However, I'm not sure this comparison works for London, where I have had trouble finding reasonable priced lodging close in. For Paris and Rome I'd agree, though the full analysis would depend on the cost of airfare. (Though sometimes it has been cheaper or as cheap to fly to Europe than NYC.)

Of course, with the NYC subway system, there's no overwhelming reason to stay in Manhattan.

We stayed at the La Quinta in Queens (Long Island City) and were only a 15-minute subway ride from Times Square. Paid $88 a night (plus tax) with breakfast included--and the room was huge with sofa, tables, easy chairs, etc.

And the neighborhood was great for excellent ethnic and American-style dining choices within easy walking distance (1-5 blocks)--at very reasonable prices.

last year when I was planning my &quot;divorce get a way&quot; with a girlfriend we were trying to decide between NYC and Rome. I originally was going to go to NYC because I assumed Rome was just way too expensive. I start planning my trip to NYC and about had a heart attack due to the prices. We were planning a 5 night trip to NYC. Just for kicks and giggles I started researching the costs of going to Rome. Not only was the airfare cheaper but so was the apartment. I ended up going to Rome for 8 days and had a WONDERFUL time not to mention saving a lot of money...well not really saving, the money went for shopping in instead lol.

RBNWDLR: Did you read my post above? My cousin paid $140 a night at a very good midtown hotel booked through Hotwire. This is not a third-hand report! I was in the hotel two weeks ago.. Again, hoel prices vary tremendously from week to week and season to season..

It is NOT necessary to pay $100 a ticket for a Broadway show!

And I think there are better eating options at the low end here in NYC than in Paris. Wine does increase the bill substantially, however, at most places, although there are a few good BYOBs and a few places with very low markups..

I disagree with people saying NYC is expensive. If you are flexible in terms on when to visit and are willing to shop around a bit, there are deals to be had.

My brother stayed at the Westin Times Sq over July 4th weekend this year, for $150/n through Priceline.

Now during winter months, a quick look at Travelzoo there are a handful of hotels all under $200/n.

A decent 2-3* Paris hotel costs &euro;120-150, so hotel costs aren't that much different from the NYC hotel prices I listed above.

There are also plenty of inexpensive restaurants in NYC, esp in East Village. One can eat well for under $20.

I'm not saying that NYC is cheap, but it can be affordable.

The only thing I find IS truly expensive, are the prices of *some* Broadway show tickets. I haven't been to one for years, but I read that Wicked! tickets go for $125?!?! (and there aren't any discounts).

I was just saying in my London trip report that I felt guilty for paying &pound;65 for a ticket to the Royal Opera. But by comparison, I guess I got a good deal.

I totally agree with Ira (and by the way Ira, I need to thank you in my trip report for recommending Hotel Bonaparte. It was perfect for our (just the two of us) 6-night stay in October. It allowed us to dine very nicely while we were in Paris and not to worry too much about our losses in the stock market while we were away.)

I grew up in New York (Queens), but do not visit very often. However, when I do, my family and I stay in hotels in Nassau County and must pay $200 a night for an ordinary room. At that rate, the four of us must share a room. I live in the MD suburbs of Washington, D.C., and when I have friends and relatives visiting us, they stay in Marriotts and Hiltons for $89 or $99 a night.

But getting back to the subject of Europe vs. domestic travel, I also feel like my friends look at us as though we are made of money because we go to Europe on vacation (but they go on cruise after cruise, which I personally have no interest in doing and is probably as much if not more than a European vacation). Yes, airfare to Europe can be more expensive, but hotels, especially if you go beyond the large cities, are so reasonably priced. I found food in Paris to be relatively cheap, as long as I didn't order Coke. We ate dinner at La Regalade, L'Epi Dupin, Le Vieux L'Ami, and none of them broke the bank. And when breakfast is included in your room rate, that's another $25-30 you don't have to spend (for two).

Forget about Disney World -- as a family, we're through with that place, although my kids want to return now that they are a little older (14 and 11). I can't believe the amount of money one can spend there. But would you believe that my kids actually feel deprived because they haven't been to Disney World/Land since 2001 and have never been on a cruise? They've only been to Europe twice in the last 4 years (they did love both trips, though).

Just returned from a 16 day trip to Germany. Been to Europe over a dozen times in the last 10 years and lived there for 2 years. I would say this is the most expensive I have seen but it is still cheaper then 7 days in Disney at Xmas. 16 days of hotels 1300 euro's, car 703 dollars meals with wine and beer approx. 1500 dollars - 150 per day spent on just shopping. Cost 5000.00 US.
Air tickets were advantage miles. I will attempt a trip report in the near future.

Rbnwdlr~

Ditto what Ekscrunchy and yk said above. There are reasonably priced places to be found, you just need to ferret them out.

I agree with you about the Broadway show prices, though. It's insane. But, sometimes you can find relative bargains in January and February, when the tourists stay home.

I'd recommend exploring the off-Broadway and small theater scene, tickets are much more reasonable and the experience is usually wonderful.

Stormbird -


I did not go to Rome. In Paris I stayed at the Hotel Sainte Maire. It's around the corner from the Bonne Nouvelle metro stop. At the time I paid 54 euro, now it's going for 62 or 66 euro. It was bare bones, but it was clean and super conveinent. We were only in the room to sleep. My friends laughed at me and said I could never stay in that area for that price. I didn't look at the recent reviews on Trip Advisor.

<i>I think it boils down to your style of travel.
If money's no object then the discussion is irrelevant. If you're a budget traveler then you can go to NYC or Paris for exactly the same amount of money give or take a dollar or euro.</i>

I think this sums it up pretty well.

Don't forget that it also boils down to where you are going. Yes, lodging in NYC is expensive, and if you must stay inside Disney World, then you will pay a premium. Beyond that, though, prices for US lodgings simply aren't that high. And good food options are plentiful in almost all major US cities. At the high end, I think prices in the US are generally lower than in Europe, though NYC and Vegas can be outliers.

There simply are more choices than Europe vs Disney/NYC. And &quot;Europe&quot; is pretty poorly defined. Travel in Scandinavia IS expensive - often absurdly so. Even a middling meal will run $100. And wine mark-ups are far beyond what you see in the US.

I also find Switzerland to be on the pricy side. Dining out in London is definitely more expensive than even NYC, across the spectrum. And, aside from Priceline, lodging in London is pricy and the quality is not up to the standards seen in most of the US. Germany is relatively cheaper, by comparison, as are some parts of Spain at certain times of the year. And I can't think of any place in Europe where shopping, even for souvenirs, will be cheaper than in the US.

And, in many places in Europe, the high season rates become obscene. Someone mentioned how expensive Disney is at Christmas. I'm sure it is, but that doesn't make Europe less expensive. This past August, I was looking at going to the South of France or the Italian Coast for vacation (from CPH). Between $500+ intra-European flights, and absurd hotel rooms, I think you are at or above Disney at Christmas territory. The wife and I went to Japan, instead, because it was cheaper!

Rural areas are certainly cheaper, but that is the case in the US, as well. You could easily get a comfortable room for very little in some place like Oregon wine country, and meals will be very, very cheap.

Of course, none of that makes Europe expensive, but I find the comparisons to NYC to be a bit misleading and not exactly apples to apples. I think both can be done for a reasonable price, as can Disney World. Or, you can blow the lid off and spend whatever you want.

Neither Europe nor the US, though, offers what I would call great value. If you want to see a lot of interesting stuff, eat well, and stay in great hotels for very little money, then I would head to SE Asia or Argentina or even Egypt. Compared to places like that, Europe is, indeed, very expensive.

NYC?
We spent $1000 on a weekend in Door Co.,Wisconsin(tourist area on Lake Michigan with cute Inns, shops, and restaurants).

Then we started going to Europe, and haven't looked back.

Do your homework, and Europe can be had in many price ranges.

Ira, your elderly mother went to NYC and enthused about her hotel. You don't give much more information, but based on what you've revealed, I conclude she was but trying to say she had a good time.

Look, I'm not looking for pity but only to give some perspective: My own mother is in the same age group and will never travel again. A two-hour roundtrip drive is now a major excursion.

So, my good man, take heart that your mother and her friends enjoyed a weekend in the sunset of their lives. Assuming they haven't doomed themselves to a life living on cat food in consequence, I'd call the experience reasonably-priced, regardless of your or my or anyone else's experiences in whatsoever city, country, or continent.

As for those whose friends make inquiries like &quot;isn't Europe [NYC/Timbuctoo] expensive?&quot; you have my sympathies, since such a question gives few clues as to what really is on the questioner's mind, i.e. what do they really want. The question as phrased is possibly a device used by the speaker to assert their own opinion, not ask for yours.

So I'd reply, yes, travel is expensive, since of course I don't need to rent rooms abroad to house myself when I already have accomodation at home.

If that answer satisfies them, I would conclude that what they really wanted to do was to change the subject. Further, I'd be relieved that I didn't waste my time giving an answer they didn't really want to hear.

If the answer prompts a diatribe about how much more more reasonably priced, or how otherwise better their vacation was than mine, I would hear them out, but give no response other than &quot;that's nice, I'm glad it works out for you.&quot; Just because I'm invited to a competitive game, doesn't mean I have to play. Especially a game I can't win.

Ira makes a good point that Paris can be more expensive than NYC.

Those who talk about prices in &quot;Europe&quot;, as if it were all one country, are less helpful.

I have long found that a break in the UK, even though I live here, is more expensive than a break in most other European countries.

There is a bed and breakfast on W. 23 Street in Manhattan and there's a Holiday Inn on Union Street, Park Slope/Brooklyn -- right near the train and a SHORT ride to Manhattan. For theater tkts, try the TKTS booth and www.broadwaybox.com for discount codes. I would guess that tourism is slow in Jan., Feb., March and you could get reasonable prices. There are restaurants at all price levels.

I think that these comparisons are a bit misleading if not downright silly.

Ira's elderly mother spent more money for hotels and airfare for a vacation in New York than she would for the equivalent length of stay in Paris.

Does that fact establish that New York City is more expensive than Paris for the average visitor?



So far we have established that wine in a restaurant costs more in New York than in Paris.

Ira: When did you last spend time in New York City?
If I am remembering correctly, you were born and raised here in Brooklyn...

<i>So far we have established that wine in a restaurant costs more in New York than in Paris.</i>

But we haven't established that good wine is more expensive in New York than in Paris. Personally, I don't think paying &euro;10 or even &euro;20 gets you much better than supermarket-grade wine, regardless of whether it is in NYC or Paris. It may be cheap but, even in Paris, I find you get what you pay for when it comes to wine.

Interesting! So perhaps we should cross out my comment about wine being a better buy in Paris than in NYC.

So we have now established: Nothing.

I never understand these comparisons. Maybe it's becasue we travel with 4 people rather than 2 or because we can only travel during the summer because of school schedules. We went to NYC in the summer of 2007, we are going to Paris this May. Since we haven't been to Paris yet, I can only compare on airfare and hotel but here it is:

NYC
airfare $166 x 4 = $664
hotel (Hampton near Times Square, very large room, helpful staff, free breakfast for 6 nights) $1789
total $2453

Paris
airfare $930 x 4 = $3720
hotel (Hotel Familia quad room, free breakfast) $1404 (187 Euros/night using today's exchange rate)
total $5124

So the difference is $2671.

What am I not understanding?

Well, what I take from this is that all the people in my circle who think a trip to Europe is only for the wealthy are not aware that it can be done by the middle class, if done carefully. Everyone takes their kids to Disney, but a trip to Europe gets a raised eyebrow and a &quot;Must be nice.&quot; Ira tried to give just ONE example of cost vs cost. I, for one, am buying it! Thanks, Ira.

Pat
Fair question. I cant afford to travel in summer. Here is an example
Paris Feb 14-22 989.00 pp
Paris Jun 1-6 1420.00 pp
Usually the difference is double but it looks like there are some pretty good prices out there.

rbnwdlr-I get that &quot;must be nice&quot; all the time! Travel is SO important for kids. I have to plan and budget but there are ways...and times to travel that make it easier!

I have to agree with Ira that European travel can be a much better value than U.S. travel. It does have to do with your travel style but also with substance. We are always surprised at the quality of the budget accomodations and cheap food that we can find in Europe (especially in the countryside).

We have been traveling to Europe for years and even last spring when the euro was at 1.60 to the dollar, we got good value staying in wonderful little B&amp;Bs for $80 or less -- whereas B&amp;B's that I have looked at in this country want well over a $100/night.

Budget travelers in particular will get much more value for their money in Europe.

Reen wrote:
<i>Budget travelers in particular will get much more value for their money in Europe.</i>

You cannot generalize all of Europe and all of the US like this.

I know there are B&amp;Bs in Europe that are less than $80, but I also know there are hotels in the US I can book for less than $80!

I think this entire thread discussion is pointless. Like others have already said, deals can be found if one is flexible and is willing to search for it, whether it's London or Paris or NYC.

The main difference though, IMO, is airfare to Europe is still more than airfare within the US.

<i>Budget travelers in particular will get much more value for their money in Europe.</i>

Bah... Perhaps B&amp;B fans get more value, but not budget travelers. I almost never pay even $80 for hotels in the US. Judicious use of priceline will see you staying in very nice 3 and 4 star hotels for $40 to $75 per night in all but the most expensive cities in the US. Even in a place like Boston, I have stayed at the 5-star, harbor-front Intercontinental for only $100 per night. I've stayed in boutique hotels

Saving money on hotels is very, very, very easy, as long as you are moderately flexible. The problem with Europe, however, is that you are likely looking at a bare minimum of $250 extra per person, per ticket to fly from the US, as compared to flying to a US city.

Tsk tsk, I think this discussion is based on priorities; what is more important, better wine, more stars on the hotel, more rides at Disney, higher quality meals, more atmosphere? It would seem a travel budget to Europe, once beyond the flight and this too is adjustable, is where you put your priorities. Living in Rome for 28 years and now living part time in Florida, I say give me a meal at a Ma and Pa restaurant in Rome any time with acceptable wine (right you are, travelgourmet, no great wines at this price, but definitely drinkable) beats Florida restaurant
fare in quality and price. In Rome, a rented apartment for a week, a glass of wine, and thou, that's a good deal. Staying home is cheaper, but not as fun. Enjoy.