Etiquette question re. bill splitting
 

We are travelling to Europe and spending one week with one set of friends and the second with another couple. We are middle of the road, leaning towards budget-type people. We like decent restaurants, decent wines but nothing that will break the bank. I have two dilemnas..couple #1 doesn't drink...couple #2 has extremely expensive taste in wine. How do we "split" the checks? Couple # 1 seems the easiest - perhaps we could split the food portion and we pay for the wine? But couple #2?? we don't want to look like cheapskates but having 6-7 dinners with very expensive wines is going to seriously dent our travel budget. But we can hardly say "why don't you two have the $50 bottle of wine and we'll have the $2 glass house wine?? Any suggestions?

Honesty and full disclosure up front is always the best policy, and will make for a better time overall, with less hard feelings and tension. If you're friends enough with these people to travel together, why don't you just sit down with them and set up a restaurant "game plan." I'm sure they don't want to split their $50 bottle of wine with people who won't appreciate it anyway : ) When the bill comes, mentally take their $50 and your $4 off the top, split the rest, and each pay your share. Have a great trip!

I believe you may be able to get separate checks.

We have always traveled Europe alone so it might be different then the States but here, (States) when dining with another couple we always ask for seperate checks.

to x - believe me we would really appreciate the good wine (we love good wine!) but can't afford the restaurant prices in Europe for 6-7 nights straight ! As for splitting the bill, it's kind of tough when you've shared a bottle of wine.

Sorry, I meant it's hard to ask for separate checks when you've shared a bottle of wine.

Separate checks are a pain for the server who's busy enough and most restaurants I've eaten at won't do it.<BR><BR>Agree completely on full disclosure upfront and suggestion that just take the booze off the bill, split and then each pay for own alcohol. Less traumatic than trying to itemize out the whole bill. We do the same with friends if one of us orders something significantly more expensive like a steak and the other couple has burgers. <BR><BR>Might also be a nice gesture to bring this up to Couple #1 that you intend to pay for your wine. It would probably be a load off their mind. I quit drinking for two years and most friends were great about paying for their own alcohol. The ones who didn't are the same who would order an expensive bottle for the table to split and proceed to somehow drink 90% themselves (needless to say, no longer friends).

If you don't want to pay so much for the bottle of wine, don't drink from their bottle. Order you own bottle or by the glass. If you drink their expensive wine you should pay for half of it. <BR>I was the person ordering the expensive wine bottles at dinner in Tuscany last year and the other couple would buy their own cheaper one. We would deduct the difference from their part of the bill. The waiters in Europe aren't as willing to give out separate checks to two couples in general. <BR>Don't make a big deal out of it, just agree with the couple beforehand to order two separate bottles.

Can you just have dinner and later go to a bar?

xxx above has I think the best suggestion. Agreement first leads to ongoing friendship later.

I also agree with xxx's approach for Couple 1 and 2. Deal with it upfront or one or all of you will be posting to the Nightmare Travelling Companion thread.<BR><BR>I think you're going to have to fess up to being budget minded. No crime there and it doesn't make you look like cheapies. How about something like: "We really admire your taste and expertise in wine but we're going to have to stick to the house wine. Let's split the cost of food and pay drinks separately?" And unless they order $500 bottles of wine, don't quibble about the tip...just split it.<BR><BR>

I'd have a dinner party or trip planning meeting ahead of time with all 6 people. Just ask the question, in the kindest but most straight-forward way, as to how you will deal with paying for shared meals in a way that's fair to all.<BR><BR>(Personally, being an ex-waitress, I can do the math for approx. what my drinks, wine, entrees was, add tip, and put the proper amount into the "kitty".)<BR><BR>Do NOT try to get 3 seperate checks. I guarantee it will NOT make you the favorite table of your serving-person.

Here in the states we have a couple we go out with all the time and they too have a fine wine fixation. They like a 1992 Opus One about 200 a bottle , as i don;t drink and my husbnad is a scotch man , they ask to have the Opus put on a seperate check. This works fine and not really a problem anywhere we've ever been.

<BR>Mature adults should be willing to pay for what they order, including expensive wines, and not expect other people to split the bill.

xxx: You are right - except that europe says they fully intend to drink the expensive wine. In that case they should split the bill (unless the Up-Market couple VOLUNTEERS to pay the whole thing.)<BR><BR>europe: If you are sure you can't afford the expensive wines then don't drink it, and as the others said, just deduct the amount from the bill and then split it. <BR><BR>But if you share in the wine you should share in the cost.<BR>

<BR>If the europe couple shares the expensive wine, they should share the cost. If they don't want to spend the money, order a less expensive wine and drink it.

Of course, don't drink their wine if you don't want to split the cost, what is the matter with you europe? Buy your own wine separately, is that so hard?<BR>Just let it all out in the open BEFORE you get to any restaurants or there will be hard feelings, especially if you start dipping into their wine.

How do you derive europe saying he/she fully intends to drink the expensive wine but somehow not pay for it? I think europe is struggling with the idea that splitting the bill is the preferred option but he/she doesn't want to have tell Couple 2 that they can't afford the pricey vino.

<BR>I don't get it. Why can't you say "why don't you two have the $50 bottle of wine and we'll have the $2 glass house wine"?

Maybe you could include the other couple in the cheap wine buying by making a little game out of it--ie, "sure the $50 wine is good, but what could we discover on $20?" Not every night, but half (or whatever suits your budget) <BR>Over the course of a meal my BF and I drink a bottle of wine, so it seems like you might be ordering two bottles anyway. Just order your own, they order theirs, everyone will be happy. You can do it quite easily by deciding you want different wine than they--"oh, you're having a chianti classico? I was set on a Montalpuciano" or whatever. Just don't make a big deal out of it.

I like Jess’ idea of a game, it helps keeps things light. In fact, I’d take it further and indicate that you are looking forward to sharing a bottle of an exceptional wine....but on your last night. For each of the first five nights, keep emphasizing that you will be getting to drink an exceptional wine....later. (Meanwhile, you drink a simpler wine, or go on the wagon temporarily.) This will help get the other couple off the hook and not feel too gluttonous guzzling the expensive stuff in front of you, and you won’t feel as much the poor relations, either. It’s just a game of postponement. (Jess, thank you, I have the feeling your idea has many other applications.)

I don't know where you got the idea we would drink the wine and not expect to pay for it! Solomon..you hit it right on. It's a little humiliating to admit to people you can't afford to drink the good wine they can when you're away with them. This is a great couple, they just have a thing about "good" wine...actually they're wine snobs-there I've said it! Wouldn't matter what the wine tastes like - if it's cheap it must be bad.

Europe - get over the shyness about we can't afford it and hate to mention. Our friends range from people who make less than half our salary and friends who have more money than we'll see in a lifetime. You're obviously good friends if you're traveling and frankly we respect each other alot more for being honest.<BR><BR>We've told our wealthier friends we'd love to go to dinner with them, but just renovated a condo and need to go somewhere moderate. They could care less and I think appreciate the fact that you aren't expecting them to pick up the check. Same with friends who make less, we're happy to go somewhere casual or often we have dinner parties at each other's house.<BR><BR>PS - I'm going to Paris with these friends in October and they're staying at the Four Seasons George V and I'm staying at Hotel du Bourg Tibourg in the Marais. There only response was they're glad they're going to get to know the Marais better since I'll be staying there.<BR><BR>Have a great time, be straight forward and don't worry about the keeping up with the Jones'. If they do have a problem or make an issue of it (which I doubt they will) then this says alot about the value of their friendship.

oops....Their. Off to grammar class I go.

PS regarding the wine snob issue, people don't know wine much if they think expensive = good. The Wall Street just had an article about that saying there's great inexpensive wines (especially in Italy) and there's alot of expensive bad wine on store shelves.

A "Friends" episode had this very problem; resentment built when the issue wasn't immediately addressed. If your friends are worthy travel companions, they're worth honesty. For couple #1, bring up the subject and the solution "we want to be fair; since we will be ordering wine, we'll pay that first before we split the bill" (no tax headaches - it's included in the price of each item, so a $20 bottle of wine already has tax included). The conversation with couple #2 should be just as easy "we know you appreciate fine wines with your meals; we're looking forward to trying some of the local wines. Would it be easier to each pay for our wines separately BEFORE we split the check?" This says you're not nitpickers ("ok you had the terrine and you had the shrimp cocktail which didn't come with the meal...") but you want to be fair.<BR><BR>There are two alternatives: 1)Pick up the tab alternate nights. You pay the entire tab on day one, they pay on day two, etc. 2)Put money in a kitty - everyday, each couple puts in $100 or whatever you decide. Meals (EXCLUSIVE OF ALCOHOL) are paid from the kitty (no need to do math). <BR><BR>This is one of those minor details that can become monumental if it doesn't get resolved early.

Hi europe. Well, technically, I'm sure you *can* afford to drink more expensive wine -- after all, it's usually just a matter of priorities -- but you just don't care to. And I fail to see why anyone should feel humiliated by that. <BR><BR>If this couple is, in fact, a "great" couple, they shouldn't look down their noses at you guys for drinking what you prefer. <BR><BR>Also, this is sure to drive wine snobs ballistic, but whether a wine is "good" or "bad" rests in the eye of the beholder...or, more appropriately, palate of the imbiber. If a less expensive wine tastes good to *you*, then it's "good", no matter what your $50/bottle friends think. <BR><BR>Also regarding xxx's P.S. regarding the wine snob issue, I haven't read the Wall Street Journal article he/she mentioned (do you have a link to that, xxx?), but check out this interesting article in the Seattle Weekly from February of this year: "Wine Snob Scandal."<BR><BR>A Frenchman named Fr&eacute;d&eacute;ric Brochet did a doctoral dissertation entitled "Taste: A Study in the Representation of Chemical Substances in the Arena of Consciousness" which was concerned not with taste in general but specifically with taste as applied to the evaluation and appreciation of wine. <BR><BR>Monsieur Brochet employed three distinct methodologies: <BR><BR>. computerized textual analysis of over 100,000 expert tasting notes (including 9,000 by American wine guru Robert M. Parker Jr.); <BR><BR>. comparison of ratings by expert tasters in totally blind and open tastings of the same wines; <BR><BR>. and real-time functional magnetic imaging of the brains of tasters in the act of tasting. <BR><BR>The article notes that, after appropriate statistical massaging, his results prove that a lot of what wine connoisseurs say about wine is humbug: A side-by-side chart of best-to-worst rankings of 18 wines by a roster of experienced tasters showed about as much consistency as a table of random numbers. <BR><BR><BR>While he may have played more "dirty tricks" on his volunteers, the article specifically points out these two (the second I find particulary hilarious, as well as not all that surprising):<BR><BR>. In one tasting, he served a white wine and elicited all the usual descriptions: "fresh, dry, honeyed, lively." Later he served the same wine dyed red: Out came the red terms: "intense, spicy, supple, deep." <BR><BR>. In another test, he submitted a mid-range Bordeaux in two different bottles, one labeled as a cheap table wine, the other bearing a grand cru etiquette: Guess which one was "woody, complex, and round" and which was "short, light, and faulty"? <BR><BR>The article also notes that Brochet's study aims to go beyond mere pantsing of poseurs. In the introduction to his prizewinning paper, he writes: <BR><BR>"Tasting is [a form of] representation. Indeed, when our brain performs the task of 'recognizing' or 'comprehending,' it is manipulating representations. In reality, the taste of wine is a *perceptual representation*, because it manifests an interaction between consciousness and reality." <BR><BR><BR><BR>

Sorry, forgot to post the URL for the "Wine Snob Scandal" article:<BR><BR>http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0208/news-downey.shtml<BR><BR>P.S. europe, you could always go to a restaurant ahead of time, and pay someone a few euros to pour their house wine into an expensive bottle (when they bring it to your table, your waiter could say someone "mistakenly" opened it.) Then you could offer some of it to your $50/bottle friends and see if they look like they just drank poison...or gush about how delcious it is and what a superb choice you made. :)<BR><BR>Anyway, bottom line: don't let the wine snobs scare ya!

I think this whole matter has less to do with expensive wine and more to do with communicating with travel partners. Perhaps you like to take cabs and they prefer to walk? Or you like to spend hours in museums and they get bored after a few minutes? Or you prefer a day in the country while they are city people? You get the idea. It's always wise to spell out your expectations, ground rules, and what you are willing to compromise on PRIOR to the trip. Buon viaggio!

We know alot of wealthy people, couples who we consider friends, who only want the best. We laugh about it and say, ok, you order "xxxxx", we are ordering "xxxx". If they want to go to very expensive restaurants, we say, go ahead we will meet up later, we're going to a tratoria that we want to try, or something like that.

Make sure you are agreeable to splitting up at dinner, maybe they want to go to an expensive restaurant and are willing for forego it because you aren't up to it. Let them know that they are free to eat anywhere without you.

In Italy I bought myself and my husband the wine I wanted whether it was expensive or not. Our friends would buy their wine by the glass and would have "just a taste" of ours and would end up drinking a good part of the bottle, and we ended up paying. After a few days, I started ordering by the glass too, before I started feeling badly towards them.

We were with another couple who the wife does not drink alcohol, and her husband prefers beer. Every night he would take "just a sip" of the wine we bought, then would continue to fill his glass with wine. Until we started ordering ours by the glass...<BR><BR>One night we had dinner at a restaurant that I had told them in advance was about $75 per person with wine. They were okay with eating there, until the bill was brought. The wife who did not drink was upset that their bill was $150 also, since they did not have any wine. Well her husband had drank about 8 beers that night. <BR><BR>So have to agree, it should be something agreed upon beforehand because this did leave a bad taste in our mouth :), along with some other similar situations.

I'm another one who believes you must address this and many other issues prior to the trip or you may wind up minus some friends. What makes you so sure that saying you don't want expensive wine means you can't afford it? I can afford it, but prefer not to spend my money that way, and I'm upfront with travel companions right away.<BR><BR>I make sure we are on the same wave length as far as financial considerations, how time is spent. I met with a friend over the weekend and we discussed our upcoming trip to Thailand. We agreed that we will do the "sightseeing" thing in the mornings and relax with massages in the hot afternoons (doesn't that sound great?) Better to go with a clear understanding of each other's expectations than have hard feelings later.

In agreement with Nutella, this is not really about wine (well only in a very round-about way). You need to be able to communicate openly about ANYthing that comes up during the course of a trip with your chosen 5 companions. The cost of a meal and/or drinks may turn out to be the least of your problems. Get it out in the open!! Don't be shy about addressing issues. It will only bite you in the b*tt quicker than you can imagine!<BR><BR>And as for the people who are drinking wine paid for by others when this is not what was 'expected' by either party... well if your friends really are so lacking in manners and sensitivity, I would question your own choice of traveling with them in the first place.

Marcia and Lisa, with most of our friends, an agreement is an agreement. But one couple in particular would behave as the ones you describe did. Specifically, they’d agree to one thing, and then do another, no matter how clearly we thought everything had been communicated beforehand. This was what really irked – the betrayal of trust, not the value of the wine (or whatever) being taken. I wonder if it was/is the same with you (or anyone else reading.) <BR><BR>We haven’t seen that couple in a long time. But if something like it happened again, I’d be willing to try a reverse version of what I suggested above. To the friend trespassing on my boundaries I’d try saying, humourously but firmly, that tonight is No-taste, No-share Night, whereas next time (or tomorrow or the last day or whenever) is the night we’ll look forward to sharing with them. I know I wouldn’t be willing let alone able to enforce any ultimatums, so I wouldn’t make any. Besides, as I said, it isn’t really the wine or whatever that is at issue. What I’d want to do is ensure that my friends understood that their ‘minimizing’ the violation by saying “we’re ‘just’ doing this” is the harm I consider being done, because in minimizing their actions, they seemed to me to be minimizing the importance of trust in friendships. And as I said, the undermining of trust undermined the friendship, not the loss of the wine or the money or whatever. I’d be interested to hear others’ take on this, especially since I may have overlooked something.<BR>

Sue, <BR><BR>Yes, it was not the cost of the wine whatsoever. And we were not drinking $50 USD bottles of wine, more like $20 USD, but it could have been $100 or $5, we would have felt the same.<BR><BR>And ex-waitress, we had no idea that this person would behave as he did. We were completely surprised as this behaviour did not "fit" the mold of this person.

Sue,<BR><BR>Are you a preschool teacher? Perhaps your methodology has some credibility with the five and under set but I can't believe you'd look an adult in the eye and say "No Tastee, No Sharee tonite folks!"<BR><BR>I'm going to assume that your boundary stomping ex friends aren't around by mutual agreement.

Europe,<BR><BR>As with most things, this seemingly complex set of problems can be solved, quite simply, through the application of mathematics and logic.<BR><BR>Since couple #1 doesn't drink (are you sure you really wish to travel with them?) we will assign them a value of "0". And, since couple #2 obviously drink like fish, we will assign them a value of "10". You two--being in the middle--receive a value of "5".<BR><BR>Now, let's say all three couples are out to dinner together on a Tuesday evening in August. First, don't order the oysters because August doesn't have an "r" in it...but I digress. <BR><BR>FIRST, look at the date on which you are eating (for arguments sake let's say it's September 7th, 1941--a day that will live in infamy! Sorry about that, I digressed again). Okay, it's definitely September 7th but of the current year. So there you are eating on Tuesday, September 7th, 2002. Wait a second...September 7th of this year is actually on a Saturday. Okay. I've got it now. All three couples are eating out at the restaurant on Saturday, September 7th, 2002. Are you with me so far?<BR><BR>The second thing you must do is further assign values to the days of the week and month of the year; the actual calendar day already has its own value of "7". Since a week traditionally begins with Sunday (except in the countries where it does not) then Saturday, being the seventh day of the week, receives a value of “7”. September, being the ninth month of the year, receives a value of “9”. Still with me? Good.<BR><BR>Now that we have values assigned to all the factors, it becomes a simple case to determine who pays for what and on which night. In our example, for example, we have three couples (3x2=6) dining on Saturday (Saturday=7) September 7th (September 7th = 9x7=63) in 2002 (2002). This equation can be replaced quite simply by: 2002/6x7+7x63. The answer, of course, is 4.14492753623188405797101449275362. If you take this number and then multiply it by the value assigned to each couple, you have your answer.<BR><BR>What does this mean? It’s quite simple, really. Since couple number two’s value is “10” and you multiply 4.14492753623188405797101449275362 by ten, then if the total cost of the bill is around or over $41.44 on this particular night then they pay it. If, however, the total bill is at least—but not over--$20.72 then “Europe” pays it (4.14492753623188405797101449275362 x 5). Finally, if the total bill is –0-, then couple number one pays it (4.14492753623188405797101449275362 x 0 = 0). <BR><BR>One last thing: the time of the dinner may be a factor as well.<BR><BR>Hope this helps,<BR><BR>Dr. Al<BR><BR>

Dr. Al, you are too much!! Reading your post was a good way for me to start the weekend. Glad to know some of you do have personalities afterall, I was beginning to wonder with all the boring posts lately.