Espress? Need Help from Francophones
 

I'm proofreading a book (A Cara Black mystery) that keeps referring to "espress."

As in "Two espress, s'il vous plaît," said Morbier. Or "The scent of the espress wafted...."

I've never seen that before. Google doesn't help. Do you think it's just a bad transliteration to English? Should it be "express?" What about the plural?

Sorry, but this is driving me nuts. Maybe it's correct, but it just looks so odd on the page.

StCirq, you know I've got experience with both French and Italian, and it sounds to me as though in dialogue someone is attempting to order "due espressi", two expresso coffees. Sounds a bit like someone took a liberty with a mash-up, but that's merely my first impression.

Bonne chance,
BC

It's wrong - express (with x) means very rapidly, quickly, but if it is the coffee it has to be the Italian word espresso even in French.

In French the plural would be espressos, while in Italian it is espressi.

Exactly what I thought, DL. Thank you.

Now, is it Pont de l'Alma or Pont d'Alma? I find both in all kinds of sources.

I've heard <i>un espress très serré</i> from my cousin in Paris, and that is what I say it, although I can't be trusted to be 100% accurate.

I've also heard espress used in French.

Pont de l'Alma, as every line diagramme from RATP will tell you. It refers to a battle of the Crimean War. The Alma is a small river in what today is the Ukraine.

Bridges, streets, roads and other objects named for rivers, mountains and other natural landmarks do take the definite article of the object they are named for (pont du Gard, rue du Rhône, place des Vosges etc.), while thoroughfares named for cities don't (rue de Berlin, pont d'Iéna, rue de Rome etc.).

Phil.

Kerouac wil probably know for sure, but if it's in a Cara Black book, I would assume it must be wrong.

The plural in French of express is "deux express", that's all. You can't add more letters to pluralize a word ending in two s's already.

If it is used by someone in Paris as espress, I suspect it would be just in speech (slurring speech, that wouldn't be correct to write it that way, but people might say that sloppily, sure), or using Italian words as they do use Italian for coffee a lot, you see that in shops and it's sold that way a lot (like Nespresso, or that chain coffee shop in the airports, Lillypress or something like that). If the character were Italian it might make sense.

oh, you do know they call espresso "express" in France, don't you? Express is certainly correct, but not espress.

I'm familiar with the battle. I've never heard anyone use the definite article with Pont Bir Hakeim, though, and that was originally an oasis before becoming associated with a battle.

According to <u>Le petit parisien</u>, it is Pont de l'Alma. That's how it reads on its map.

Officially it's "pont DE Bir Hakeim". Bir Hakeim is considered to be a town rather than a natural landmark, so no definite article. Battles may decide wars, but not the use of definite articles ;-)

Phil.

By the way: Larousse doesn't know anything about "espress" or "espresso". True Frenchman, he prefers "café express" or, at the limit, "expresso"...

Even assuming that one says "e<b>s</b>press" (I am not sure that one hears what should be said knowing the spelling or what is actually said), shouldn't the narration use the written word spelling, and because it is an English text, perhaps even use "... <i>espresso</i> wafting ..."?

interesting article by food blogger David Lebowitz from Paris, note that this is a "short-list of places where one can be pretty much assured of having a properly-made café express."

http://www.davidlebovitz.com/2008/07...coff/#more-784

he lists that place I was thinking of, it's Illy not lilly

I thought "express" was incorrect - as I understand it, that is exclusively a reference to quickness. I do hear "café express" from time to time, but not just "express" alone.

I do hear French people SAYING "espress" (and yes, of course I know the plural would be the same), but my issue is how it should be written - on the page, "espress" looks really odd to me.

I'm going to go with espresso and espressos.

I think you've got it on the espresso front.

BC

We all know that foreign words often come out sounding a bit different from their strict spelling when pronounced colloquially - French is full of such practices - M'sieur, pas d'quoi, va t' faire (cuire on oeuf, to keep it clean)... and on and on, so I'm sure you hear espresso minus the o at the end, and with a hint of an x for the double ss.

Now if the writer tried to convey that, it should have appeared in italics. Did it? If not, then it is sloppy writing and even sloppier editing.

Yes, DL, for the most part all foreign words and phrases appear in itals, which is part of my job to ensure as proofreader (these books need serious work). BUT "espress" did not appear in itals.

Don't even talk to me about sloppy editing; the reason I'm proofreading this book is because I complained ad nauseum to the publisher that I couldn't bear to read another of her books until they got the editing and proofing done right. Amazingly, they hired me to fix them. Cara's a friend of mine and I'm happy to help her. They're great mysteries, just need a lot of editing to make the place names and other French words right. I'm on it, and thanks for your help.

Cool, never heard of her but I'll check her out. Just googled her - no relation to Cara Black the tennis player from Zimbabwe?

Anyhow, I shall raid my library. Should I read them in French for better local flavor?

Another vote for express, from le Petit Robert:
Express: n. m. Cafe express: fait a la vapeur, a l'aide d'un percolateur.
Plus court: Boire deux express

Two French friends just answered. Here are their answers:

Un café ;-)

More seriously:
- Un express is now rarely used, but it is the correct French word.
- Un espresso is not unfrequent, and is one of the italian words that
French people can pronounce (esPRESso)
- Indeed one hears something likes un espress?


Non, tu dirais : « Un expresso, s’il vous plaît », ou alors « Une noisette » avec un tout petit peu de lait, ou alors « Un crème » avec beaucoup de lait. En belge (seulement), tu dirais « Un lait russe » pour du lait avec très peu de café dedans, etc.

<b>Express</b> is what people say for the coffee, even though the official name is <i>espresso</i>. Singular and plural are the same for express. Nobody would say <i>espress</i> unleth they have a thpeech impediment.

Actually, it is far more common to hear people order "deux cafés" and then it is the waiter who yells back to the bar "deux express". "Café" said by a French person means espresso; if you say it with a foreign accent, you are likely to be interrogated by a waiter in a tourist area about what kind of coffee you mean. They have brought an espresso too many times only to be asked 'can I have some <i>du lait</i> with it'?

I think Kerouac has nailed it, and I can hear the serveur calling the order back to the bar. In my mind's ear, the word is indeed "express".

The interrogation as to the customer's intention is one of my little amusements. I use it as an indicator of how well my French is going that day. I am sure that every French native would recognise my accent as foreign, but there is a level that I can reach where it seems that I must be sufficiently au fait with French ways that when I order a café, I get what a French person would get.

Boy, not in the central Parisian neighborhoods where I have stayed. It has always been pronounced "espress", however it is spelled. My wife has a "cafe' creme" (sorry about the accents) and I have a "gran' espress". Maybe all the waiters are from the south, like the people who say "Ouai" rather than "oui."

I always assumed that is like Spanish speakers from the Caribbean here in the US who say "Gracia" without the final "s" or Argentinians who say "cabajo" instead of "caballo".

Anyway, I always get my coffee and only wish that "grand" meant a little larger than it actually is.

"Ouais" is the Parisian pronunciation of "oui" -- not at all from the south.

>"deux express"<

Is that pronounced with <i>liaison</i>?

((I))

Wow. More confused than ever. Even my own French friends responded with differing views. I think I'm now favoring "deux express."

DL, I know Cara's books have been translated to French, but I wonder about the quality of the translation (have no idea who managed that part of the publication process - it could be brilliant for all I know). But no, she's not a tennis player from Zimbabwe - she lives in San Francisco!

To add to the confusion, here are some more answers from Paris:

personnellement, je commande : un "café serré" dans les établissements que je fréquente. Parfois j'insiste avec un "café très serré à l'italienne".
les garçons annoncent " Un serré !"

Il se peut qu'on dise espresso ou expresso avec ou sans l'accent tonique, les Français ne sont pas doués pour les langues étrangères, même s'ils ont le palais développé...



La prononciation juste serait un express mais de fait le x est doux ce qui donne un flou espress.



I would order: un café. In France, café = espresso, you don’t need to be more specific. You can also say: un expresso ou un express, it’s very common. In any case, you have to pronounce the “x” à la française.
If you really want a coffee in the Italian espresso style, you have to specify: serré.

I thought when you order a 'cafe', you get an expresso?

I too rememeber waiters saying to the 'barista' un espress. To me it sounded more like an 's' than 'x'.

I suddenly remembered this thread when I came across these photos from an autoroute service station.

http://anyportinastorm.proboards.com...1&page=1#95698

She LIVES in San Francisco? Now? CALL her, for crying out loud.

Due Expressi per favore..

For cryin' out loud to you, Dukey, why would I call her? She doesn't speak much French and she's the original source of all the errors in the book! And that's not a slam - she's a friend of mine and has built a lovely career with these books, but it's up to editors and proofreaders to take care of details like this.

You must be proof-reading Murder in the Palais Royale
that is coming out in March?

Yes, cigale. Also proofed the reprint of Murder in the Marais.

StCirq, will your proof make a huge difference from the copy I have? Maybe I need to buy the new copy?

No, Mimi. No need to buy a new copy. I wasn't editing it, just proofreading. The main thing will be the French words (and Italian and German) will be spelled correctly this time around, and a host of typos in English will be fixed, and the names of streets and stores, etc., in Paris will be correct now. Nothing that most readers would even notice, I shouldn't think.