|
English speaking
Help - we are going to Belguim for 8 days and speak very little French - and no Flemish - how easy will it be to navigate our way around? We are doing Brussels, Bruges and Antwerp.
Hubby is particularly worried about working out menus in restaurants |
Greetings. It's been a while since I've been to Belgium but I went with a friend who can hardly speak English (oh, okay, she speaks English fine but nothing else) and we had no problem in either French Brussels or Flemish Brugges. In Flemish territory you wil find fewer English speakers but you will discover the most wonderfully pleasant people who make every effort to communicate with you. Not at all snooty or resentful that you don't speak their language. Au contraire! The folks in Brugges and other Flemish areas were SO nice that I felt bad I knew only French. In French speaking Belgium, many - MANY - people speak English. It is one of the EU languages and you will not experience any difficulty, especially if you remember to greet people before asking questions. Have a great trip. Belgium is a lovely country with people who still, after all these years, remember WWII with gratitude - and great chocolate candy at the source!!
|
Most Belgians speak better English than most Americans. People in Antwerp are extremely courteous and egalitarian.
Have a great time! |
Thanks - that sets my mind at ease. Can't wait for our trip - we are going during the Chocolate festival, then on to Antwerp. Chocolates and diamonds - this is going to be a great 25th wedding anniversary!
|
It's quite an exaggeration to say that Belgians speak better English than Americans. It's very rare to find any non-native speaker of English who has mastered the language to a greater extent than an average native speaker, and this is especially true for the spoken language.
|
Interesting! English competence is in the ear of the listener. Some CNN English speakers are incomprehensible, English TV speakers are the same. A German TV station (DW) has the most lucid English speakers I know of. ESL teachers are charged to teach standard pronounciation. International English is developing its own standards of clarity and lexical meanings. Most 'tourist' menus include English equivalents.
|
Anthony, I'm afraid that I would disagree. The English language has been gradually eroded thanks to the slovenly attitudes of most native speakers. I increasingly find that non-native speakers demonstrate a far better grasp of grammar, puncutuation and spelling.
This upsets me greatly. I'm on a one-woman campaign! |
Non-native speakers have a good grasp of grammar rules, punctuation, and spelling, but their pronunciation is often very poor, and their fluency and vocabulary are often dismal—so overall they are still worse off than the average native speaker.
The skills of native speakers vary with their education. In countries with poor educational systems, or an obsession with political correctness that eschews any hint of rules or standards (read: the U.S.), the skills of native speakers are often rather weak. However, they still tend to pronounce quite well, and they are usually fairly fluent in speech (if not in writing). I've never noticed any problems understanding CNN or the BBC. Both tend to speak with one of the two widely accepted and understood standard pronunciations: American English for CNN, and British English (a variation on RP) for the BBC. These are the same pronuncations taught in ESL, and American English in particular is also the native pronunciation of the greatest number of native English speakers (more than 300 million). When visiting Europe, you're likely to find English speakers easily along the tourist routes, but they may become rare if you stray off the beaten path. Some countries are better than others in this respect. The Dutch spend a lot of time learning English well because almost no one else in the world speaks their language; but Europeans from Latin countries sometimes can barely manage hello or goodbye. In summary, then: You'll probably encounter quite a few people who speak English anywhere in Europe, particularly if you stick to tourist routes, but do not <i>expect</i> anyone to speak English, and realize that you may not be able to find any English speakers if you move out of tourist areas. |
Who speaks "better", i.e. with greater command of nuance and a broader range of expression? The native speaker, of course.
But who speaks more correctly? Consider the following expressions, common at home but seldom heard on the lips of a foreign English-speaker: 1. You did good. (Correct only if addressing Mother Theresa) 2. I'm good.(Yes, but are you well?) 3. Later, I lay down. (What did you lay down?) 4. If I would have known, I may have done it different. (And if you had known, you might have done it differently.) I suspect you could hear any of the above from leading politicians or broadcasters any day of the week. (The other day, I read a memo from one of our staff legal counsel: "And through this entire process, I kept Sarah upraised.") |
Oh Ted, whilst I find myself laughing, it's very painful reading!
|
Over the years, I've run into plenty of Belgians who don't speak English very well, if they speak it at all. My hairdressers don't. Our plumber doesn't. The cashiers at our favorite supermarket don't. And the bureaucrats in our commune *pretend* they don't.
But as tourists, you have nothing to worry about in any of the cities on your itinerary. If you can manage to learn even a few phrases in Dutch, you will get smiles (and surprised faces) in Bruges and Antwerp. In Brussels, try your French. Tourist-oriented restaurants should have menus available in English. Once you get out of the main tourist zones of Brussels, however, menus are more likely to be available in French only (but the food will be much better!). Staff will help you, though, as they are used to dealing with many anglophone expats who live here for years and don't bother to learn any French (and forget about Flemish/Dutch). Sigh. |
As in most parts of the world, the likelihood of finding English-speakers in Belgium is directly proportional to the number of tourists and foreign businesspeople who are to be found. Same goes for finding menus in English.
So if you're at a restaurant in the Ilot Sacre in Bruseels (a pleasant but touristy area near the Grand Place), English will be as common as French or Dutch. On the other hand, if you're in some small town 70km inland from Brussels, finding anglophones will be a far more difficult proposition. I strongly agree with those who suggest learing a few basic polite phrases in French and Dutch -- that will earn you enormous amounts of goodwill. Also, and this is important in Belgium, you should understand that Belgium is strictly divided by language: except for the city of Brussels, each region in Belgium is either a French region or a Flemish (Dutch) region. If you're in a Flemish region, use only the Dutch polite phrases; if you don't know the Dutch phrase, use English rather than using French. Same thing in a French region: use only the French phrases, or English as a backup. It's as if someone will go ballistic if you make a mistake (esp if you're clearly neither a native French nor Dutch speaker), but showing some sensibilities for the whole language issue will earn you points. |
Forgot to add: Brussels is a fully bilingual city, and the only bilingual place in Belgium, which means that it's perfectly ok to speak either French or Dutch in Brussels.
|
Putting Americans down has become a sort of custom here, particularly by other Americans who like to feel aloof to their fellow countrymen. Sometimes it's putting them down for what they wear, sometimes for what they eat, and now for being able to speak their native language.
MOST Belgians clearly do not speak better English that MOST Americans. They may speak it slowly and more clearly so it can be understood -- in other words their articulation may be more slow and deliberate as opposed to a rapid speaking American, but their use of tense, number, and word order will certainly not match the comprehension level of MOST native American speakers. And it is just plain silly to think so. Again here, the key words were MOST and MOST, not SOME amd SOME. |
Oh and by the way, while I'm not looking at exact figures, I'd be somewhat surprised if MOST Belgians speak much English at all, yet alone fluently. I'm not just talking about the ones living in the major cities who deal with tourists or business trade. I'm speaking about ALL Belgians, including the rural ones, those in small towns, and farmers.
|
Rizzuto, Brussels is SUPPOSED to be fully bilingual; the reality is quite different. You will find many French speaking residents who most certainly do not speak Dutch. When I worked for a pharma company just outside town, my Flemish coworkers frequently complained about how little Dutch is actually spoken or understood in much of Brussels.
|
The key word is "most."
I don't know Belgium that well but do know the Netherlands. Most Dutch people I have come in contact with over the years speak English very very well and many of them speak English, and they sort of prefer American and Canadian English to UK English (but that's a generalization) with hardly any accent...my goodness gracious to be able to speak Dutch must make English a piece of cake. I would suspect that in the northern part of Belgium, where Dutch (which is the same basically as Flemish) is the language, English would be very widely spoken as quite frankly you're not going to be able to get very far in the world with knowledge only of Dutch while in the French areas of the country since French is a world language somewhat, it is not as important. But that is only a guess on my part I do admit. |
xyz, it is true that many, many Dutch do in fact speak English. It is actually claimed that is because Dutch is so like English, a statement I don't "get" but will leave to the experts.
But it is certainly not true that the same numbers of Belgians are fluent in English as the Dutch, particularly the French and/or Flemish speaking ones, who last I knew outnumbered the Dutch speaking ones. |
Oops, can I withdraw that last statement? I should have actually said the Dutch speaking ones outnumber the French/Flemish speaking ones last I knew. The MOST term still applies to the idea that more than half of all Belgians are fluent in English.
|
Darn, I'll get this right yet. The problem with my other statement is that I combined French/Flemish, when I meant to combine Dutch/Flemish which is the "common" language outnumbering the French speaking ones which are less in number. Is that finally right? Now for more coffee.
|
Dutch is soooo close to German, yet the Dutch have such a strong "Dutch" accent when speaking German. However, I've got no problems reading Dutch books and I've never had a single Dutch language lesson :-) Must be naturally talented opposed to those Americans ;-)
|
I met a girl in Cambridge whose English accent I couldn't quite place. It sounded a little midlands, a little Yorkshire, and a little BBC, but not exactly any of them. I asked her where she was from.
"Utrecht." |
And yes, German will do fine in Dutch speaking areas if you can speak it. You're being understood 100%, but sometimes the answer comes in English, because people didn't learn German and are afraid of making a mistake.
|
There are native speakers of English who do make many errors, but in my 50 years of travel I have rarely come across a non-native speaker of the language who doesn't make errors as well.
A particular non-native English speaker might or might or might not say "You did good," but he will likely come out with some very interesting phrasing of his own creation. |
I know lots of naitive English speakers too who say, "I did good."
|
Neopolitan...
You essentially finally got it correct...Flemish essentially is Dutch. There is also, from what I read and I have not experienced this pesonally, quite a bit of friction between the Flemish and French areas of the country and perhaps a Flemish person would rather speak to a tourist in English rather than French (note I said perhaps before anybody jumps on me). |
Dragonfly...just to throw another curve ball...when in Antwerp, especially in the diamond exchange area, Yiddish will get you by better than any other language. There are over 25,000 pure Yiddish speakers within that colorful city....one of the largest concentrations remaining in the world, after the decimation, 1933-1945.
Stu T. |
Hi dragonfly,
my daughter goes to Belgium and Amsterdam every year, she rented an apt one year, and she does not speak anything but a bit of German and English. She stays at the Hotel Welcome in Brussels, they all speak English in the hotel. Antwerp is where she rented a car and drove to look at the countryside. She never has a problem with the language. Marling Menu Master is good to take with you for restaurants, but I think you will manage fine , I never hear any stories of people having a problem. (Practice some basics anyway-please, thank you and hello, that sort of thing) :) |
...but no Belgian would misuse 'decimation'.
Antwerp's Jews most certainly were not 'decimated'. The murders were precisely ten times that great. |
Cotswold...you appartently misread my statement above..of course I was referring to the decimation caused by the holocaust..6 million of the Europes 9 million Jews, most of them Yiddish-speakers. The 25,000 or so Yiddish speakers in Antwerp today represent one of the largest concentrations remaining.
Stu T. |
Let me play arbitrator here.
I believe Cotswald was referring to the often misuse of the term decimated. It does not mean "wiped out" as some would believe. Decimation is the act of removing every tenth person or 10%. For the decimation of the 9 million Jews in Europe, only 900,000 would have been killed. What happened was far worse than decimation of a race. His comment that the results were ten times that in Antwerp refers to the fact that they were totally removed. |
oops. And lest I get attacked by the purists and the pedantic here, yes I do realize that this is another of those words that frequent misuse has allowed a possibly accepted technically incorrect usage of the term. The term decimate today may indicate a major drastic reduction -- but still not total.
|
Neopolitan...that's why my publisher assigns a very good editor to me! Thank goodness!
Reducing the holocaust to numbers is something I've always hesitated to touch, having lost a major part of those blood relations we still had in Eastern Europe at the time. As far as we've ever been able to determine, only three survived out of about 60 on my dad's side. My dad and his immediate family had emigrated to USA waay back in 1912-1914, but unfortunately many other segments of the family stayed on. Stu T. |
There is no one set correct form of English. English changes every day. Context or lexical context will depend on meanings each speaker and listener agree to. A Grammar gaff is nothing, a vocabulary error may be a disaster. i asked for a short trim. I got a short trim!
|
Neopolitan,
If someone wanted to be pedantic he could say that "mediator" would have been a better choice that "arbitator" since the latter is generally a person who is chosen by the parties in dispute while the former is someone who intervenes for the purpose of conciliating the parties. He might also say that the phrase "...referring to the often misuse of..." is improperly constructed. "Frequent misuse" or "common misuse" might be what you should have written. However, as I am not a pedant I wouldn't do that. |
...and I would <u>never</u> stoop to point out that "arbitrator" has an "r" in it.;)
|
I'm so glad you wouldn't. I've had enough of the pedantic diatribes around here lately, including one that went on and on about the spelling of my screen name. I look at this forum as a fun place to browse and talk about travel and related issues, and would prefer not to have to proof every thing I say with a stack full of dictionaries. That screen name diatribe even got into the silly "my dictionary is better than your 8 dictionaries" argument. Who cares?
And I didn't mean to take over and speak for Cotswold. It's just that I knew what he was driving at and felt I could explain it. Did I really say, "often misuse of the term"? Oh well, as I said, "who cares?" |
How refreshing to see such a declaration of principles from one who was googling frantically for the most pedantic definition of megalopolis he could find to win the pettiest points imaginable.
The overwhelming majority of Belgians in Brussels, Brugge and Antwerp -- where the oringial poster is going -- are very well-schooled in English, and it is reflected in the speech. Wish America had their teachers for the past 25 years! Maybe some of the people so exercised by seeing that in print might actually visit Brussels, Antwerp and Bruges sometime and listen. (That is if they ever stop pontificating.) Goes out of the realm of being pedantic or literalminded into just plain knuckleheaded. |
"The English language has been gradually eroded..." "Erosion" is a natural process, whether geologic or linguistic. Languages are not static. Nor is their evolution the result of laziness or carelessness. Language evolves because societies evolve, along with their needs. Certainly an individual can be ignorant of grammar, punctuation and spelling, but an individual cannot change a language. Personally, I still cringe whenever I see a split infinitive, but it is increasingly accepted. Even a few of my grammar books now refuse to condemn the practice. On the original topic of English speakers in Belgium, I had a memorable experience last year in Leuven. A young woman (probably a student) approached me in a laundromat and began speaking a Germanic-sounding language, which I assumed was Flemish. From my expression and body language, she almost instantly sensed that I didn't speak the language and switched to French, practically in mid-sentence. I read French well, but speak it only rather poorly. From my obvious American accent she deduced that I was an English speaker and effortlessy switched to English. The most amazing thing about the encounter was the fluidity of the process. I was profoundly impressed. She was also typically Belgian in another sense. She was very friendly and sociable. |
Sorry, everyone...I innocently made mention of one other language that one commonly hears on the streets of Antwerp. I did this just on the off chance that the OP knew Yiddish. I had no desire to get into a pedantic avalanche. Our allegiance and attention must be to the OP and his/her quest for information. Or am I mistaken?
Stu T. |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:56 AM. |