ekscrunchy, koreaprincess and franco invite you to join them expanding on the secrets of Italian cuisine
 

Behind us are weeks of fascinating & funny explorations of Italian food, cuisine & recipes, with ekscrunchy, Eloise and franco as the original cast, and recently - since Eloise hasn't unfortunately been around for quite a while - with koreaprincess as a new companion on our virtual gastronomic tours. Till now, though, these gastronomic chats have been scattered over the whole Italian forum, so we've now decided to open a specific thread - not for restaurant recommendations in the first place (though we wouldn't exclude them, I guess), but for questions of Italian home-cooking, particular ingredients, recipe exchange and so on, exploring these topics quite in-depth, and without any reluctance to lead the discussion off-topic - at least, that's our habit of discussing these matters so far, and while we thought for a long while to be all alone in (immensely) enjoying these conversations, quite many other users admitted over the time that they were following, too - silently, unfortunately.

Well, for Roman and Venetian food, we're having our proved and tested threads (where much of our exploration of Italian cuisine originated), which are still going strong, and the new thread is not meant to change this - here are the links to those original threads:
ROME:
ek's gastronomic Rome trip - preparation (don't let the thread's title confuse you): http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34895007
ek's wonderful trip report: http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34931625
franco's favourite Roman food (& restaurants): http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34792415
VENICE:
franco's favourite Venetian food (& restaurants): http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34791666

For the "small" rest of Italy, though, we thought it might be a good idea to bundle all gastronomic questions & answers, and to make them more easily traceable for you others - we do hope this will help, firstly, to convince Eloise to rejoin us, and secondly, to make our conversation enjoy the participation of many more users who didn't chime in so far!!

Thanks! ttt.

Bookmarking - thanks!

My partner just made the most delicious pasta dish the other day. He made fresh parpadelle and dressed it with caramelized parsnips, crispy guancale(sp) and pecorino. The "sauce" was the rendered fat from the guancale. It was very good, if a bit on the dry side. The parsnips were sweet and were a great counter to the salty pig meat. My question is: Are parsnips a commonly used vegetable in any Italian regional food?

-Bill

Bill, I think I read that parsnips are fed to the pigs that make Parma ham. Parsnips have been cooked in Europe for centuries--the ancient Romans used to get them from Germany.

I'm vegetarian and by no means an Italian food expert so hopefully others will chime in about current useage. Now I want to make roasted parsnips, carrots, and fennel...

Well, I am no expert but I have never seen parsnips, either in Italy or in an Italian cookbook. But certainly the Italian tradition would be to use the best of the freshest seasonal ingredients, so...

This is great!
I'll look in the English version of the Silver Spoon italian cookbook for parsnips.

Check it out and let us know..I do not see it in Marcella Hazan. On a related note, I don't really see carrots used much as a stand-alone ingredient in Italian cooking, either, but you do see them used, I think, in the base for dishes like coda alla vaccinara and other meat-based dishes.

ekscrunchy, a belated thanks to you for the tip in your excellant report about garum. I'm going to look for it in Rome next month since it'll make a great prezzie for my foodie friends. (BTW, zingermans.com has it but it's $35 for 100ml.)

Back to parsnips: I just pulled out one of our parsnip recipes (from consciouschoice.com) and according to the author, Terra Brockman, in The Roman Cookery of Apicius you can find "such tasty delights as parsnips simmered in white wine and olive oil, parsnips with cumin and chives, and a vegetarian sausage made from boiled parsnips pounded with cooked spelt, eggs, nuts, pepper, and stock, then roasted in casing and served up with wine sauce."

Looking forward to hearing about the present day situation...Fodor's is a strange and wonderful place.

Those lucky pigs! Actually we are the lucky ones because we get to eat the pigs. :-d

Parsnips in Italian is pastinaca. I'll have to look for it as I am salivating on the menus of the restaurants we'll be eating at in Rome in two weeks.

Bill

Parsnips? Never seen in Italy! And it's also not true that they were common in Roman antiquity - Apicius has no more than three recipes (which is like nothing in his huge cookbook) for "carrots or parsnips", so he doesn't even make a difference between them (carrots, too, are fairly uncommon with Apicius). And no, these are NOT the three recipes you've found, mvor, sorry: those seem to be inventions of Mrs. Brockman (whom I don't know - I'm not a cookbook expert, but sort of an Apicius expert, since ancient Roman cuisine is one of my greatest passions).

Carrots, in modern Italy, go into many soffritti - the classic soffritto consists of onions and celery, but other vegetables may go into it, and the most frequently encountered are garlic and carrots. (A soffritto, for those who don't know yet, is a preparation of minced vegetables fried in fat, mostly of course in olive oil, most Italian recipes would start out with - in fact, starting out with a soffritto is one of the main characteristics of Italian cuisine, and one of the few that are characteristic for all Italian regions with their otherwise so extremely diverse cuisines... but the soffritto is what most Italian recipes would start out with, all over Italy.)

I've read that parsnips though not served in Italy but are fed to pigs to produce the best Parma ham.

I guess that's why I've never seen parsnips in Italy - nobody so far planned on making Parma ham of me :) Seriously, that's an interesting information, and I didn't know.
But what I wanted to add, for Bill, on the question of rather dry pasta sauce - a solution would be to work part of the parsnips into a cream with some bechamel sauce, and work the guanciale fat into it... that would be similar to what I'm doing with Jerusalem artichokes, a pasta sauce as well (I'm not a big parsnip buff, I must admit). The crispy part, in this case, are thin slices of raw Jerusalem artichoke. The effect is similar to what you are describing, sweet (the Jerusalem artichoke cream) and crispy. The third ingredient, in my case, is not cheese, however - here it goes with prawns.

Thanks. Well, that was fun. I wonder how a soffritto made with parsnips instead of carrots would change a dish?

franco, I had some of the pasta leftovers for lunch today and I added some cream and a little chicken stock and it worked like a charm! Very good.

Bill

Hi Franco, I swear I remember reading that Tiberius was very fond of parsnips? Perhaps that's just vegetarian propaganda... I knew as a vegetarian and a non-cook that I should have stayed out of this thread. Anyway, what did Apicius recommend that we do with the parsnips/carrots?

Bill, enjoy your trip to Roma!

Now I'll have to be on the lookout for garum AND parsnips when we go to Rome in April...It's a tough job but I believe I will persevere.

Stay out?? Why? No!! This is not a thread for carnivores only... I don't know anything about the Tiberius-parsnips-relation, but maybe he was fond of them, why not? They were uncommon, but not unknown.
The three recipes, though, are very, very plain, in fact, rather disappointing (thinking of the marvels the ancient Roman cuisine is capable of):
1. Fried & served with a mixture of liquamen and wine (liquamen is something we've discussed on ek's food report thread, towards the end - may I direct everybody there, please, instead of repeating it here?)
2. with salt (not a common ingredient in ancient Roman cooking!!!), (olive) oil and vinegar (for boiled parsnips/carrots, I presume, though the recipe doesn't say anything)
3. boiled & minced carrots (this recipe says definitely "carrots", though it is in the "carrots or parsnips" chapter) with some strong cumin oil. (Cumin oil, that should be olive oil flavoured with - maybe ground - cumin, and the recipe requires strong cumin oil, i.e. flavoured with plenty of cumin.)
Sorry, mvor, these are no showcases of ancient cooking - merely sidedishes... the ancient Romans were definitely no vegetarians, rather on the contrary!

Thanks for sharing those recipes, Franco and for encouraging a novice to participate. BTW, I still enjoy the ancient Romans even if they were carnivores!

**Liquamen aka garum or muria = fish sauce (explained in better detail in the previous thread).

What a wonderful post! Thank you, franco, and everyone else who contributes! :-)

Thank you Franco, for including me in this new post on Italian cuisine secrets. I am honored. Mario Batalli has a cookbook from his restaurant Babbo and uses parsnips quite often. They are closely related to the carrot and I also read they were used in Roman times. I like the recipe for pasta with parsnips, and pancetta. I also use them when I roast root vegetables for pureeing in sauces.
Here is some food for thought (you'll pardon the pun): who agrees with me that they prefer grana padana to pecorino? I find pecorino to be too salty. First choice, of course, would be reggiano.
But since I am in Korea, I am grateful to find any hard grating cheese and I'd kill for some delicious ricotta cheese!

I agree with you about the cheese. First choice is always Reggiano Parm but if not, then some other grana. Even if the recipe calls for pecorino, I will use a grana. For a short while I was buying a pecorino studded with tiny bits of black truffle but have now lost my enthusiasm for that as well.

Korea, that is interesting about the parsnips. I had that cookbok here for several weeks, borrowed from the library, and never spotted the parsnip recipes! (I also had the Molto Italiano book here and used it much more frequently than the Babbo book).

Princess, pecorino vs. parmigiano, that depends on the pecorino, and on the recipe! First of all, Grana Padano is a cheese that I thoroughly dislike, and though I think that grana is preferable to nothing, I agree this means a choice to its favour if nothing else is available. But as far as pecorino, its being salty or not depends on WHICH pecorino we're talking about. Pecorino Romano is terribly salty, and yes, I admit, it's worse than Grana Padano. But Sardinian pecorino is way less salty, and Tuscan pecorino isn't salty at all. Nevertheless, I agree there are not that many recipes that pecorino is fit for - when heated, it's developing a flavour that doesn't go well with many, many dishes.

Well I have been asking for pecorino Romano all this time. Franco that is priceless information. No wonder I do not like it too much. I believe I can get the Sardinian type here in NYC..I will check soon.

Princess..if you let me know asap, I will bring you some good cheese. I am leaving Monday for Seoul and will be there through the end of next week. My cousin, who I will be visiting, has asked for New York pizza but I am not sure I can manage THAT in my bag! I will have loads of time to cruise around and eat because he will be working all day so I am on my own...

I am going to diverge a bit about the cheese to post this New York Times article, on a subject that has been divisive in my own house; there is a connection to Mario Batali and it concerns wines used in cooking:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/21/di...mp;oref=slogin

...and btw, ek, that truffled pecorino, was it soft or hard? Leaving aside the problem that 98 percent of truffled cheeses are definitely not excellent (since less truffles go in than truffle flavour, which is not too pleasant, to put it mildly)... but hard pecorino with truffles is not only a hard cheese but also a hard-to-find cheese! Once upon a time, in Umbria, I had found a marvellous example of this cheese (no longer available, UNFORTUNATELY), and used it for a pasta sauce that was so memorable that I'm dreaming of it till now, ten years or so later: a plain green tomato sauce (with excellent Umbrian olive oil, of course), and that truffled pecorino grated on top (on the plate, i.e. without heating it) - extraordinarily simple, and yet delicious.

Franco, last year the shop here in New York had 3 versions of the truffled pecorino. The hardest and most aged was by far the best and I bought it several times. This year they were not able to get that one. The shop owner told me that neither of the two he now stocked were close in quality to the hard one from last year. I bought one anyway and this is the cheese that is now sitting in my fridge where it has been for weeks! If I am not mistaken, it has the word "Boscolo" in the label...

Bookmarking so I can go sharpen my kitchen knives :D

Another truffled pecorino in the fridge person here! I bought a truffled pecorino at Costco, of all places and it was not very good. The truffle flavor was just to darn intense and took over everything that it was served on.

Bill

Yes, Bill, that's the truffle flavoring I was talking about...

ek, your wine-for-cooking link opens a can of worms... if I'm supposed to add my two cents, I think that article is very interesting, and has many points, but not all points. I agree that it is willful waste to use a great, expensive wine for cooking; but I'd go even farther and say it's counterproductive - you don't WANT the taste of a great wine in most meals! They're simply too strong, too powerful, they're preponderant, their flavour is sticking out and do harm to the balance of aromas; the part about the Barolo risotto in that article is a good example. There are exceptions, though: Risotto al Sagrantino is a delicacy, and there's hardly any wine as rich in tannin as a Sagrantino, that's on the up and up with a Barolo - so tannin is not the explanation, it depends on the taste of the specific tannin of a specific grape variety! There are soooo many different tanninic flavours...
On the other hand, I strongly disagree with the assumption that really bad wine is being improved in the pan. That's definitely not true IMO - bad flavour will always remain bad flavour. What I need for cooking (and I can tell you I'm always having a hard time when searching for a new one) is a good, decent, but rather boring wine with a not too distinct flavour and - and that's the most important thing - not too much acidity, especially if red wine is needed; acid red wine will spoil every dish.

Forgive me if this is off-topic, but I love the prosciutto ham in Italy. I could eat it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Nothing I've found in the States compares.

I read that Prosciutto di Parma is made from large locally raised pigs which are fed a strict diet that includes whey from locally made Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese.

I guess that explains the wonderful flavor of the prosciutto ham.
:)>-

Maureen, nothing is off topic when it comes to food! I have only recently been exploring the various cured hams of Italy and Spain...I have to say that for me, it is a close call between the great jamon Ibericos and prosciutto from Parma...I have also read that the Parma pigs feed on the local cheese..and many of the Spanish pigs feed at least partially on acorns.

Imagine the difference between what those pigs eat and what the pigs here in the US are fed. (Although there is actually a domestic US-made prosciutto that is getting excellent reports, from a company called La Quercia in Iowa):

http://www.laquercia.us/

And the salumi made by Mario Batali's father in Washington also gets good reviews...


On the cheese issue: The truffled cheese that still is in my fridge is this one; I see that this company sells many types of pecorino by mail so those with no access to good cheese might be interested:


http://www.forteto.it/shop/online/ar...ew.php?key=590

The third version stocked by, but not recommended by, my cheese man is called Boschetto; I have not tried it.

But I noticed that, while I have always bought the Pecorino Romano, sold here in NYC for $7.99 per pound, this same shop does sell quite a few Tuscan pecorinos as well as at least one Sicilian version; the prices are much higher for those; most are $12.00 per pound. Franco, I will be investigating the various possibilities once I return from my next trip...

Franco: You mentioned Sagrantino..would that be the wine from Montefalco? I have never tried that but will certainly put it on my (long) list of "to try" foods and drinks. It really is a bit difficult to understand how that bad wine from Trader Joe's could have contributed to a risotto of equal quality to the one made from Barolo... I must admit that tannic wines are not usually to my taste. That, combined with high prices for Barolo here in the US, has limited my experience...

MaureenB

On the Prosciutto di Parma topic...

The USA version that is allowed to be imported must be aged longer than the version you probably have in Italy - that makes is a bit drier and has a more aged taste.

You might want to try Prosciutto San Danielli if you can find it. My understanding is that those pigs are often fed chestnuts.

Check out http://www.prosciuttosandaniele.it/

I seem to now prefer Serano Hams from Spain, as they are creamier and taste closer to what you are describing.

Also I find that if I can go to a deli that is very very busy then they typically have Prosciutto that is much fresher compared to that found from an average meat market...

Dean & Deluca or any popular Italian Deli in some of the major cities works for me!

Costco around here has large packs of Prosciutto that is decent and tastes better than anything I get sliced locally. Part of this is due to it being packed correctly and not sitting in a meat case drying out I suspect.


Great article from the NYT that mirrors our experience with cooking and wine...

Hi ek,

I agree with Moskin. There is little, if anything, to be gained by cooking an expensive wine.

I find that it usually improves a cheap wine.

I take the phrase "Never cook with a wine you wouldn’t drink" to mean "don't use 'cooking wine' or wine that has turned".

((I))

Ira I would tend to agree. The trouble is that I have always relied on the under $12 bottles for cooking so I have no idea is my food would be improved with better wines! As I said, this issue has been one of contention here at the ekcrunchy homestead for a very long time...

Sorry my spelling is teriibllle today (as most days)

Jamon Serrano
San Daniele Prosciutto

Are the correct ways to spell...Sorry!

True, nothing food-related is off-topic here; in fact, one could almost say we have opened this thread in order to make being off-topic our topic... :)
On prosciutto, I might add that my favourite (though I agree that many prosciutto di Parma as well as Spanish hams are heavenly) is a prosciutto di Sauris (Sauris is a village in the Friuli region), and more precisely, the one sold at Casa del Parmigiano in Venice. Theirs, of course, is also the very best parmesan (Reggiano, no need to stress that). Details on Casa del Parmigiano are on "Franco's favourite Venetian food".

Yes, Sagrantino is the wine from Montefalco. Since this is one of the few food-related issues I don't like to discuss broadly in public, this may be a nice opportunity to remind of an almost forgotten thread for Umbria lovers: http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34792839
I don't know Trader Joe's wine (guess there's no need to feel sorry), but I actually can imagine that a risotto mad of cheap wine can equal a Barolo risotto - if the Barolo has too much acidity, the risotto is going to be a nightmare, no matter how much that wine cost.

I cook with good or decent bottles of wine. I can't begin to tell you how much it costs for me to make bouef bourgignon (the wine + the cognac!)--I know, I know, wrong thread.

As an avid drinker, though far from an expert, I need to have bottles on hand that I can enjoy in many ways. I am not sure I've noticed it making a big difference in Italian food, at least, but perhaps because the recipes I try are either not that sophisticated or not that boozy.

I'm enjoying this thread. Thanks to all you experts who contribute.

May I please apply for the (yet to be created) "Fodor's Typo of the Week Award" for my above "risotto MAD of cheap wine"?

ekscrunchy,

Last year when we were in Seattle we stopped by Salumi (Mario Batali's dad's place) and had a delicious lunch of sliced meats and salami, roasted meats, cheeses and bread. We ended up taking two big bags of food back home with us. Their salamis are very different than anything I've had before. The pancetta cured with cinnamon is my favorite thing that we bought from them. Highly recommended!

Bill

Since we are on a Prosciutto topic - how about any favorite recipes that use it?

Some of my favorites are italian based but certainly not directly from italy.

My favorite pizza is Tomato sauce & mozerella cheese as the base and then topped with chunks of goat cheese, torn pieces of San Daniele Prosciutto, and fresh slices of figs all cooked.

Also I enjoy wrapping prosciutto around a chunk of a hearty white fish filet, like monk fish or halibut, and then baking or broiling it. The salt from the ham flavors the fish nicely as it cooks.

I buy the ends of the leg of prosciutto, chop it up, and use it in a lot of pasta dishes. Now that spring is coming, I will use it with peas and spring onions. I don't cook much with the slices of ham...but the monkfish sounds excellent. I have just discovered the joys of monkfish and have made it a few times in the last month. (I would like to get my hands on Lidia Bastianich's monkfish with lemon brodetto recipe..not on the internet). Not only is it easy to work with but it is inexpensive!

I am thinking of making farro tomorrow so might use some chopped up prosciutto in that as well; I am undecided as to whether or not I want to add the meat component. The farro recipe is one I make often; it is from Mario Batali. I don't see why I could not add some prosciutto or guanciale. Last time I added porcini but did not like it as much as the original:

http://www.foodtv.biz/food/recipes/r..._27376,00.html

Bill, that pancetta sounds interesting. The Batali Dad has a great reputation here for his products but I don't even think they are available in the eastern US..

Wonder where he got the cinammon idea from..could that be Venetian?