Educating Rita...?
 

A great flick (by the way) but, I have another BIGGER problem. We are to spend 5-6 days in Paris and two days in Normandy (soon). Then we head (by train), for two days in Florence; one day in Pisa; and two to three days in Roma. My wife is really (NO, I MEAN REALLY) upset about having our children (ages 10 and 14) out of school for even that long. I keep telling her that, what they will learn there, will completely overshadow (if not overwhelm) ANYTHING they could EVER possibly learn in ANY school! But, it is NO USE! I had originally planned on three weeks minimum. She insists that we are back in two weeks MAXIMUM! She will not budge! But, Oh well. I guess it will be a lot for them to make up. They both are (and have been) straight 'A' students. Please help, be you for or against me (especially if you are grade school or middle school teachers)? Thanks a bunch, <BR> <BR>Mr. "C"

I agree, travel is a great education, but, as a retired teacher, I would have been pretty dismayed for the children to be taken out of school so early in the school year. I guess since you couldn't, or didn't, go during school recess, you are stuck. That is one nice thing about school scheduling now, so many are year around and have vacations for a bit in summer, fall and spring. I'd probably go along with two weeks, although, since you are already spending the money, another week can't make much difference...guess you could say I'm kinda wishy-washy about this.

Dave, <BR>To begin with, contact your youngsters' teachers and get their opinion; I feel sure those opinions will reinforce yours rather than your wife's. In the interim, up till the day you arrive in Paris, bone up on every bit of European history that you can. For the kids benefit, contrast the American Revolution with the French and the connsequences of both; the Roman and Napoleonic Empires and the results of their demise. Familiarize yourself with the Renaissance and the art, architecture and sculpture that eminated from it and similarly, the influence of the Church of Rome on the art of the mid 15th to mid 16th centuries. Show how the powerful influence of the Church was diminished by the Reformation and how that lessening of power resulted in a dramatic change in art subjects: from religious themes to secular and mythological ones. Get the kids to think about how the domes in Florence's Duomo and Rome's St. Peter's were constructed centuries ago; have them figure out why the walls of Paris' Notre Dame don't collapse from the weight of the roof. Make your journey one of enlightenment!

We took our kids out of school several times to take them to Europe and it never did them a scrap of harm.If they are clever they will soon make it up. <BR>I used to ask the teachers what was on the syllabus for the time we were away.Then my husband or I would go over it with them.Sometimes they had extra homework after we got back. <BR>The kids never minded the extra homework it was worth it to them in order to see Europe. <BR>I think it would be a crying shame to cut your holiday short.Once your wife is there she will change her mind in a hurry.She won't want to come home. <BR>The kids will learn about art,history and life first hand.Much more interesting than out of a text book.

Dave, <BR> <BR>Are your kids excited about going? Or are they just excited about getting out of school for two weeks? <BR> <BR>The plane trip over to Europe is quite a few hours. Ask your kid's teachers for their homework assignments in advance and have them do the homework on the plane and/or while you are in a car or on a train going between areas. This could at least give your wife a little peace of mind. <BR>Kittie <BR>(p.s. I wish my parents would have taken me to Europe when I was in school- I would have loved it and worked extra hard to make up the school work).

We took ours when they were 14 and 12. Didn't do a bit of harm. An idea: each child should keep his/her own daily diary which is to be handed in to their teachers upon their return. Why a full day in Pisa? After the Leaning Tower and the Baptistry -- they are within a stone's throw of each other -- there's not much else to see there. Use the extra time for Florence and/or Rome.

Have to disagree re Pisa, Al - I found the Cathedral itself of great interest, as well as the Camposanto and Cathedral Museum. Of my time in Pisa (day trip from Lucca) I probably spent the least amount of time viewing the Leaning Tower.

Dave: About 25 years ago, when our twin daughters were thirteen we had planned an extended trip. The thinking of our school system at that time was that travel was enlightening and educational. Our girls were also good students. They have turned out extremely well, very successful, happily married with children of their own. They relate stories of our trip to their kids. The bottom line is that what they encountered on our trip left a far greater impression on them than what they may have learned in school during that time. In the grand scheme of life your European vacation should be a great experience for them. Enjoy!! <BR>

Dave: After telling you of our personal experiences in the post above, keep in mind the old saying....If Momma ain't happy, ain't Nobody happy!!!! <BR>

Ok Dave, here's the deal. We live in Scotland for a 2 year stint. We only lived in our house in Phoenix for 9 months before we decided to uproot our kids yet again to come over here. (Our kids are a bit younger than yours - 6 and 8) Part of the reason we did this was for the incredible opportunity our kids would get to live and learn how others live. Sometimes our travels take us out of school for a bit. When the school gives us two days off in a week, we take the whole week. I wrote the headmaster of our school and explained our situation. He agreed with me and gave us permission to go providing that we get all the work the kids would miss and make it up. We also have the kids do their own diaries. The school gives them blank jotters and the kids fill them in with each day's activities. They glue in metro tickets, show tickets, entrance stubs, postcards, brochures, airplane tix etc., draw pictures and write about what they've seen. The finished product is an incredible reminder of a trip they took, the teachers all love them and make a huge fuss over them. In fact, their diaries often make it to the headmaster's desk for a look! <BR>Having said all that, I, too, am like your wife. I have adamantly refused to let the kids out of school in the past for any reason except death and disease, but there are always exceptions. Obviously, going during school isn't the greatest time either, but if the school lets you and you are willing to turn the trip into an educational one, I think you should go for it. Two weeks may be the most you can get away with, though. Train trips are ideal times to get the work done, by the way!

The teachers are the key. They need to reassure your wife about the tradeoff this trip represent. They should also provide the frame for the trip to truly be an educational experience by asking your kids to prepare a special project (presentation for the other kids, a scrap book of the trip for the library, show & tell items, etc...). My best friend takes her kids to Puerto Rico for Christmas every year and they come back after the 6 January because Epiphany is a big holiday in PR. The teachers are always so amazingly understanding.

For 5 years, starting when I was 12 and my brother was 9, my parents took us out of school for 3 weeks every year to explore Europe. The memories of those trips are still vivid to my brother and I, but more importantly, they instilled a love of travel in us. AND these early travels gave us confidence in our ability to go to unknown places, figure out how to cope with day-to-day logistics in those places, appreciate and enjoy other languages/cultures/cuisines, and do what we set out to accomplish. Truly life lessons which we certainly didn't realize we were getting, but are grateful for now. <BR> <BR>From the school perspective, my mother told our teachers that we would be out of school and suggested that each of us keep a journal, which would be graded, and give a presentation to the class. We also read books in preparation for the trip and wrote reviews/reports of the books based on our actual experience in that country. For math, each of set a budget beforehand, and tracked daily expenses, and at the end of the trip, prepared a summary showing x% on food, x% on souvenirs, etc. Not to mention the exposure to history, art, architecture, etc. - a good basis in European culture, even through osmosis, let alone trips to museums (not always popular with us, but a trade-off for "fun" activities). <BR> <BR>So, I say...take the kids for as long as you can. THey'll remember the trip forever, will be educated through exposure and won't miss that much in school (that they can't do beforehand or make up later.)

What I would have given in my schooling days to actually see the history which seemed so boring on paper, but now seems so alive to me. I think if I had been given the opportunity, then I would have listened more, understood more, wanted to learn more. For example, imagine what a brilliant report they can give on the Romans, after having done a tour of the colloseum, walked around the forum, or seen Pompeii. All I can say is that I think it would bring to life what on paper looks so far away. <BR>

Taking children out of school for such a long time may teach them a lot. Unfortunately it can be seen as a selfish act. <BR> <BR>Why should the other students in their classes and their teachers suffer for the sake of your two children? <BR> <BR>Teachers time is precious enough as it is. The extra time and effort needed to cater for children needing to catch up on their syllabus can be avoided by parents simply taking advantage of the normal school breaks rather than setting their own self centered agenda. <BR> <BR>

It is so nice to see so many people supportive of taking kids to Europe. We are now running into the same problem. After traveling for years with our children, suddenly my teenager doesn't want to go. The reason? If he misses 7 or more days in a quarter, his teachers have the option of lowering his grade by one whole grade! I was shocked to learn that, simply due to absence, my A student would be a B student. I personally think that this is a lawsuit waiting for a challenge. In the meantime, we've had to plan our next trip over spring break (yuk). And we're negotiating for an exemption, but we have to submit a travel curriculum! Can you imagine? Excuse me, but my kid flunks out of school because he's seeing the David in Florence, or studying Mayan archeology in Merida? An exaggeration, of course. <BR> <BR>Anyway, Dave, we took our three boys on a Paris to Nice to Florence to Orvieto to Rome trip in March. Tell you wife that, no matter how good the school, the travel education is superior.

<BR>Dear Dave, <BR> <BR>I would let the kids negotiate with Mom. Do not interfere with their "negotiations" or side with your kids. As stated by Julius, it is not worth the potential discord between you and your wife. The "negotiation with Mom will sharpen their persuasive powers, in relation to how much they really want to stay longer. It is a very useful skill to be equipped with in life. They will also learn that in real life, there are trade offs and consequences. <BR> <BR>If this is their first time to be in France and Italy, I agree with most that they will develop a better perspective of the real world and of different cultures (USA vs. Europe) that they will never learn in the classroom. While I have not visited these two countries yet, I just came back from England. Since I was young, I have been reading the literature, arts, history, folkore, customs, etc. of Great Britain; but, I was still amazed, how different Britain is from the US in many aspects -- mass transport, urban life and planning (no parking lot sprawls, no megamalls, multiple "activities" and use in one area not the sterile "homogeneous" zoning insisted here in the US, etc.), security, crime rate, entusiastic government support for the arts and culture, squares or gardens everywhere in the city where people can take a short respite from work to have lunch or just smell the air, etc. I felt so secure there that I could be out in a new place until about midnight without any fear of being mugged. [Of course, hand guns are banned in the UK.] Also, contrary to the stereotype, many of the Brits I talked to were "more friendly" than what we were led to believe in the US -- this is consistent with my experience with the English who I worked with (or met in conferences) here in the US. <BR> <BR>London, a metropolitan area of about 10 million, was very busy but it did not have the "gridlock" traffic that a city of the same size, or even smaller, in the US would normally experience -- to think that many of the streets are even almost the equivalent of a one-lane street in major cities in the US. In Cambridge, all college students are banned from using cars (they adjusted to using bikes) and car use are also very controlled in Cambridge proper -- partly to minimize the deleterious impact of pollution on the old buildings. Of course, the high cost of gasoline (you should point this out if you happen to see a gas station there) dissuades people in Europe to be so car addicted. There are so many luxuries that we take for granted here in the US -- low gasoline cost, price of car, many goods (including many food items), bathroom in every hotel room, etc. -- that are much higher or luxury in many European countries and other parts of the world. <BR> <BR>I am sure, that for your sons, France and Italy will reflect differences from that of the US as the UK has done for me. Experiencing these differences will affect their future perspective on issues, of their environment and society. Italy and France are among the "oldest" countries that are still very advance nations in the modern world. If they have ample time to soak in the local culture, if given enough time in one place, the experience will teach them something more practical and significant -- even if there is no formal "teaching" while there. Thus, European history, arts and literature will become more real to them and they may be more motivated to learn these subjects when they are in senior high school and in college. <BR> <BR>Personally, when travelling, I prefer extended stay in "one place" to have a better grasp of the "local flavor". Thus, while I went to London on 18 July and stayed there until 9 August, most of the time was spent in London -- with just one whole day each of side trips to Cambridge, Oxford and Windsor and another one day return trip to Cambridge. Even in London, I limited the number of places I visited so that I can spend as much time in certain museums (sometimes several days visit in one museum) and devote time to wander (get lost) in non-tourist spots, having "1-2 hour" lunch in neighborhood squares, read the local paper in the "community library", watch their local tv shows (including news), etc. <BR>

Please, please, please -- no formal lessons or assignments while on vacation or even on the plane (as suggested by some earlier posts), as part of the "trade off" with their Mom. Enjoying the vacation can make the mind more receptive to other more important lessons in life that could be learned just by being with other people of different cultures. Of course, it would help if you an the wife are "renaissance" individual -- your own enthusiasm about arts, literature, architecture and other cultural activities will be "infectious". <BR> <BR>Maybe you can even buy them French-English and Italian-English dictionaries (if they do not know already) and let them ask directions. Imagine if they get interested to learn foreign languages, as a result, when they come back. <BR> <BR>Also, give them some set money once (at the beginning of the trip) budget for souvenir and miscellaneous stuff. That will be their only allowance until the end of the trip and they have to decide when and what to use their allowance for. You will never influence each of them -- no "Is that what you really want to do, son?" lectures -- but you will not let your heart melt, if at the end of the trip, there is something they have got to buy but already spent all their "luxury allowance". <BR> <BR>All these will test both your values as parents as well as your skills as teachers -- they can be done without forcing anyone to learn. <BR>

I like the idea of have diary also (it will teach them to write their impressions of the world), if they want to do it. [Do not force them to make any diary entry each day, children have very good memories, they may even do most of the writing when they come back.] Let each of them have their own camera (even cheap ones) and each will take their own pictures of the trip. It would be interesting to find what interests a child and how he looks at the world. <BR> <BR>I would be interested to include their diaries (with pictures and mementos like tickets, etc.) in a travel webpage (or they can create their own, if they want). I am interested to create a webpage with lots of "links" that will be educational for myself mainly but also for the visitor. <BR> <BR>An example is this paragraph that I intend to include in my "London diary" webpage: <BR><P>&lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/index.htm"&gt;Today's Royal Family&lt;/a&gt; <BR><BR>&lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/hmqueen.htm"&gt;Queen Elizabeth II&lt;/a&gt; <BR><BR>&lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/wales.htm"&gt;The Prince of Wales&lt;/a&gt; (and his &lt;a href="http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/"&gt;website&lt;/a&gt;: Prince Charles is an avid "organic farmer" and actively involved in &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/wales.htm#ACTIVITIES"&gt;public activities&lt;/a&gt;, including architectural preservation); after Prince Charles, the next in line is &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/wales.htm#WILLIAM"&gt;Prince William&lt;/a&gt; -- for all his fans shown in enlarged pictures during Thanksgiving Service for The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh's &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/william.htm"&gt;Golden Wedding&lt;/a&gt; and while &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/skiing.htm"&gt;skiing&lt;/a&gt; in Whistler, Canada, March 1998. Prince William's good looks is not surprising considering her very beautiful mother &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/main/diana1.htm"&gt;Princes Diana&lt;/a&gt; shown in another picture &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana12.htm"&gt;smiling radiantly&lt;/a&gt;. More pictures of Princes Diana as &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana5.htm"&gt;Lady Spencer&lt;/a&gt; before she married, the young &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana13.htm"&gt;bride&lt;/a&gt;, as a young mother of &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana6.htm"&gt;two boys&lt;/a&gt;, shown as a very protective mother of &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana18.htm"&gt;two growing boys&lt;/a&gt;, shown also as the &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana20.htm"&gt;Princess of the World&lt;/a&gt;, who fostered many causes including the &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana21.htm"&gt;plight of children&lt;/a&gt;, international causes like helping land mine victims and ban of the manufacture and use of &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/images2/family/diana7.htm"&gt;land mines&lt;/a&gt;. The "&lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/diana.htm"&gt;Princess of the masses&lt;/a&gt;" died tragically on 31 August 1997; commerated in her &lt;a href="http://www.royal.gov.uk/start.htm"&gt;official website&lt;/a&gt; and a &lt;a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/diana_one_year_on/default.stm"&gt;BBC webpage&lt;/a&gt; recording the international outpouring of grief following her death. <BR> <BR> <BR>In another section, I have these bits of raw information that I plan to incorporate as text in specific sections when I mention my trips to Windsor Castle, Tower of London, etc. in my London diary. <BR> <BR><P>&lt;FONT COLOR="#0000FF"&gt;&lt;B&gt;History and Historical maps:</B>&lt;/FONT&gt; <BR><P>UPenn (USA) 18th to 19th century &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/london.html"&gt;&lt;B&gt;Historic maps of London</B>&lt;/a&gt; and some places in Great Britain -- provides brief historical text for &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/london.html"&gt;London&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/england.html"&gt;England&lt;/a&gt; and historically famous UK cities &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/cam.html"&gt;Cambridge&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/oxford.html"&gt;Oxford&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Places/windsor.html"&gt;Windsor&lt;/a&gt;, etc. <BR><P>The modern-day tourist may want to compare for example the mid 19th Century &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Gifs/windsor2.html"&gt;Windsor Castle&lt;/a&gt; or the &lt;a href="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankDemo/Gifs/lontow.html"&gt;Tower of London&lt;/a&gt; and the current structures of these landmarks to appreciate better their historical role in the British empire. <BR> <BR>[Unfortunately, the Fodor forum does not convert the "html text" above to a "normal text" with links -- the above paragraphs will be only a few lines but very rich in information that will lead to other links that the reader can explore further.] <BR> <BR>Imagine, if they will be able to do something like that in their own webpage detailing their trip to France and Italy -- that will teach them new computer skills as well as open new innovative ways to learn history, art, literature, etc. As a result, they may have a better appreciation of Notre Dame, the French Revolution, etc. in the eyes of Victor Hugo and other famous Frenchmen. Through the excesses of the French Revolution, they may learn to appreciate that it is not enough to know what you do not want but also to know what to do when you destroyed what you do not like. The rampage after the French Revolution has similarities to the current economic and political disarray (in Russia, Yoguslavia, etc.) after the fall of the "Eastern Bloc" culminating in the tearing down of the "Berlin Wall". France survived the French revolution. Thus, while it may look bleak now who knows what Russia or Eastern Europe will be a century from now. <BR> <BR>They may appreciate in Rome how the Roman papacy greatly influenced the fate of the world. Henry VIII may never have established the Anglican Church. Mary Queen of Scots may not have been executed and we would not have known Queen Elizabeth I. Even Mary Queen of Scots, might not have been a queen, if only the first wife of Henry VIII bore him a son. Of course, if some earlier English kings were not killed in battles during the "holy war" crusades to retake Jerusalem then we would not had Henry VIII to begin with. <BR> <BR>Academic exercise on possibilities -- how a single person or how accidents beyond our control can influence the world. The individual matters, chance matters. <BR> <BR>If they can have this underst

[sorry, the last was truncated...] <BR> <BR>If they can have this understanding of history and appreciation of other disciplines (arts, literature, music, etc.), they will become true "renaissance boys" in the age of specialization. Also, if they are interesting writers, they will be able to educate others too who will visit their webpages. <BR> <BR> <BR>Anyway, just some ideas. Learning does not have to be "painful". <BR> <BR> <BR>CGC -- 990824

Dump the wife and take the kids. Just joking. When my son was young we took him out of school on several occasions but only with the approval of his teachers and with all of the homework he would have missed. On some trips, with the help of adults setting near him he would have all of his work completed before landing. <BR>

I very much agree that most school work can be easily made up, and at some grade levels a European trip would dovetail nicely with the curriculum. In my district, as I'm sure in many others, planning a "Europe trip" is a huge project at the junior high level, incorporating social studies, math and language arts. So how much better to actually be DOING the trip. <BR> <BR>One thing that no one's mentioned, though, is how extended absences might interfere with a child's social relations with friends at school. When my older daughter was in third grade, we took a trip to England that involved her missing about three days of school. In that time, the other girls had formed a "club," and she had to perform certain feats if she wanted to be admitted. They kept piling on new requirements, and I'm not sure she EVER managed to be a full club member that year! <BR> <BR>While I am in no way suggesting that this experience did her any permanent harm--she is today a very well-adjusted sophomore in college with lots of friends and an abiding interest in the world--it IS true that she still talks about it. So maybe if your children are starting at a new school this year, THEY might have opinions about missing a big chunk of time right at the beginning.

Last year in October, we took our two kids (a 6th grader and an 8th grader about to graduate middle school) with us to Rome and stayed in the now forum-famous Dr. Abate's rental- a 17th century merchants palazzo. My daughters 6th grade core instructor understood and asked that my daughter keep a diary and turn it in for credit. Photos, etc. My daughter is an A student who does math at the high school level. No problem. My son, a b-student except for his struggle with math was allowed to go but had to take with him all of his school books and had the daily assignments written out for him to do as many as he could ahead of time and then we Xeroxed the literature and took half or so with us. He studied daily (with jet lag it was no problem). He turned out to be my husbands nightly hiking companion...taking moonlight photos of all the monuments and walking all over Rome from end to end, even after the girls were tuckered out. On his return stateside, he still barely passes math, even after completing his assignments but with much pressure from both parents, he graduated. He will, however, have the trip to Rome forever. And the deside to travel is implanted.....Both kids want us to take them to France or to see the pyramids.....The answer is to work with the school and take the kids. Depending on what their grades are like, going down a grade is no big deal in early years....I wouldn't say that in High School. They will learn much more about life than any schoolmaster could possibly jealously begrudge. Oh yeah....my daughter only got lost at LAX but we found her! (She was behind another blonde lady with a samsonite.....)

Basing my response solely on your email address, which may very well be made-up (like mine), I would guess you are a highly educated person with a good job in the sciences at a college or university. You and your wife sound like conscientious parents. Your kids are straight A students. Whatever you are doing is working so far and will continue to work no matter how you spend your vacation. But, to go against the grain of this thread a little, I have to say: why take your kids out of any time at school if it's not necessary? If you can work out your vacation time (looks like you might be a professor, thus have real flexibility and a school-oriented schedule to begin with) and the finances (I realize these places will cost less in off-peak season), why not let your kids get a complete school education, teach them the importance of fulfilling commitments/obligations, AND expose them to the wonders of travel, during their vacation time when their schoolwork won't be disrupted? I fully agree that if you have to take them out of school to show them Europe you should, but if it's at all possible not to, then why? I'm worried that if you turn the trip into Europe 101 they could be turned off, and if you just have fun they'll get the message that school is not so important, and that it's okay to skip it now and again for a change of scenery.

Just a (hopefully brief) blurb about OBLIGATION. I didn't mention it earlier in the interest of brevity but it really applies her, I think. My daughter, the 6th grader, new to middle school joined and was accepted in the A-Guard (experienced) Color Guard that marches with the school band. Ours is a small town and the band here wins top honors all the time in Parades. It is veryimportant to the school and to the town. Because we were planning on the trip to Rome, I ame it contingent upon the band instructor's approval that my daughter could miss several key practice sessions after she had just learned the routine. He said OK but was a bit tense about it. My daughter practiced over and over in the lining room of that Palazzo with an umbrella as her "flag" and pillows tossed as though they were her saber. When she returned to our dinky town, she knew her routine better than some of thekids along side her in the parades. The instructor was thrilled! Kinda makes me weepy. If your kids have drive and gumption....take them with you....you can have your pie and eat it too. Dont feel guilty. Bring your kids up to lead and not follow all the time. -Cher

I'm a high school teacher and I say take the kids for the 3 weeks! (that's only 15 school days) Talk to the teachers well ahead of time. Bring homework, books and have them work on it during "down time" -- like on the plane. <BR> <BR>I had a student this year who went to Russia for 3 weeks. He met with me during an activity period for several weeks prior to his trip and when he returned. He made up all the work and had a wonderful experience as well. <BR> <BR>This will be a family experience your children will never forget. <BR> <BR>Let us know what happens!

Okay, I'll be direct and to the point. I'm not a teacher, and I'm not a parent. Your time on this earth is too short and too precious to worry about classmates and teachers suffering because of your kids being out of school. Three weeks out of sixteen plus years of education is NOTHING to worry about. Get a handle on the BIGGER picture. Leave your wife at home if she is going to be a poopy companion.

I wouldn't be on this forum if I didn't think travel was wonderful, important, educational, etc. But just for the sake of a little balance, let me make this observation: <BR> <BR>I think you all should take the trip, definitely. BUT -- the fact that your wife is raising the question as seriously as she is will send an important signal to the kids, that school is important and being there when you are supposed to be is also important. <BR> <BR>I really hope you will be able to keep the argument away from school VERSUS travel. They are both great, but school is their "job" at this point in their life, and travel that interrupts it should be infrequent and VERY special. -- Which this trip sounds like it will be. <BR> <BR>When I was 13, my father was diagnosed with a fatal illness, and he decided to pull the entire family out of school for 2 weeks to travel to Central America (a dream of his). Those of us old enough to have homework brought a few assignments along, but we weren't a traveling school by any means. It really was a trip of a life-time, literally for my father. It was clear that he valued school education and it was clear that he valued travel experience. <BR> <BR>Nowadays, everyone seems to have a lot of money to travel, and it seems to me a lot of my children's wealthier friends routinely miss a couple of weeks of school to ski or beach or whatever each year. This can send a terrible message to them about the value of school, and schools nowadays have so many strikes against them that education seems to have about the last place in everyone's mind. <BR> <BR>I'm NOT saying you don't learn a lot traveling as a kid. I think the broadened horizons and cross-cultural experiences are invaluable. But I think you should support your wife's perspect NOT by cancelling the trip but by saying, "your mom is right that school is very important. We're going on the trip, but we BOTH think school is important and not something you opt out of, just because something fun comes along." <BR>

Anne, I appreciated your reply. Would you scroll up to see my earlier post, and tell me what you think of a school that drops kids one full grade for more than 7 absences in a quarter, even if they are on an educational trip? What is your school's policy? Thanks.

I won't jump in again unless asked but one other thing came to mind on this very important topic. When my daughter first began in middle school, they put her in the GATE program (honors). Hre core instructor asked the students if anyone had been anywhere recently and if they would like to give their new classmates a report on their recent travels. (Terrific teacher...) My daughter spoke on Washington DC for over a hlaf hour. The teacher went scurrying around the campus pulling other instructors over to hear what my daughter was saying about what is out each side window of the Washington Monument, what's going on at Georgetown University, the Pentagon, etc. I wasn't aware she had soaked up all that we were saying. The learning is going on during our travels without us all making it sould like a university on wheels. Ditto for our trip with them abroad...my son still corrects me when I describe the "draped" effect of the marble on the Vatican tomb of one of the Popes. (My son, fortunately, remembers whose tomb is was..... and the important artist who exectued this technique to perfection) -Cher

AJ -- I teach in a small (750 kids K-12) district in upstate NY. We have no attendance policy per se. It seems pretty harsh to me that your district's policy is so cut and dry. It's one thing being on an educational/cultural trip with parents and keeping up with schoolwork -- as opposed to the kid who stays home day after day to watch Jerry Springer and other mindless junk. Do both cases receive the same penalty? <BR> <BR>I think the key to this dilemma is enlisting the support of the teachers ahead of time.

Exactly how do you suppose a school district could implement rules that have exceptions (e.g. 7 absences are o.k. for a trip to Europe but not for a trip to Disneyworld or to visit an ailing relative, etc.)? Seems to me that implementation of that type of policy would open a can of worms, therefore, there is a strict absence policy. Personally, I believe travel is a wonderful experience, however, you have the entire summer break, not to mention spring break, Christmas break, etc. to travel. Why risk teaching your children that school is not that important when you could travel at other times of the year and not take them out of school?

Thank you all so much for all your help and support. My 14 year old daughters "Back to School Night" was last night, and most of her teachers were very positive about it. Two of her (seven) teachers have been to, lived in, or went to school in, France. Only her French teacher was VERY positive (as he has been for the last year and eight months). Most declined to let her do a report/diary of our trip for credit/extra credit, and said only that, "...she will have to make it up and/or take it with her." {GULP} Some were just outright (and some openly admitted it)...jelous! "My 10 year old son's "Back to School Night" is tonight and I am hoping for more luck with the report/diary. <BR> <BR> <BR>Thanks again (and keep 'em coming), <BR>Mr. "C"

Some of you have already helped me A LOT in the past, know me, and have already recieved the following e-mail. I post it here for 'Rachel' and for whomever 'Just my two cents', is (that posted above). I do, still, respect your opinions...but, maybe this will shed some light on your misconception(s):: <BR> <BR> <BR>My family and I (the four of us--total) are traveling to the Paris/Normandy area of France for @ one week and then heading to Florence and Rome, for a week, by train. We will be flying <BR>'standby' (which REALLY complicates things/planning) at the end of (this) summer/early fall, 1999. I traded <BR>my motorcycle for the airline tickets. The reasons we are going on this trip, are very special to me. {We are <BR>far from wealthy. I work in a machine shop.} <BR> <BR> My father landed on Utah Beach on D-Day, and he so much wanted to go back and see, "...a beautiful and <BR>free Europe, as it MUST have been before the war," he said. He could never <BR>afford it. He provided for his wife and five children. He was an unselfish and caring Father. He has passed <BR>away now (7 years ago). I always wanted to take him, to be with him, to hear his memories. I could not seem to afford it either. Now, I will go and be his eyes. I know he will be with me...always. <BR> <BR>Also, my daughter is in her third year of French, has won "Best Foreign Language Student Awards" in her school, and is an excellant student. It is to reward her, too. A (Fodors Travel Forum--website) 'poster' recently <BR>told me, "...you cannot go to Paris without eating and sleeping in reputable, classy places! You will miss the whole point!" My reply was, "Sir, I will be fine...and happy! I go for my Father and for my children (and their educations and dreams). That is all I need! Even if I have to sleep on park benches, it will be O.K.. <BR> <BR>Sincerely, <BR>Mr. "C" <BR> <BR>P.S. I have been working two jobs/15 hours a day, since July, to help pay for this (costly) trip. My dream <BR>is about to come true and I am Very tired but, I am happy. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Dave- <BR>First: I hope you have a *fabulous* trip. <BR>Second: I'm sorry that the assumptions people made put you in the position of feeling you needed to post as you did. It made me stop and think about the times I have done the same. <BR>Godspeed! <BR>Sally

Thanks Sally, <BR> <BR>Your a sweetheart. I just wanted people to know that that is why we have to go in the off season. With standby airfare, you don't just get on a plane when everyone else does. That is the other reason I needed three weeks for Europe...we can/could/probably will get 'bumped' for several hours, if not days. Especially when trying to leave Rome, I am told. <BR> <BR>Mr. "C"

Have a great trip. I always feel(along with Rick Steves) that it is a lot more fun to stay in inexpensive places as most Europeans do.You will learn more about the country and be closer to the culture. My children, now in their twenties, and I regret that we didn't go to Europe when they were teens. They always seemed so busy with band, sports, etc.Now we wish we had traveled more when they were teens. By the way I am a teacher,too.

I too feel bad if my post or anyone else's made you feel compelled to share anything you would rather have kept private. That is the problem with these "conversations"-it's hard to know the big picture and sometimes an aspect of the issue seems relevant, when in reality it's not. Like some of the other posters, I think school is a kid's job and attendance should be taken seriously (although I never said anything about it being a burden on the teacher or other kids if a child misses school-I think Distaff said it best). However, as I posted before, I fully support taking a child out of school to travel if that's the only way it can be done. And I would say, if it's not annoying for her, your daughter should still make up one of those diaries regardless of what her (apparently narrow-minded) teachers say! It sounds like a wonderful souvenir as well as a way to focus on what she's seeing and learning (don't know why a teacher wouldn't want to encourage such a thing). I'd bet anything she'll treasure it when she's your age.

Dave, I am truly humbled by your dedication to provide this trip for your family. I, too, was a 3 year French student 30 years ago. My dream was to be a foreign exchange student because I knew my family could never afford a vacation to France with 7 children!! That dream did not materialize and I did not make it to France until I was 37 years old!! I vote along with the other people that say talk to the teachers and your wife to make the trip an unforgetable experience. It is profoundly moving to me that you are also paying homage to your father's memory. What could be more rewarding to your children's education than to show them where their grandfather fought during WWII? I guarantee it will be an experience they will carry with them all their lives. I hope you have a wonderful trip.

You go Dave! My oldest niece got to go to London, Amsterdam, and Paris for 3 weeks with her wealthy grandmother at the age of 11. The other niece went 2 years later to Italy for 3 weeks. Both girls were given their school work to complete before they ever left. You better believe they had it done! They didn't miss a thing by being gone. The fact that you are working hard for this trip is a very valuable lesson for your kids as it is. That we can obtain our goals with hard work and dedication. Go and have a great time. Perhaps your wife is overly concerned about the uncertaintly of straying from routine. i'm sure she will learn some things from your trip too. Have a wonderful time, you'll never forget it and you deserve it.

Dear Mr. C: <BR>Your Post brought tears to my eyes. My kids always get on my case whenever something touches me that way. (I get smarmy at the thought of the Firefall!) But really moving is the way we all feel that what really matters in life is the way in which we all share and create memories between generations. Thats what its really about...sharing what we see with our kids...not just being there. (Being There...Peter Sellers, right?) Have a great trip. -The Other Mr & Mrs. C