Dutch Government to Ban Foreigners from Coffeeshops!
 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...74Q64420110527

Hi times for foreigners in Holland to end - to go up in smoke so to speak?

Hans say it ain't true. Will tourism in places like Amsterdamned suffer or prosper because of this earth-shaking change in policy.

and how will other EU residents react to blatant discrimination. Will the English ban all Dutch from its pubs?

Will French ban Dutch from its boulangeries?

Will Italian glaces and cappuccinos not be sold to the Dutch?

Will the policy be enforced - indeed will tourists so inclined still be able to buy pot safely in Amsterdamned and other places or will it revert to seedy and shady street dealing like before the coffeeshop era started with the original Bulldog, Ruslands and Mellow Yellow amongst other pioneers started this quasi-legal activity?

Oh well the Dutch are becoming less of their ballyhooed tolerant in not only this way but so many others - will they follow French lead in banning certain atttire they feel attacks the Dutcfh way of life?

Well anyway a pox on the Dutch and their increasing conservatism - I guess the French have won out in dictating Dutch domestic policy.

I for one however fully expect to be able to score great weed in Haarlem next winter!

Drug-addled tourists are one thing that just about any country can easily do without. I'm sure the Netherlands will still attract tourists who don't need drugs to enjoy themselves.

Does anyone remotely suspect that the number of people who LIVE in Amsterdam just might outnumber the "foreign" visitors who are buying the goodies?

Now, what is to be done about the other "drug-addled" folks right here in the US..addled from that drug more commonly known as alcohol; or perhaps those "addled" people who haven't had their fix of the drug caffeine in the morning and are using it as an excuse for not being able to work yet?

But as one who has traveled to Amsterdam for years - not just because of coffeeshops though that was a pleasant and unique aspect you would be very surprised by well-heeled American tourists at least who did come to Amsterdam mainly because of the cofffeeshops - yes there were too many European youths from like France and Germany who come and sleep in their cars, etc and this type they do not want - ditto for what the Mayor of Amsterdam said recently about his decisions to largely abolish Amsterdamned's legendary red-light district, which has been in the old Sailors' Quarter since probably when the town itself was founded - he said he did not want British lager louts or those on hen and peck parties there - he wants to upscale the red-light district into like most canals host - fancy boutique hotels or plush offices.

Amsterdam is radically changing its image and if that's what they want, of corse... but be careful what they wish for IMO.

Now it will be ironic that anyone in Michigan who wants to go into a shop and buy legal cannabis from a menu with lots of varieties will be able to do it quite easily but in Amsterdam they will not be able to - wow who would have thunk that just a few years ago!

The Dutch should take a lesson from the Americans - sending drugs underground does not decrease use and it certainly does not decrease crime and other social problems.

I don't think you will find some weed next winter. Even A'dam said they will just wait thru summer as some sort of grace period.

A similar stunt in Belgium had been approved by the European Court of Justice, as soft drugs are not legal in either NL or BE but simply tolerated. Thus, the rest of the EU citizens cannot claim discrimination as it is not a legal good or service.

While the good law-abiding citizens may applaude the Dutch on their way to sanitize the country of all evil, one must not forget that this comes from a nutty right-wind extremist who became the tip on the (political) scale in NL.

The drug issue is just the tip of the iceberg.. probably not the most important.. but you should be aware of whose politics you are praising.

Thus, the rest of the EU citizens cannot claim discrimination as it is not a legal good or service>


So the Dutch can ban foreigners from illegal activities but allow their own citizens to break EU law - that my friend seems fraught with lots of implications for any ole EU country to do similar shananigans to skirt laws they do not like - maybe the Brits will start selling fish and chips in newspaper cones again, against I believe EU dictum.

Well, that's the way it is. Drug laws are not EU laws.

If you need guidance where to light up in peace:
http://www.webehigh.com/city/detail.php?CITYID=16

That article is a bit outdated, though. Berlin has raised the amount of "personal use" that cannot be penalized from 10 to 15 grams last year. Prosecution is outlawed by state law. Don't ever sell, though.
And other states have tighter laws, so don't light up in Bavaria. Their state-sponsored drug is beer.

Well said Durkey1, some people too blindly believe that illegality = life destorying awfulness .. I'm more of a drinker myself and will readily admit that alcohol is a bigger bane.

Spain and Portugal I believe have legaqlized cannabis to a certain amount - Portugal may have legalized all drugs and not just pot for personal use in limited supplies.

I'm pretty sure the average tourist will still be able to score in Amsterdam. It's the small towns in the south of the Netherlands that have many problems with drugs-tourism for which the new system is supposed to be a solution. Drugs-runners, addicts, petty-crime for money... that's the kind of thing these new laws are supposed to (somewhat) stop.

I've never understood why anyone would come all the way to Amsterdam just because of the coffeeshops though.

<i>I've never understood why anyone would come all the way to Amsterdam just because of the coffee shops though.</i>

<b>No one</b> flies across the Atlantic to Amsterdam "just because" of the coffee shops any more than anyone flies from the US to Naples "just because" of the pizza.

If you happen to be there anyway, however, you may want to go on and try a slice...

Hey Du,

It is so amusing to listen to those who try to rationalize a drug habit. :)
...............................................
Hey B,

>No one flies across the Atlantic to Amsterdam "just because" of the coffee shops ....

I'm not so sure of that. Over the years, I've known many a young person who said he/she was going to visit Europe and never left A'dam. :)
.................................................
>....decisions to largely abolish Amsterdamned's legendary red-light district, .....<

Now <i>that</i> is serious.

It should be brought before the EC.

((I))

Hey Du,

It is so amusing to listen to those who try to rationalize a drug habit.>

yup say that to your boozing friends - pot in so many ways is less debilitating and medically harmful than pot - to make such a statement just tells me you are reacting to some knee-jerk idea of pot being addictive - unlike booze and nicotine for instance. Sheer ignorance IMO - oh well have another drink bub!

Drinking alcohol is a bad habit. So is puffing tobacco or marijuana cigarettes. In my experience, people who use drugs regularly have issues, so I prefer to avoid them. It would seem that the Netherlands would prefer to avoid them, also.

When we were in Amsterdam, I enjoyed the signs on cafe and restaurant terraces that said "No Drugs" - meanwhile 75% of the people sitting there are drinking some sort of alcoholic beverage and smoking a cigarette. Yeah, no drugs though ;)

It amuses me that a coffee shop isn't for coffee. So to get coffee you go somewhere else. Anyway we once had a tour of Christiania in Copenhagen where at the time drugs were sold in the open, hash on Pusherstreet stalls. Has that been closed down?

Bill in Boston

The reason for this change has nothing to do with Amsterdam or American tourists.
It has everything to do with the French, Belgian, German and other European youths who travel to the coffeeshops in the border towns, get high and cause massive problems - like driving whilst stoned.
They are the reason coffeeshops will only be allowed to sell to Dutch citizens. Non Dutch residents will also be excluded.

If other countries had followed the Dutch example then there wouldn't be the problems there are.

Ozarksbill - hard to tell about Christiana - the whole thing was decided to be done away with last I knew - government reclaiming their land - leaving some residents with their own property.

and in Amsterdam to get a coffee go to a koffieshop - not a coffeeshop!

and IMO it is sad when France dictates Dutch domestic policy

Ditto november_moon and hetismij.

I love Holland. I don't do weed. The Dutch had done the rational thing with mary jane, legalized it. Forcing it into the back alleys again will have the same effect as Prohibition had in the US. It just makes criminals out of half of the population and gives rise to the murdering gangs who supply the stuff. Stupid stupid stupid.

France and Germany should legalize pot and cure their own problem, not bully Holland to try to do it for them. It won't work anyway and will just drain the law enforcement capabilities of the Dutch. For example, we have a massive and growing gang problem at the Mexican/USA border which puts local citizens at risk for their lives. Don't the politicians read the newspapers?

Beer and wine have been accepted for millennia. Even Jesus made wine. If you don't like alcohol don't drink it. Don't try that Prohibition thing again.

ive been going to dam for years just for the coffe shops no point going there other wise just aswell go to pourtigal you can score weed and the weather and beaches ar much better hope this dosent happen or the dutch dont enforce the law

@spaarne: "It just makes criminals out of half of the population and gives rise to the murdering gangs who supply the stuff.". I guess that would be your half? :-D (just kidding).

I live in a vinex location where for some years a coffeeshop was located, just a couple of streets away. We've seen a significant increase in burglary, car theft and small crime during that time. Not to mention the number of half-stoned noisy "kids" (most of them are less than 18 years old!) that seemed to have taken over the parks and generally where misbehaving in spots where little children would've liked to play.

The coffeeshop has closed almost two years ago now and crime rates in the neighborhood have dropped significantly since then. Those pesky 18-year olds on their scooters are no longer hanging around here and kids can once again enjoy the playgrounds.

"The rational thing"? No, it was a typical Dutch solution to a problem: "we don't legalize it, but we tolerate it because we're too afraid someone might not like us if we don't".

Actually, the problem with NL's neighbors has little to do with the old-fashioned coffee shops in Amsterdam and the occasional twen traveling from Paris or Berlin to A'dam to smoke some dope around Leidseplein.

The real problem are the coffee shops right after the border, where Dutch communities like small town Venlo actually supported the of "McDope" coffee shops with easily parking lots and in 10 min walking distance to next train station in Germany. The dope cafes in Venlo alone were expected to generate 23 million euro revenues p.a., and the respective tax income for the local community.

Yet, it would be too easy to blame the border communities, as the establishment of border coffee shops was their (probably only) way to cope with massive traffic problems and far more drug consumption in the town centers as in comparable small towns further away from the border.


Maybe we should take the Dutch system as an example and limit access to Oktoberfest or beer gardens to those with residence in Bavaria.
But the people down here are probably not uptight enough to be such spoil sports, and gladly take the thousands of gallons of beer our American friends dump either way each night on the sidewalks and gardens in return for a little money (or, in fact, a lot of money).

Maybe people should just stop doing drugs, and find other ways to deal with their psychological problems. But I suppose that isn't likely to happen any time soon; there will always be a minority of the population that is addicted to something.

I would say that the majority of the population is addicted to something - either nicotine or tranquilizers, big macs or booze, dope or ecstasy.
Some addictions are just easier to hide, or are more accepted, or come with a prescription.
Personally, I find enough pleasure in what is legal and does not need a trip to the pharmacy. The three joints I smoked in my life were less than impressive to make a habit.

The studies I've seen indicate that only about 10% of the population has a permanent problem with addiction. This minority will always be addicted to something: if it's not drugs, it's religion, or sports, or TV, or Facebook, or whatever, but it's always something.

The rest of the population does not have addictive personalities, so they can take or leave these things.

Some people smoke a cigarette once a month or so, and can easily stop entirely if they so desire or if it becomes necessary. Others can't go for more than an hour without a cigarette; they are addicted.

It's the ones who are addicted who cause all the trouble. Addicts tend to be losers in more ways than one, so I can sympathize with people in the Netherlands who would like to be rid of them.

I find it really funny there are so many people on here referring to pot smokers as "addicts." Like it's any different than drinking wine in Italy. Come on people.

Drinking wine regularly can be an addiction, too. Using drugs on a regular basis is usually a bad sign, no matter what type of drug is involved (pot, alcohol, tobacco).

One difference, though, is that people who use drugs illegally demonstrate their disdain for the law, and this disdain often extends into other domains, so dopers who use illegal drugs are often marginal in their honesty and willingness to abide by the law in a general sense. This also applies (to a slightly lesser extent) to people who are so addicted to alcohol or tobacco that they will use it even when it is illegal (open containers, no-smoking areas, etc.).

Such a santimonious fellow this Anthony - I have smoked pot all my adult life and will put my law-abiding in other realms up to yours - indeed I believe I probably respect the law more than you as I have never willingly broken any law.

Did you have a grandparent who drank during Prohibition - would you say the same of them?

anyway your extrapolations about pot smokers and law braking just defies reality - well I guess everyone cannot be the perfect person you are - yup they did indeed break the mold when they made you, thank God!

Where do you live? Marijuana is illegal in many jurisdictions (possession and/or use and/or dealing), so unless it's entirely legal where you live, you've already willingly broken the law.

None of my grandparents drank alcohol (the family in general is non-drinking), so Prohibition was never a problem.

I don't worry about criticism from drug users. At the end of the day, they are the ones who are slaves to substance abuse, not me. I have enough problems to worry about without being unable to get through the day without drugs.

I've always considered the large amount of alleged drug use in Amsterdam to be one good reason <i>not</i> to visit the city. Perhaps if the number of drug-using tourists declines, greater numbers of drug-free tourists will replace them.

I find the number of people either addicted or very liberal in their use of pharmaceuticals more frightening than the occasional pot user (emphasis on "occasional"!).
When I first got to Fodors I was quite stunned that potent benzodiazepines are seen as something as normal as aspirin for enduring transatlantic flights et al.
Even more astonishing has been to see those pill-popping mommies worry about their 16yo "kids" being served wine in Italy.
If I lived in a society that has a massive problem with prescription drugs (i.e. not illegal drug use, thanks to helpful doctors), I would get my priorities straight and not worry about the two handful of people who go to AMS to smoke a joint.

The guy who grew more marijuana and distilled more whiskey

Than ANYONE else B4 the revolutionary war in the US

currently has his picture on Our $1 bill

he said he just grew it for hemp and like Clinton never inhaled.

Amsterdam has been going downhill ever since eaglebill.com passed on.

The latest news from Holland, for those of you who are interested, is that the law restricting drug-use to dutch citizens only, has been accepted by the dutch government last May. Right now there are a couple of lawsuits from coffeshops against the government, that will decide whether or not this change in law excluding non-Dutch is actually tenable. verdicts are expected somewhere in July/August.

One difference, though, is that people who use drugs illegally demonstrate their disdain for the law, and this disdain often extends into other domains, so dopers who use illegal drugs are often marginal in their honesty and willingness to abide by the law in a general sense>

Well I guess you would say the same about say Rosa Parks? And the founding Fathers - George W, Jeff, Franklin, etc who blatantly showed their disdain for the law of the land of the time by none the less that being traitors, etc.

Well add me to the likes of Rosa Parks, the Founding Fathers, etc all of whom you obviously would find to be less law-abiding than thou.

Well you certainly would have made a great Nazi.

Seig Heil Anthony and you condemnation of one just because they chose to violated a law they simply seem unjust.

If Anthony and his ilk had their way we would still be British subjects and Black Americans would still be riding at the back of the bus!

I'm afraid I can't quite put the abusers of illegal drugs in the same category as Rosa Parks or the Founding Fathers, and I find the comparison to Nazis or racists so extreme as to be amusing. Talk about hyperbole!

Experience has taught me that people who break the law in order to take drugs are far, far more likely to be breaking other laws as well, and their general level of ethics is significantly lower than average. This is one reason why I avoid people who do drugs.

Even people who are heavy users of legal drugs can be a problem. Often a large part of their lives revolves around drinking binges (if it's alcohol) or they need to smoke constantly and will reject any part of life that requires them to stop for more than an hour or two (if it's tobacco). I can live without those kinds of issues.

Substance abuse is a mental illness, and while it's not quite as extreme as, say, schizophrenia, it's still something that can potentially complicate relationships. And often the relationship isn't worth it.

If someone goes to Amsterdam for drugs, or even talks about it a lot, I make a mental note to keep my distance.

Well I will also keep my distance from such a misinformed person on cannabis - like Paul McCartney says one of the most misunderstood substances - folks like you who believe hysterical reports and thus leap to such ridiculous conclusions.

Indeed my friend I could make a case that if you are around cannabis users you may be safer than being around folks who do not use.

You Anthony stand as a testament to total ignorance about cannabis - save that it is illegal in some states - in mine it is legal for medical marijuana purposes and I am a registered card-carrying medical pot user - now that makes me legal so I guess then I pass muster with you and your ilk?

BTW if you surround yourself only with folks who have never smoked pot in their lives in my community at least you would have very few cohorts - you would be shocked at how many of your friends, customers, bosses, medical providers, etc that have indeed had normal youthful lives and yes smoked pot and may well still do. I know very successful lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc that folks who did not know them really well would never guess they regularly smoke pot.

Indeed Robert Anton Wilson points out that he and other prominent writers smoke pot all the time and their output is astounding - like he said in a High Times interview let's see if I did not smoke pot I may have authored 65 books instead of just 32 - 32 acclaimed books.

I feel sorry for the Anthony's of the world and their myopic simply ignorant view of the demon weed marijuana - I think they think Reefer Madness was a documentary movie!

I've always considered the large amount of alleged drug use in Amsterdam to be one good reason not to visit the city>

well since the Dutch use of marijuana is lower per capita than in the U.S. I guess you will not feel comfortable visiting any American city - or French either as the French, especially younger folk, smoke more pot per capita than the Dutch by about twice 0 so the irony is where it is legal or legal for all practical purposes folks smoke less than in countries like the U S or France where it is illegal.

so again Anthony you just have really poor information, at least about Amsterdam and everyone there smoking pot - not surprising in light of the many other simply uninformed statements you've been making. I guess not toking don't always mean a clear head?

"I don't worry about criticism from drug users. At the end of the day, they are the ones who are slaves to substance abuse, not me. I have enough problems to worry about without being unable to get through the day without drugs."

I think you have confused drug use with drug abuse. Many people use drugs without being "slaves to substance abuse" or "unable to get through the day without drugs."

I drink caffinated coffee and tea occasionally - I don't have to have it to get through my day and most days I don't eat or drink anything with caffiene in it, but sometimes a little caffiene jolt is nice. This is occasional drug use - not addiction.

Last night I had 2 beers - one with dinner and one after dinner while reading. I even got a little buzz. Most days I don't have anything alcoholic and very rarely drink anything stronger than beer or wine. Again, this is occasional drug use, not addiction.

There are plenty of people who smoke pot occasionally as well - they use the drug, but do not abuse it. Same with many prescription medications. Drug abuse is when the use negatively impacts one's life and/or when one is addicted to the drug.

Anthony would not be caught dead with the likes of Willie Nelson, Louis Armstrong, Carl Sagan, Robert Anton Wilson and other luminaries who in their own words or words of close friends smoked pot daily all their adult life. Poor Anthony - hanging around with only people EXACTLY like himself!