Dual Citizenship
 

So many of you are so helpful. Perhaps you can offer me some advice.<BR><BR>I'd like to apply for dual citizenship (American/Irish).<BR><BR>Both my maternal grandparents were born in Ireland and both died in the United States. <BR><BR>I know the counties they were born in in Ireland and I know the dates of their deaths.<BR><BR>In trying to get a death certificate for my grandfather who died in a hospital in New Jersey, I was informed I'd need his father's name and his mother's (my great grandparents).<BR><BR>There are no known relatives to whom to go for that information.<BR><BR>My grandmother died in New York City and I haven't the slightest idea where to go for her death certificate.<BR><BR>My grandfather died in 1959 and I was told the hospital routinely destroys such 'antiquated' certificates.<BR><BR>My grandmother died around 10 years before that.<BR><BR>In order to apply for dual citizenship, I need, among other things, a death certificate and a birth certificate.<BR><BR>Do you have any suggestions who I should contact in New York for my grandmother's death certificate and any suggestions of sites in Ireland that might offer some help in locating their birth certificates?<BR><BR>Thanks in advance for your help.<BR><BR>Erica

Erica - if you are really serious about this I highly suggest visiting your local passport agency where there will be a State Department rep who will be able to answer your questions. I might be wrong but I do not think you are allowed (in the eyes of the US) to have duel citizenship after the age of 18. Ireland will recognize both but the US will not. My experience with this is that I have several cousins born and raised in England (Dad is American/Mom is British) they had both US and British passports but at the age of 18 had to decide which one to keep. Maybe things have changed in the past few years

You can get the information for NY from:<BR><BR>State Department of Health<BR>Vital Records Office<BR>733 Broadway<BR>Albany, NY 12237-0023<BR><BR>Mailing Address:<BR><BR>PO Box 2602<BR>Albany, NY 12220-2602<BR><BR>Application Forms: 518-474-3077<BR>Credit Card Orders: 877-854-4481<BR>Fax Credit Card Processing: 877-854-4607<BR>Internet: www.health.state.ny.us and www.vitalcheck.com<BR><BR>Births - since 1881; Deaths since 1880; Marriages - since 1881; (except New York City; also no records for Albany and Buffalo for 1881-1914 and divorces for 1881-1908; contact city clerk where event occurred for those records; Divorces since 1963; before 1963, contact ocunty clerk where divorce is filed.<BR><BR>Certified copies: births, deaths, divorces - $15.00<BR>Marriages: $5.00; searches of more than three years - $5.00 per ten years searched<BR>Geneologiy fee: $11.00 for a 1-3 year search for birth, death and marriages. $21.00 per 10 years, $10.00 for each additional ten years.<BR>Credit card orders - $35.00 for record or no-record statement. Birth records only. Applicant must call himself/herself. Fee is non-refundable.<BR><BR>NYC Department of Health<BR>Office of Vital Records<BR>125 Worth Street, Room 133<BR>New York, NY 10013<BR><BR>Mailing Address:<BR><BR>PO Box 4<BR>New York, NY 10013<BR>(212) 788-4520<BR>Fax: (212) 446-0946<BR>Credit card order fax: (800) 908-9146<BR>Internet: www.nyclink.org/health<BR><BR>Five boroughs in New York City; births - 1910, Deaths 1949<BR><BR>Births and deatlhs search fee - $15.00. Includes on certified copy of record, if found. If not found, a certified certificate stating that the record was not found is issued. Additional copies ordered at the same time: $15.00. Phone orders additional $5.00 mailing and service charge payable by credit card; $11.00 additional shipping and handling fee for expedited delivery on credit card phone orders. There is not credit card service for death certificates.<BR><BR>I'll get you the information for New Jersey tomorrow.<BR>

My mom has done significant research on our family history over the past several years. I know that the Mormon Church has the largest collection of geneaology history, even on non-Mormon families (I don't know why this is). Access to the information is free, and if you do a search on Google you will be able to get their website address. Hopefully this helps. Best wishes.

I have a friend who has dual citizenship German/American. I don't know about Ireland, but you can for other countries. I think it may be true the US doesn't &quot;recognize&quot; that, whatever that means (and my friend has said something like that, also), but if the other country does, it can serve its purpose there. She wants to keep her German citizenship for family and other social reasons (ie, maybe wanting to move back in some years). I think you can as long as the other country doesn't make you forfeit your citizenship and passport when you get a new one (she just became a US citizen so now has two passports, she was German from birth). Starting with the US, it may be a different story though, at least in this case. The State Dept has rules on this which says it's okay if you get it through marriage or automatically (or like my friend, you don't have to give your birth one up)--but you can't have dual if you deliberately apply for the second as you want. So, you should check with appropriate authorities on that issue, as Jules suggested. Here's one page on it from the State Dept<BR>http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html <BR><BR>As far as the other issue, that shouldn't be too hard if you start making a few phone calls to proper authorities and have correct names. Look in the phone book under govt -- usually death certificates are handled by a state's dept. of vital statistics, public records, or something like that. If you can't find right place, just ask your local public librarian whom to call, they should know. Here is a good web site with lots of resources for Irish ancestry research:<BR><BR>http://tiara.ie/links.html<BR>

Did you know that UK passports are available to the children of parents with Northern Ireland citizenship and, unless something has changed, available to children whose parents were born in Eire too.<BR><BR>This URL will take you to a British High Commission website that has all the info you could possibly want on applying for a UK passport/visa etc.<BR><BR>http://www.britainincanada.org/Passport/index.htm<BR><BR>However, passports themselves are restricted to those whose mothers or fathers were UK citizens, not to grandchildren. <BR><BR>As a grandchild, you may not be able to get a passport but you will be able to get a passport stamp from the UK Embassy called &quot;Certificate of Right of Abode&quot;, This patriality stamp gives you the right to pass freely into the UK and work there (but not vote). <BR><BR>The forms to apply for this Certificate are also available at the URL I gave you. <BR><BR>I have an Australian friend who got his certificate on the strength of a grandfather who was born in Sligo and died in Oz. Like you, my friend had no birth certificate for his grandfather. He made the trip to Ireland and searched through the parish registers in Sligo. Although ultimately successful, it turned out to be quite a search because his grand-dad had lied about his age !<BR><BR>I don't think you will need death certificates. But you will need your grandfather's birth certificate, record of his marriage to your grandmother, record of the birth of the child who was your parent and (if male) record of his marriage to your mother as well as your own birth certificate.<BR><BR>This is laborious but worth doing (been there, dunnit, for my own dual citizenship. <BR><BR>The US has allowed Americans to have dual citizenship for some 15 years now and I know lots of Americans who have done this.<BR><BR>Good luck

Erica:<BR><BR>I have held Irish citizenship since 1985. I can't help you with how to get the information on your grandparents (well, maybe I can - I got my grandparetn' birth records through the church records of the parish they lived in), but I can tell you that the Irish Embassy is dead serious about providing whatever information it asks for - and it's a lot of information, and it all needs to be notarized and witnessed up the wazoo! I know - I've been on the phone with them for 3 weeks putting together the final application for my husband to obtain citizenship through me.<BR><BR>I should use this opportunity to clarify something I erroneously posted a few days ago - the deadline of November 29 of this year to file with the Irish Embassy applies only to persons applying for citizenship through an Irish spouse, not through parents or grandparents.<BR><BR>And I've held two passports for 17 years. If the USA doesn't recognize my Irish one, that's OK. I've still got it. It's a completely different situation from that of a child with parents of two nationalities who has to decide at age 18 which he wants to be.<BR><BR>Good luck in your search. EU citizenship and an EU passport can be very useful things to have.

Erin wrote<BR><BR>&gt;I know that the Mormon Church has the largest collection of geneaology history, even on non-Mormon families (I don't know why this is). &lt;<BR><BR> The LDS permits persons to be posthumously baptized into their faith.

I've just checked a detail about UK 'Right of Abode' as described in my earlier posting. This is only available to Commonwealth Citizens. And UK passports are not available to grandchildren. <BR><BR>So while the info I posted is useless for you (sorry !), maybe it will help someone else.

I'm Italian,<BR><BR>Any such arrangement with the Italians?

I am not absolutely sure about this, but I think there are differences within Europe. My neighbor is Swedish and she can not be a citizen of both countries, nor can her children after their age of 18. On the other hand I know that Italy, Irland,Greece and I am sure more, allow dual citizenship. Most of these countries will only let you go back as far as your grandparents. It is nice to have if you want to work in an other country or if you want to buy property. My husband got his Greek citizenship, becasue we would like to by an apratment to use in the summer. this makes it easier. I am from Boston and a lot of people here have dual with Ireland. Good luck.

The following is an interesting article discussing aspects of this subject:<BR><BR>http://www.newhavenregister.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1281&amp;dept_id=31007&amp;newsid=609 2141&amp;PAG=461&amp;rfi=9<BR><BR>(sorry if its address was too long for this window)

I agree with those who are saying you should stick with the Red, White and Blue.<BR><BR>No offense to any other country but when there is a problem in the world who are you going to run to for protection? Ireland? Denmark? Peru? I think not. U S of A!!!!! Don't dilute the patriotism that so many have fought for. Stand up and be counted as an American.<BR><BR>Thank you.

There are only a couple, at most a handful, of European countries that offer the same deal as Ireland.<BR><BR>And for those who think this is some kind of patriotic issue, you're missing the point. An EU passport/citizenship is extremely useful for anyone who wants to work in Europe, stay in Europe longer than is permitted on a tourist visa, attend school in Europe, etc. If your patriotism is such that you would never consider such activities, skip this post. General, with your views, I would think it unadvisable even to travel in Europe, or anywhere outside the US borders for that matter.<BR><BR>Not to mention you can get in shorter lines at the airport and be assured of a baggage cart.

It is not the case that children that have more than one citizenship (including US) have to decide which one to keep when they are 18. <BR>P.S. I hope that as many people as possible become dual citizens so that this blind patriotism (chauvinism) decreases. Go for it, Erica!

Joanna: It is the case that some children have to decide when they are 18. If each parent is from a different country that allows only single citizenship, the kids must make a choice at the age of 18. At least that is what I have been told is the case of the children of a French friend of mine who is married to a Hungarian.

When I read General's post, I assumed it was ironic, but since others have posted similar (though less over-the-top) sentiments, I'm going to respond anyway.<BR><BR>The main purpose of dual or multiple citizenship is to allow an individual to legally retain citizenship rights in multiple countries to which that person has equally (and extremely) close ties. I have dual citizenship by birth, and have held both passports since I was a child. I have lived in both countries as a child and as an adult, attended school in both countries, and worked professionally in both countries. I have immediate family members who live in each country. <BR><BR>When we were children, my brothers and I heard our American friends say things like &quot;I'm half Irish and half German&quot; and, not realising that they were talking about ethnicity or heritage rather than nationality or citizenship, we started saying we were &quot;half British and half American&quot;. My parents explained to us that we were, in fact, 100% British and 100% American, with all the rights and responsibilities of any other citizen of the USA or the UK. <BR><BR>Anyone who holds citizenship of more than one country has a serious obligation to each of their countries - just as serious as if it were their only country. <BR><BR>I have no problem with people who claim or obtain a second or subsequent citizenship for what might seem like frivolous or purely practical purposes, either - if it's legal, and you're willing to understand &amp; live up to the obligations of both (or all) countries, why not? However, I have to point out for the skeptics and super-patriots: dual citizenship isn't in any way inherently anti-American or unpatriotic (for those who care about such things). In my experince, asking someone who is truly a dual citizen - especially by birth - to define themselves as one or other nationality is like showing a child a picture of his mother and father and asking which one is his parent.

Nice post, Chloe.

Here is the information for New Jersey:<BR><BR>Vital Statistics<BR>Division of Management and Administration<BR>State Department of Health and Senior Services<BR>John Fitch Plaza<BR>Room 504<BR>Health &amp; Agricultural Building<BR>PO Box 370<BR>Trenton, NJ 08625-4292<BR><BR>Tel: 609-292-4087<BR>Fax: 609-392-4292<BR><BR>Internet: www.state.nj.us/health/vital/vital.htm<BR><BR>Births, deaths, marriages. Expedited service available through a company called Vital Chek, for a $9.95 additional surcharge, plus $15.25 for express delivery if desired (billing through Visa, MasterCard or Discover). Order by phone 877-572-6342<BR><BR>When year of event is supplied search fee is $4.00 for one name. Search fee includes certified copy if found. Additional copies ordered at same time $2.00 per copy.

Erica - you may also want to check to see if your parents &quot;registered&quot; your name in, say, an Irish town (perhaps the home town of either of your grandparents). That can often serve as the basis for getting a 2nd citizenship.

For Jack, who asked about Italy -<BR><BR>My coworker, who is US-born, acquired his first Italian passport at age 28. He says it is possible to obtain Italian citizenship through an Italian-born parent or even grandparent, but the catch is that Italy allows dual citizenship only by birth, not by naturalisation. He had to prove, in demonstrating his citizenship, that his Italian-born grandfather was still a citizen of Italy when his father was born, AND that his father did not acquire a subsequent nationality before my co-worker was born.<BR><BR>Luckily for him, the grandfather never did become a US citizen, and his father still had his grandfather's last Italian passport, valid when the grandfather died.<BR><BR>Check embassy or consulate of Italy in your closest city (they may have a website) for more information and application forms for the Italian passport. If you can prove you are entitled to It citizenship by birth (one of your parents was an Italian citizen when you were born), it's just a matter of paperwork to get the passport - my colleague said it took about 4 months.

Re Italian Nationality<BR><BR>I think all males under certain age (45?) who become Italian citizens are liable for conscription. It may not survive much longer as the government is trying to abolish compulsory military service but it's still a requirement, even for dual nationals who want to live in Italy. You can opt to do voluntary work instead if you are a conscientious objector.

What Jason said about Italy is pretty much the case for Germany too. I have both U.S. and German. Since I was born in the States, i get the american. And since my dad was born in germany and was still german when i was born i get the german passport. They call it blutrecht (blood right). it's perfectly legal to have both in both countries. In the u.s. you cannot get naturalized to obtain another passport, but if it's through parentage it's ok. It even says so in the U.S. passport itself.

Is there any chance for Egyptian to apply for dual citizenship? I live in the US for 12 years

Just chipping in to dispell a gigantic myth about US laws regarding citizenship. The US will *not* force you to give up your citizenship if you acquire another passport, nor will your kids have to choose at 18 or any other age. <BR>The US may not &quot;recognize&quot; another nationality but they will not expect you to forfeit your American citizenship. It is actually very hard to give up your US citizenship, even if you wanted to, the US would resist!<BR><BR>I recently acquired French nationality. I kept my US passport. The US govt couldn't care less. <BR>The key issue is transmitting your nationality to your children and their children, esp. if you live outside the US. Your kids will have it if you are American, but there are steps to go through to get them a passport if they are born abroad. Their ability to transmit US nationality to *their* children is a more delicate area and one in which legislation has recently changed. Your US Embassy can help with this if you are abroad. <BR>Good luck.

My kids have triple citizenhip (mine, their fathers, and US because that's where they were born). Neither of the three countries asks them to give up their citizenship when they turn 18.

First off, you don't need the death certificates (call the Irish Embassy in DC if you want to hear it from them).<BR><BR>Secondly, you'd better hurry up. The regulations are changing as of Nov. 29, and as of then you will not be able to apply under the Foreign Births Registry category.

Francesca, formally, the US does care if its citizens aquire another passport (and I'm not talking about kids who obtain citizenship through their parents), but they typically don't do anything about it.<BR><BR>However, if someone holding more than one passport gets into a situation overseas where they require the assistance of the US embassy, the embassy has and will say that they won't handle it, and that the person will have to go to the embassy of their other passport. Obviously, this isn't something that happens to a large percentage of people, but it's always good to know where you stand.

Ann: The deadline of November 29 of this year to file with the Irish Embassy applies only to persons applying for citizenship through an Irish spouse, not through parents or grandparents. That's not the case for the person who posted here.<BR><BR>Also, I am holding in my hand the documents I received a month ago from the Irish embassy, which detail, among other things, the requirements for obtaining citizenship through a grandparent. It says &quot;for the grandparent three documents are required in normal circumstances: A.1. The full, long form Irish birth certificate. A.2. The marriage license/certificate (civil or state-issued). A.3. If the grandparent is deceased, the death certificate; if living, a current official photo I.D. (driving licence, passport).&quot;<BR>

As a side note. . .<BR><BR>The INS (increasingly) requires that all US citizens travel into the country using their US passport.<BR><BR>I just rec'd my 1st US passport. I was born in US but moved to Canada at an early age &amp; have travelled with a Canadian passport for 20 years.<BR><BR>When I applied for the passport (and when travelling previously) the main concern from the INS was always whether I had ever relinquished my US citizenship, thru declaration or draft dodging etc.<BR><BR>Canada &amp; the United States do have a formal dual citizenship policy.

I have dual citizenship with Ireland and posses 2 passports. From my understanding I believe that if you enter a country on a certain passport lets say Irish and you have trouble...the Irish embassy will handle the matter even though you are a U.S. citizen. The passport you use upon entry dictates nationality.<BR><BR>Personally I only use my U.S. passport when entering the U.S. as it's required if you are a citizen. I find it much easier to travel on my Irish one and I seem to get stopped less at customs/immigration in other countries. No one has a beef with the Irish and it's great for travelling.<BR><BR>People who have aproblem with us having dual citizenship obivously do not realise that we still have links with our parents birthplace and may even have lived in two countries as well. I am no less Patriotic because of this. I was raised as American but always aware of my culture and relations and country my parents are from.

I'm overwhelmed!<BR><BR>Due to an unexpected serious illness in my family, I've been unable to use a computer since I posted this question.<BR><BR>I'm amazed at the response. I thank you so much!<BR><BR>Can't wait to explore all the suggestions you offered.<BR><BR>Thanks again!<BR><BR>Erica

Erica-I apologize for my misinformation. Didn't realize that the paperwork regarding grandparents were different for those applying by descent (you) and those applying through their spouse (me). Still don't understand, though, why they want a death certificate.<BR><BR>I really should just sit in a corner and shut up.

I'm topping this in the hopes that it might catch St. Cirq's attention.

That original deadline set by the Irish gov't was extended and is still in effect. Because of this, my wife and I are attempting to wade through the same procedures. She's a dual citizen of Australia and Ireland and we're attempting to do the same for me (US citizen) as you did for your husband.

We've read all the stipulations and are just getting started. What I'm most leary of are those statements about the one level of government verifying the seal of the level below it (state verifies county seal, etc). How in the world did you all pull that off? Or did it come out ok?

Thanks,
Cliff

Hi, Cliff:

Well, how's this for a two-years-later update? The Irish Embassy here in DC LOST about half of our extensive paperwork, and the guy handling our case is no longer there (from recent conversations with embassy personnel, I get the impression he was let go for incompetence). So we are now piecing together, once again, some of the elements of our applications (which are dual - one for my husband, which has to be done through Dublin, and one for my kids, which can be handled here in DC). I just drove about 50 miles the other day to get new photos signed. They had to be signed by the same notary who signed the ones we originally submitted (which were among the items lost), and he had moved to another bank. It's ridiculous!

Before I get going with a full blown rant here, I'm not sure I can answer your question. I don't remember any wording related to one level of government verifying the seal of the level below. Where did you find that language? I've got a stack of folders here on my desk related to this topic, so I'm sure I can find it, but it certainly doesn't seem to have figured into any of the stuff we've had to go through at this point.

I can certainly sympathize with both of you. I had the runaround for quite awhile with getting my dual EU citizenship, but thankfully everything turned out ok in the end.

Hang in there Clifton and StCirg...it WILL come thru eventually. Be sure to do a lot of internet research, as well.

Wow, I wasn't expecting that it would catch your attention as fast as it did. I just happen to find the thread when I was looking for some unrelated visa information, but it caught my eye.

It's amazing that after these two years, you're still in progress. At least forward is good, judging by your feedback. Ah well, off we go as well.

This was the bit from the Ireland Embassy website I was referring to. Bureaucracy in all its dazzling glory, this.

From http://www.irelandemb.org/post.html
<i>The applicant's declaration of acceptance of Irish citizenship and the affidavit made by the Irish citizen spouse must both be completed at the same time before a notary public. The applicant and the spouse must either be personally known to the notary or introduced by someone who knows them both. The notary public should delete the section of the statement of identity which does not apply. The notary public must also sign and date the reverse of the photographs being submitted as well as the reverse of both the applicant's declarations and the affidavits of the Irish spouse. The notary public?s signature must be authenticated by the Clerk of Court of the county in which the notary?s commission was granted. The seal of the County Clerk must then be authenticated by the Secretary of State of the appropriate state.</i>

I take it this wasn't an initial requirement or they weren't as specificly demanding as they seem in the above text. The Secretary of State? I can't help thinking that it's just got to be that the seal (the actual device) used has be subject to all those verifications, not that you have to carry your notarized documents back throught the system to the Secretary of State. lol. Gulp.

You're definitely fortunate to live in DC, at least in terms of this process! Out here in the hinterland (Memphis), we're tackling by email and phone. Oh, boy... but as Statia says, I guess we'll get there.

A bit o'luck to all of us.

Further to Ira's explanation of the Mormon interest in genealogy - Erica, the LDS records are a useful resource, but they're by no means complete or infallible. They suffer from the usual problems, including inaccurate transcriptions from semi-legible handwritten sources and variable name spellings, often as a result of a clergyman or official recording the name of an illiterate registrant, immigrant etc. and having to take a best guess at the spelling. As a small example, I had the name of one of my Irish ancestors spelt as &quot;Smith&quot; (it was Smyth, presumably pronounced &quot;Smith&quot;) and her place of birth as &quot;Nice&quot; (it was Naas, Co. Kildare, pronounced &quot;Nayce&quot;) - both based on a passenger manifest for the voyage from Liverpool to Sydney in 1842. A more extreme case was that of an English ancestor whose name mutated into no less than 14 different spellings after his (compulsory) migration to Australia.

Until civil birth, deaths &amp; marriages registrations came into force church records were it, so you have to hope your forebears were religious (again, one of mine came from a &quot;godless&quot; coal mining community and was never baptised - result, no record of birth at all).

Family history research is fraught with these and other potential blockers - you need time and persistence. If you subscribe to Rootsweb lists for the counties/cities in question you can get a lot of helpful information from other researchers. A search will also reveal a host of online record sources, some free, some by subscription. There are also agents in many countries who will carry out searches for you for a fee. Good luck - if nothing else you might gain a sometimes frustrating but fascinating hobby.

Cliff: That Secretary of State nonsense was not a requirement when we began the process, and I hope to God it hasn't become one since! I'm having enough trouble resurrecting all the items the embassy lost when Mr. O'Donnell resigned.

The business about the signing and notarizing of the photos was, indeed, one of the things I had to redo a week or so ago. Now I've got to gather together &quot;5-7&quot; pieces of mail that are addressed to both my husband and me (sounds easy, but we have different last names and not that many things come to both of us - want to write us a letter?:)

They also asked repeatedly for &quot;an expanded marriage license,&quot; which they described as a marriage license that not only has our names on it, but the names of our parents as well, and a seal of the state (district) we were married in. Well, DC, which is where we were married, doesn't DO &quot;expanded marriage licenses,&quot; so they eventually dropped that requirement.
I must tell you that I've gotten different requirements from three different people I've been in touch with at the Irish Embassy over the past few weeks. I'm not at all convinced the right hand knows what the left is doing.
Just keep calling them so your name becomes familiar to them. And keep sending documentation - ANY documentation - and I suspect eventually you'll tame the beast.
You'll probably need a few pints of Guiness to get through it, though ;)

If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance.. eh? :)

I like the approach though. Wear them down before they can wear you down. We'll do that. I just checked and our marriage license (the original, from Missouri) doesn't have places for parents names either. Yet another thing to wrangle over. I think they just do this as the Irish love a good debate.

LOL. Like I wasn't going to have the Guinness anyway! We'll launch all this stuff at them as soon as we can and get the ball rolling, one way or the other. Appreciate the insights! Will let you know if we discover any hidden passageways or trap doors.