does this make sense? Provence help please.
 

Hi everyone -
FInally might have a plan for our week in Provence (after week in Paris) in May 2011. Am thinking of train from Paris to Avignon on Saturday, 3 nights in St. Remy (sat/sun/mon), 3 nights outside of St. Saturnin les apt (tues/wed/thurs) (seems to be a good base for the area and there is a B and B that interests me there), and then one night in Aix (fri night). Then take train from Aix back to Paris on saturday for night before our flight (that is non-negotiable as we are leaving out of Orly and most of you advised me to do this on a different thread). Hadn't thought about the one night in Aix until now but really did want to spend a little time in Aix and its not super close to the other places we are staying, and then we could hit up the Saturday market there.

Is it worth it to change locations for one night, considering we will then be spending only one night the next night as well in Paris? Will we be able to go to the Saturday market and take the train back to Paris in time to eat dinner (in the train station) that night?

We will also have a rental car that I suppose we'd pick up in Avignon and drop off in Aix, if that changes anything..

I think Aix is worth a night if the market Saturday morning is high on your "to do" list. It's a lively and pleasant place great for an evening stroll with loads of restaurants and cafés. Plus if you are dropping off your car and taking the train from here it seems like a good logistical fit.

You didn't say what time your train arrives in Paris on Sat. but since you'll be arriving at Gare de Lyon if the place in the train station you want to eat is Le Train Bleu their website says they will seat people until shortly before 11:00 at night.

Nice itinerary.

We spent 1 night in Aix this year as a "overnighter" from our Gite near Carpentras where we stayed for 2 weeks (17th & 18th week in Provence). Fabulous.

Are you staying at Kevin's B&B near St Saturnin les Apt???

Be aware that many shops will be closed in St Remy on Monday (most open on Sunday, however).

We had dinner at Train Bleu this year - 5th time dining there & probably 50 pictures taken of the interior.

Stu Dudley

You must include some/several "plus beau villages". Gordes, Meneres etc. Google "plus beau villages" in Provence/Luberon as you will have a car and they are so charming..The traffic is awful in Aix, especially mid to late afternoon..Avignon is awesome with the papal palace.. Can't say enough about this area. Would go back in a NY minute!!!

Thanks for the helpful comments so far. Stu - I am definitely leaning towards staying at Kevin's place...how can I resist a fellow Fodorite? Haven't contacted them yet though, so here's hoping they have availability. Good point about the shops. My husband wants to be very relaxed during this week so he certainly won't mind. He's already announced we're going to see one town or sight per day and that's it after the running around in Paris. This will be hard for me as I like to squeeze in as much as possible!

I don't know what time our train will arrive on sat, but good point that if we are eating in the train station it should be fine! We will book a hotel very nearby and just drop our luggage off there. HOw long is the train from Paris to Avignon and then back from Aix to Paris? (i have tried to look this up but had some difficulty actually figuring it out)

We visited Provence for 8 nights in May 2009. We stayed for 4 nights in St Remy and 4 nights in Bonnieux. We loved Bonnieux and the towns of the Luberon.

I did not love St Remy, the center of town is a paved parking lot. Yes there is a very nice historic area but it just does not measure up to the other towns in Provence. If we did it all over again we would stay the entire time in L'Isle sur la Sorgue. It is very centrally located to ALL of Provence, not too large and not too small. The weekly market is probably the best in Provence.

Aix, Avignon, Le baux,Uzea, Arles, Venasque, Brantes and Seguret are some of our favorites. All can be visited from L'Isle sur la Sorgue in a day.

I envy your trip. Kevin is a ery nice man, you will be happy there.One year we dropped our car off in Avignon at the airport and flew to CDG from there.

Ah yes - the St. Remy debate. I do know there are a lot of conflicting opinions on St. Remy on this board. I did want to stay in two different areas, even though nothing is THAT far apart, it just seemed like a good idea - I like to try different B and Bs/hotels, and wanted one mid-sized town and one smaller one ideally. I was attracted to St. Remy also because there seem to be a lot of good restaurants there. We like to be able ideally to walk to dinners. Although I'm sure there are a lot of good restaurants in L'isle sur la sorgue too. I've been dithering around on the decision of where to stay for several months now....so hard to sort through all the conflicting comments, but I do need to decide.

The train times from Paris to Avignon/Aix can vary depending on the number of stops but the fastest time from Paris to Avignon is 2 hours 40 minutes+-. The fastest time from Aix to Paris is just over 3 hours.

Another great town to consider as a base instead of St. Remy would be Uzès. While people often differ on their opinion of St. Remy, Uzès is fairly well loved by all. It's less centrally located than St. Remy but I personally find it more charming and it has lots of restaurants, cafés, stores etc. and is very lively.

Every time I think I've made a decision then I can't commit again...what a good problem to have though. It seems from other threads that people choose St. remy for its location...which is important but since we are also staying at another location in Luberon maybe we won't need to travel as far. I hadn't thought about Uzes. (We also want to be able to take a day trip to cote du rhone wineries) Does anyone else want to defend St. Remy? (this is our first time to provence)

Also - if we do settle on st. Remy, should we reverse the order of things so we are there for the market on Wed?

Uzes is fine - a little more out of the way than St Remy, however. As a town, I actually prefer Uzes over St Remy. It is a little less touristy & has a colorful Saturday market. We stayed in a Gite close to Uzes for 2 weeks a couple of years ago. If you stayed in Uzes, you would be closer to the northern stuff in Provence, than you would be from St Remy. You could visit the southern sites in Provence easily from St Saturnin.

Stu Dudley

Stu Dudley

Interesting, thanks. We would miss the Sat. market because we wouldn't get in until the afternoon.

What exactly are the bad things about St. Remy? Just that it's crowded/touristy? I am a tourist after all. I know that's sort of a heretical thing to say...but how crowded are we talking about? We will have just come from Paris so I imagine still quite a contrast!

And are there other towns I should be considering that would make a good pair with St. Saturnin??

I'm reading these opinions here with interest.

I thought there was something wrong with me that I really hated St. Remy. I was on foot and on bike, so I did a lot of exploring in the town and just didn't "get it". As one poster said above--a heck of a lot of cement. Did enjoy visiting the asylum because of Van Gogh interest, and I had a lovely lunch. Other than that...

To answer your question, sharbear84...There are a lot of places that are touristy where you still say, "Wow, I understand why all these people are here." Actuallly, I didn't even feel particularly crowded (middle of July) but I sure didn't understand any appeal.

Thanks AlessandraZoe - that helps. I understand it's hard to be specific about a personal reaction to a place, but I appreciate everyone's effort to try to explain it to me.

You are more than welcome. I didn't even bike through St. Saturnin, so I am no help to you there.

I must say I liked the Luberon side of Provence much more than St. Remy side. We stayed just south of Les Baux on that side. On the Luberon side, we stayed in Saignon for a couple of nights--nothing going on in town but still enjoyed immensely; good access to Apt for services. We were using that location to bike Roussilon, Gordes,Bonnieux, Menerbes, etc. Given some of the comments above, I find it ironic that when I biked through L'Isle de la Sorgue on way up to Mazan (Mazan was OK, but...) and said to myself, "Next time, I'm coming back here"

So that's all I have to offer!

Oh--And I liked the Hotel d'Europe in Avigon.

If I put on my first-timer hat, St Remy is quite appealing to me. Easy to get in & out by car, lots of shops that appeal to tourist, lots of restaurants & cafes that appeal to tourist, lots of tourists like me, many places to stay, many people speak English in the shops, hotels, & restaurants, and it is close to les Baux, Arles, Nimes, & Avignon.

If I put on my 50th timer hat - the crowds, tourists shops, and English are much less appealing. Les Baux, Arles, Nimes, and Avignon are too close. There is too much not-so-scenic commerce north, east, & west of St Remy (south is fine). Also, many villages of similar size in France have put attractive cobblestones in the streets what carry a lot of pedestrians. Last time we were in St Remy ('07) there were no cobblestones - mostly asphalt.

Sharbear - of the smaller cities/towns in the Provence region where you can walk to several restaurants & cafes, I think Uzes is my favorite. It would be an excellent complement to St Saturnin. Vaison is closer to the Cote du Rhone winegrowing region, but it is not as appealing as Uzes, IMO.

Stu Dudley

Thanks Stu. I feel it would be a shame to stay in Uzes and miss the market. Is there any way you think we could get there in time if we are not leaving Paris till that morning? (Our apt is sat - sat rental in Paris)
Also, in terms of market days or any other considerations, what would be the best order to do - Uzes and then St. Saturnin or the other way around?

Hello sharbear84,

We went through the same experience as you. 12 months ago I only knew that Provence was somewhere in France. It took a lot of research and reading to finally decide to stay in the Luberon at Le Mas Perreal (Kevin’s place - http://www.masperreal.com/). Staying there will allow us to get in the car and leisurely drive to some of the picturesque little towns people have discussed in this and many other threads. The people on Fodor’s and Stu’s itinerary are invaluable.

Our pace is slow and we don’t have to see everything. Finishing off our last 4 days in France will be relaxing and easy going. We will be there early next May so I can’t give you any concrete feedback yet except to say we have attempted to match our vacation style with the location/region. I am sure we will come home very satisfied.

Enjoy the planning.

DaveMM

DaveMM - sounds like we will just miss seeing you there! You have inspired me to book mas perreal sooner rather than later - I am not the only one who plans trips very far in advance.

Sundays & Mondays can be very dead days in cities. However, the "countryside" will be awaiting you and Gordes & Roussillon near St Saturnin will have shops open on Sundays. You would start Sunday with a visit to the fabulous food, antique, & craft market in l'Isle sur la Sorgue. Get to l'Isle sur la Sorgue by 8:15, walk through the market area & watch the vendors set-up their displays, have coffee & croissants at a cafe next to the church (where the TI is located, BTW), then hit the market at 8:45 & then outtathere bu 10:30 when the market gets mobbed. Regular shops will be open in l'Isle sur la Sorgue on Sunday.

So - it is best to start your visit to Provence in St Saturnin, then Uzes. Uzes has a market another day of the week (I think Wed) but it is a much smaller market.

All of this is explained in greater depth in my 27 page Provence Itinerary which I may have already sent you. If not, e-mail me at [email protected] & I'll e-mail you one.

BTW, Apt has a huge market on Saturday morning, so you may be able to catch the end of that - closes around 1PM. However, I think the market in l'Isle sur la Sorgue will staisfy your market visiting needs.

Stu Dudley

Stu - thanks! I do have your itinerary and should have read it over again before asking questions. I'll blame that on trying to do my full time job while sneaking peeks at my Fodors thread when I can. We will be in Aix for fri night/saturday morning so will be able to see the market there. I'm glad you reminded me about the L'isle sur la sorgue market, that helps me figure out the timing of things as I'd like to see that.

Turns out my husband doesn't like the plan for two one night stops at the end of the trip....so trying to decide whether to nix staying over in Aix or to just do 5 nights in one location (probably Luberon) and then two in Aix.

Why not spend your 1st Saturday night in l'Isle sur la Sorgue and wake up to the fabulous Sunday market(our favorite) as described above by Stu.Depending on when your train arrives in Avignon on Saturday you can visit Pont du Gard and/or the Palace of the Popes and the famous broken bridge of nursery rhyme fame.

Spend the rest of the time based at Kevin's B&B from where there are numerous day trip possibilities including to Aix(Tues & Thurs markets). We will be staying at Kevin's July 2011.

You can return to Paris from Avignon. It is a 1 hour drive from the B&B to Avignon TGV. You can leave after breakfast and take the train at 12:30 PM. Saves you car drop off charges of Hertz or Avis. Don't forget to buy your train tickets 90 days ahead and hopefully get a "prem" for 22 Euros each way.

>>buy your train tickets 90 days ahead <<

Three months in advance. If you plan to travel on Sept 10, you should reserve on June 9 at 6:05 pm EDT (which is 12:05 am June 10 France time). That is 92 days in advance.

idTGV trains can be booked sooner.

Keroac on this forum has stated that PREMS sometimes are not available immediatly - he may have a point.

Stu Dudley

Stu
Thanks for the exact ticket buying schedule and the additional information. One thing I discovered when "practicing" ticket ordering online: our 8 year old does not get the PREM ticket while the 12 year old does. This is not a big deal, but seems strange, that the fare for the 8 year old is 4 euros more than that of the rest of us. Anyone know if this is correct?

Thanks very much for the train tips- I will have to put on my calendar three months before to remember to buy them (and practicing sounds like a good idea, as the few times I have tried to go on the train sites I've gotten confused - all I have is forgotten high school French)

Dugi_otok - Perhaps a good idea to stay in Isle sur la sorgue one night. I love the look of the town from what I can see online, although I haven't seen any hotels/b&bs that have caught my fancy yet...and am trying to avoid as many one night only stays as I can, but am consider it.

Sorry for the atrocious grammar in the above post - meant to write "am considering it."
Another question I have - I am wondering about restaurants. One of the reasons I originally wanted to stay in St. Remy was I thought there were good restaurants there (and also that we could stay where we could potentially walk to them in the evening). Are there good places to eat in/around St. Saturnin les apt? (We don't mind driving a little bit, but don't want to be forced to0. What about UZes?

There are loads of restaurants in Uzès. I have no personal recommendations although I am sure others will. In the meantime just googling the words "Uzès restaurant reviews" will get you started. Here's a link:

http://tinyurl.com/2bgftmk

Yeah I suppose there are going to be good restaurants everywhere. I still can't decide between the following options:
1. 3 nights/4 nights split between Uzes and St. Saturnin
2. 3 nights/4 nights split between St. REmy and St. Saturnin
3. 5 nights in St. Saturnin/2 nights in Aix

I am usually not this bad at making decisions!!

I'm not including Uzes where we had a lovely stay because it is in the Gard , not Provence and too far out to visit in one week, the Alpilles, Vaucluse and the Luberon. In two weeks we
were able to visit our favorite places including the Var and the Alps, but my late husband loved the drives with the scenery. If you do go to Isle. My favorite restaurant is Le Jardin du Quai

My vote is for #1. Uzes was one of our favorite towns. The weekly market is fantastic and there are lots of restaurants and interesting architecture. It is a bit far west but close to the western sights of Provence.

I am not a fan of St Remy so #2 is out.

#3 would not allow easy access to the towns of western Provence so that would not work for me.

I vote for NOTHING with St. Remy.

Oh dear. Like you, Shar, I went back and forth over which town is best as a base because we (dtr and I) prefer one place from which we can do day trips/drives. Chose St Remy mainly because of Stu's rec as a good first time to Provence base. Now that i read what makes it a "good" base, i wonder...it sounds like kind of place we may not want (everyone speaks English, lots of tourist shops, etc>) For us, the other alternative was Uzes, but it is in quite different area (as Cigale says, not really Provence).
I love the looks of the flat we rented in St Remy, but now not so sure...back to the drawing board!

If you want to avoid the tourists & much of the English in St Remy, stay there but only visit the town in the earlier parts of the morning and in the later afternoon & evening - when the day trippers won't be there. If you can speak Frence, the shop keepers will speak French to you - even if they realize that you are having difficulty.

I agree with InMiami - Aix is too far away from many of the popular sites in Provence. See the sites in Eastern Provence (incl Aix) from St Saturnin, & those in western Provence and the Gard from Uzes or St Remy. Avoid driving close to Avignon - except to visit Avignon (horrible sprawl to the north, east, & somewhat in the south.).

Stu Dudley

Well, having just reviewed distances for day trips, i remember why i went with Stu's rec--St Remy is convenient for seeing the So we'll stick with it for this trip, and after a day trip to Uzes, see if it looks good for a future base ( and from what you Fodies say, it is!
We arrive into St Remy on a Saturday (the Sat-to Sat rental period) and will take amer-can's , Stu's and and Alessandra (even tho you warn against St Remy (-: others' advice, be up and out early Sat to l'Isle Sur la Sorgue, and after market, head out out some other "plus beaux" villages eg menerbes,gordes. And we'll still have 4-5 days for r and r chez nous and/ or day trips into the countryside. Ah...to have more time!!

Thanks Stu, for the advice about St Remy (time to visit, English,etc) Our emails crossed, but it gave me time to appreciate why I agreed with your rec in the first place, when i started to plan this trip. Merci encore, M. DudLEY!

>>be up and out early Sat to l'Isle Sur la Sorgue, <<

Sunday to l'Isle sur la Sorgue. You won't be in Provence on the first Sat morning.

Stu Dudley

Oops--many thanksfor keeping me organized, Stu. You're right...so after arrival to St Remy that first Saturday late afternoon for a week-long stay (driving from Carcassonne, with a Friday night midpoint stay between Sarlat and St Remy) and a good sleep, we'll be up early Sun a.m. for L'Isle Sur la Sorgue and nearby points... your printed Provence guide on hand!

Thanks for the advice-- we'll speak French as much as possible, and hope the shopkeepers don't answer us back too often in English!! My daughter had been studying so hard in her French class, with this trip as partial reward for learning well.

Thank you all for sharing Provence ideas f!!!