I assume some people sometimes mix up what is the norm and what is the exception.

I guess you can say that the average waiter in France can be reserved, compared to his American counterpart. But so is any waiter between Sevilla and Helsinki.
You are not supposed to handle fruits with bare hands. Fine, but same goes for Italy or elsewhere.
You say Bonjour when you enter a (small) store - but I've also been greeted a zillion times when I was entering a small store in the States. You obviously don't scream Bonjour into each corner of the store when you go into Galleries Lafayette.

Actually, it is a total myth that it is local customs in France to throw yourself at the mercy of a waiter or accept lousy service. They will not make a fuzz about nothing, but if the restaurant should not get the meals right or the sommelier brings the wrong wine at a wrong temperature you can experience what happens when monsieur le client is losing his patience. It may still be in a polite tone if you can't understand the language, but the content can be crystal clear in what the customer thinks of the waiter and the establishment.

cold --
Other side of the coin. I speak a little French from my Foreign Service days, though it's a bit rusty now. It worked in France last time. But I was surprised during a short trip to Montreal last fall that no one seemed to understand me. I mean, no one. They switched to English and didn't appear annoyed (smart, with a paying customer).

I've kept out of this because I smell a troll.

That's interesting Fra_Diavolo. I think most would say that French from France is much much easier to understand than French in Canada (there are a few variations up here). The French are much more precise. So I would have thought your French would be easily understandable in Montreal.

Someone may have an answer.

I don't smell a troll, but then again I seldom do.

I know this is an attitude held by many, and I have encountered it over and over again when I say I am going to France. And it isn't held exclusively by people who have never been there; I have had conversations with people who describe their bad experiences in France. I am never sure whether to ascribe this to misunderstanding, which is probably the case a good bit of the time; or to general lack of comfort in unfamiliar surroundings; or to provocation; or to self-fulfilling prophecy.

I occasionally watch Canadian news in French, and every time I do it occurs to me that the accent and intonation sound very much like what my elderly neighbors in the Périgord sound like. It's a kind of nasal twang and the overemphasis of final syllables, like they're talking through a kazoo.

I think a lot of it is people who expect rudenss and conflict and then either see it where it isn't or cause it.

My second trip to Paris we encountered some people going the same place and decided to share a cab - before we realized they were hauling a ton of luggage. Long story short - at the end of the ride they were outraged when they were charged extra for luggage - and started shouting about being cheated. The official rate sheet - which the cabbie had, clearly showed the specific (minimal) charge but they went on at a great rate - louder and louder - about not wanting to be cheated. We paid for their luggage (they didn't know) just to get them to shut up and stop embarassing us. And they were still convinved they were right - even without a word of French (and I had enough to red the rate info).

Voila! Rude french cab driver trying to cheat them.

It's very hard to generalize about spoken Canadian French.

I agree it's not a euphonious accent. But the best Quebec French is very good and very lightly and pleasantly accented.

The worst "joual" and - lower still on the scale - really bad Ontario French are horrid, a linguistic abomination and full of quite unnecessary Anglicisms.

Acadien French is a mystery to me. Meaning I can't follow it, not that I haven't heard it.

I'd say the standard of spoken French is far more even in France, though I admit I've never dealt with the rural peasantry or the urban underclass.

NO! I have been to France 5 times and had no hint of rudeness. Although I don't speak French, I always try and have learned enough to get by on. We do make an effort to not be too loud at restaurants and other public places, are polite and patient and have had great experiences.

My husband has a theory that the rudeness people say they encounter is their own rudeness being reflected back on them. I HAVE seen some behavior from my fellow Americans that I want to apologize for and it makes me cringe. (Please don't snap at people to get their attention)!

I remember a local man at a cafe making a point to ask me where I am from and saying, "welcome"...no rudeness at all.

If your husband won't go...go on your own. Do try to learn a few words and phrases, smile and you will have a great time. France is amazing...don't miss it!

At one time, the Cabinet minister responsible for my department was an Acadien from Nova Scotia. At Christmas he wished us all a "Yoyeux Noel". I was gobsmacked.

tedgale - I have, in Dijon. Surprised me as I was in a bar, waiting to be seated for dinner.

Someone on the sidewalk outside where I was, started yelling. One of the men at the bar went outside and they proceeded to punch and wrestle each other.

The locals didn't think much of it, as if it happened frequently. Kind weird.

That was probably a Roman outside that bar. If you had been socialized with Asterix cartoons like us in Europe, you would have known that fist fights are a daily exercise in Gaul. Especially after too much magic potion or with Romans around to beat up.
http://www.free-hdwallpapers.com/wal...ment/46499.jpg

. I'm certain there are plenty of others with great experiences from pre-Albertville. As others have said, if you go looking for rudeness, you'll probably find it.
_____
I do not look for it. We have made live-long friends with people from other coutries. We just came back from the UK and Ireland and they are among the nicest people we have ever encountered. And the Spanish and Italians are extremely gracious and kind when you attempt to speak their language.

No - but as my French son who grew up in France and many of his relatives claim the French are rude to everyone, even the French!

I have tried very, very hard to learn a few words of Scottish. But they still speak back to me in complete gibberish.

Just a couple of comments.

I completely agree that formailty of address is much more important, the French generally are not as direct, almost all queries, conversations, greetings start with "Bonjour, madame or monsieur, " or the person's name if you know it, rather than launching straight in as we Americans tend to do.

I've been taking French for 3 years in a structured class of from 8-10, a core group of 5 have been at it for the full 3 years. Our instructor said last month, that if we were all in agreement, she thought we could start to use "tu" (tutoyer) as an address instead of "vous".

Apart from the occasional difficult fontionnaire, which could be anywhere, the French have been helpful, kind and welcoming to us.

Hi FD,

>I speak a little French from my Foreign Service days, though it's a bit rusty now. It worked in France last time. But I was surprised during a short trip to Montreal last fall that no one seemed to understand me.<

I've been able to get over the years with my increasingly rusty and out of date Parisian French, but on a visit to Alsace the proprietor of the hotel where we were staying requested that I please speak to him in German.

((I))
I'm not sure if it was because Parisian was too different from what he grew up with or that he found my Brooklyn accent unbearable.

I have a feeling that your husbands friends are either dolts, or have never been to France. Pick one.

I also do not understand why any negative interaction with a service person is blamed on them not liking your nationality.How pray tell do they even know if you are American, I know I sound just like an American .. wear same clothes , watch same tv shows,, I live near Canadian/American border . It seems a bit conceited to assume that all english speaking tourists are American, they are not, so perhaps they "hate" the Aussies, Brits and Canadains too? No, of course not,, how about , the waiter just had a fight with his wife, or his dog died that morning, and he is just having a bad day? Does anyone ever just think they are freaking humans, and like anyone some have good and bad days and you may accidently be on the recieving end of a grump, who may well be grump equally to everyone !

The rudest waiter we had was in Hawaii.. do Hawaiians hate Canadians?

Cathinjoetown: if you and your classmates addressed each other by your first names, it would be anomalous to use vous. Your teacher should have made the switch long ago, IMO. If you were Monsieur and Madame to each other, that's a different story.

Colduphere, I was married to a Scot for over 20 years and still had to ask for a translation.

ted, I agree, but that's how our instructor wanted it although we always addressed her and each other by our first names.

"if you and your classmates addressed each other by your first names, it would be anomalous to use vous. Your teacher should have made the switch long ago, IMO. If you were Monsieur and Madame to each other, that's a different story."

I beg to disagree. You can very well address people (your colleagues at work for instance) by their first name and still use vous.

Anyway, verb endings are more predictable in the 2nd P. Pl. That's why I've always preferred it.

I think it would be very useful to address classmates as tu. I never get a chance to practice the familiar form of verbs and would be pretty clueless if I were in a situation that called for it.

I’ve just reread the OP. A troll, as suggested by Kerouac? Perhaps. This subject has been discussed endlessly in many threads. I have a problem with the essential question of the OP. Do you honestly see the complexities and subtleties of the two countries so simplistically?

To respond in kind: (simplistically)

Yes, I have had some negative experiences in Paris. By far, my experiences have been been rich, exciting,and wonderful.

Be strong, curious and welcoming to new experiences. Don’t allow yourself to be 'shut down' before you even set foot in Paris, and in the rest of France. Stop being ruled by preconceptions, or a poll of ‘how you should experience your own life’.

When thinking about it, we call most of our neighbors by their first names as they do us but it's "vous" all the way round. Maybe there's a progression, first Mme or M. and of course vous, then first names and vous, then first names and tu!

As rolfene hasn't replied to a single post since 2006 I rather doubt, copperandjade, that you'll get much of reply.

I must say, it is true. Absolutely. Without a doubt. Frank people hate Amercians. It begins small, a rise of the nose, a wince of the eye and before you know it...yep...crepes in your pants. Mostly it comes from those that were born in the Petit Mime regions, near the villages of Marceau and Marcel. Amercians locked them all in boxes when they were little and would not let them out. To this day the hatred simmers. They did get some relief though when they brainwashed Walt Disney and had him create the Small World ride...the song, the horror...

:-)

dave

I don't think rolfene is a troll becuase I remember my first trip to Paris years ago. I was told by some people, one was a relative, who told me why go there? The people are rude. Funny when I know they had never visited. My friend who went with me didn't like it and never told me why but ended up living there for 2 years.

On my second trip to visit her, I took my mom with me who had a bad experience. While getting on the bus to my friend's flat, a Parisian woman would not move out the way that is reserved for bikes, strollers or things with wheels. Well, of course, that was were we went with out luggage. Sure enough the bus turned and one suitcase took my mom out at the knees, knocking her into the woman. The woman wasn't old and boy did she start cursing in French. As my mom went down she hit her head and couldn't get up. The woman was ok and she stepped over my mom and went to an open seat which there where plenty of. My poor mom was laying on the floor and I could barely help her up. My mom felt horrible and kept trying to apologize and the woman kept cursing at her until my friend finally said real loud in English, she should apologize to you for not moving out of the way. At that point we knew the woman spoke English and we know she heard us when we got on the bus and said how she should move as there was space for her to move to. We got on the bus at the same time.

That one incident in Paris in less than 24 hrs on arrival, has caused one person to really dislike Paris and the people. Now would all Parisian's have been like that? Probably not.

We were in Edinburgh two weeks and Mrs Adu thought one guy was speaking Bulgarian until he said, "Aye."

rolfene,

Leave your husband at home and go yourself.

Good idea ParisAmsterdam!

I've been all across France and had many moments of kindness that the French went out of their way to be helpful.
Americans who go unprepared of the basics will get what they think is rude. Knowing basic French words for hello, good bye thank you, will get you far. I've seen Americans yell at waiters for their check, a no, no, Pick up merchandise in a boutique, a no, no. Order something they didn't know what it was and complain.

I didn't know what a duvet was, or whatever those things to clean your butt are called, on my first trip to France. So I washed my clothes in mine. I got snapped at for doing that. How was I to know?

duvet is a blanket, I think you mean bidet but I think it's trolling you are doing 9as usual)

Unsubstantiated bigotry!

How long will this pointless thread continue?

One of the most poignant days of my life occurred about three years ago when visiting the American war cemetery near Normandy and there were many French school children there standing at complete attention as they played the US National Anthem and each placing a flower on one of the graves. It almost brought tears to my eyes and should dispel this silly notion. Lots of American boys lie in cemeteries in France and gave their lives so that France might be free and the vast majority of the French people know that.

Open your mind and heart, Paris is possibly the most fabulous travel experience out there. Go to Normandy, there is an American flag flying in every village and new memorials to our soldier/liberators being built every year. Don't buy into Faux News. The French people may dislike some of our government's policies( doesn't any thinking person) but they certainly don't hate us. There are rude people everywhere, probably even in your own neighborhood! Life is what you make it and if you can afford to see France it is definitely your loss if you don't. Read "Is Paris Burning" and contemplate what could have been destroyed. Or just forget a fascinating place and go to Hawaii, now there is an interesting place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Open your minds...I think Kerouac is right! I went and looked and Rolfene (kind of sounds like rolfing or throwing up) has not replied to about 10-12 threads she's started since 2006. And she's gotta be loving this one--about 75 entries?