Zippo: Reading comprehension not your strong suit?I never claimed the U.S. hasn't made mistakes,the world without the U.S. would be a scary place indeed.Would you rather have a world 1/2 Communist/socialist,1/2 Muslim fundamentalist?

Valid point. I guess my opinions on this are: we (including me) can all find historical reasons to justify one position or another...France is a our saviour, france is a traitor, the USA won the second world war, the allies won the second world war... But we do live in an extremely interconnected world, and it is near impossible for anyone to take a position to 'retaliate' against one country oe another. You may decide not to visit but you invariably support that country in other ways, so the net result is....for example, Canada is a large supplier to the USA of lumber, oil, metals, maple syrup:)etc... are you going to check to see where the wood in your new house came from before buying it, or where the gas came from before fillfing your tank? Not likely. Simlarly, France owns many companies in the US, including media companies. Are you going to check before going to see a movie or buying a CD who will profit from it? Tough to do....Approciate the comments being presented here...In my case, I choose to experience the world, and not shut out possible locations because of their political views, while acknowledging that some countries do not deserve my tourist dollars (say North Korea)

We're going to Boston in the fall. I can't decide whether to go out of support for gay marriage or out of support for the Archdiocese kicking out pedophile priests. Or maybe I'll just go 'cause it's a cool city with great museums and restaurants.

Re: what have the French done for us lately. Have you forgotten Afghanistan (where French special forces are currently working closely with the United States)? Have you forgotten the war on terror (not to be confused with the war in Iraq, which is more likely to go down in history as the war that <i>increased</i> terrorism)? Have you forgotten that French troops protected and evacuated Americans from the Cote d'Ivoire last year?

Well put, Michel Paris.

&gt;&gt;<i>It is not only what France (for example) has done, but what the ordinary French citizen thinks</i>

But how can you know what the ordinary French citizen thinks if you don't go there and meet and experience ordinary French citizens first hand?

Please don't tell me that you accept what the media tells you. And that goes for the French media as well as the American media.

We've been to France twice this year and had nothing but positive experiences with the people we met there. That includes not only the French but tourists from other countries (Germany, U.K., Spain).

I think we all tend to like stereotypes because it makes life easy, like French waiters are rude, Americans are loud. But just as we don't ever want to be stereotyped, we should strive to find out...for ourselves...what other cultures are about. The media loves, really loves, controversy and stories that attract viewers and sell papers. Would you want Europeans to judge the US based on daily news about South LA (apologies to any californians) or the creating of freedom fries? Probably not...so likewise, don't judge europeans by Chirac or Le Pen or any other 'media friendly targets'. No one country is pure, no one country has a monopoly on virtue...it's a gray world out there..

Goodness do you take everything you read in the papers as gospel!? Didn't the NY times places and apology about an article they wrote prior to troops going over saying there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and they were actually misled.

You get differennt perspectives from reading different countries newspapers...which one is right/wrong/accurate or maybe a combination of them?? People are not thinking for themselves at times and you need to take this ability back and make informed decisions. Believe it or not people are not running around europe burning American flags...we have our own problems too! But if you feel a reason not to go then don't fair enough you have the right as well.

Elle: We've been to France 3 times and I love visiting, we will return some day. I just made a personal decision about current French policy. It's one thing to oppose us, quite another to agressively lobby the world against us.The last straw for me was why they opposed us.They had no altrustic motives,pure money and personal self interest.What DeVillipen did to his friend Colin Powell was criminal.

SiobhanP: Are you sure WMD didn't get moved to Syria,Lebanon,Iran, Al Queda etc.Tell me you know they don't exist,I'll be sure to feel more secure.

MK2: You could take a few lessons from MichelParis on how to make your point.Someone like you who fancies themself a wordsmith diminishes themself when they spew,it also diminishes others (myself included)when in anger they respond in kind.

mg, I really don't think that by withholding French support, France tried to lobby the world against the U.S. The Germans and Russians had other reasons for withholding support, they didn't just do it because France told them to.

On a personal level, I think that what Villepin did to Powell was heinous. But the more I learn about Villepin, the less well I think of him anyway. And the more I see Powell mouthing words that he knows are not true and staying in an administration whose values he so obviously despises, the less respect I have for him.

Siobhan--the teaching of critical thinking skills has fallen out of favor in some quarters. One of the consequences is unquestioning acceptance of information and images spoonfed to audiences by the media, without consideration of context, credibility, or motive.

Chirac was bought and paid for by Iraqi many years ago. The arrogrant twit did try to rally the world against the US. He had a good thing going and didn't want to see it stop.

France thinks its still a world power but it has not been for many decades. Its only power is at the UN security council and in bullying weaker EU members.

If the truth ever comes out about the UN Oil for Food Program scandal, you will see the true motivation of France and Germany.

Elle: you make some very valid points,the one I differ with is Villepin on Chirac's behalf personally and vigorously lobbied and pressured African and other members of the security council and threatened Eastern European countries with EU.retribution if they didn't side with France against the U.S.

WMD do not, and never did, exist.

If Saddam had them, he would have used them against the invasion(s). If the insurgents had them, they would be using them against the occupying force. It would make absolutely no sense to stockpile them in Syria or someplace while the Infidel was still in Iraq.

My own theory is that Hussein <i>claimed</i> he was acquiring WMD so he could remain the toughest hombre on the block (in the eyes of his neighbors).

If this topic doesn't get back to something travel-related it is surely doomed.

Gardyloo is right.

Would you visit a country that you knew had weapons of mass destruction?

yes, of course it does affect.

One of my coworkers just said he would never step onto France. Indeed, some things Franch did are disgusting. But I will still travel to France this summer.

My sister lives in Toronto, I love Canada, and I don't want the Canadians on this board to take umbrage with what I am going to say...but my understanding is that Canada's armed forces is pretty pitiful, and where would our northern neighbors turn to if they were attacked on their own soil for support??

ira, I <i>live</i> in a country that has weapons of mass destruction.

elle -- so do I :(
JOdy -- Thanks for remembering :d

mgmargate, you are boycotting travel to Canada and Russia, I hope you are also boycotting Canadian and Russian oil. And while you are at it, boycott Saudi oil.

You sound like the American ambassador to Canada, mouthing off with a limited view of history. Do you know how many days passed between the first Canadian death and the first American death in both WW1 and WW2? This does not diminish the sacrifice of those brave men but get off your high horse.

And please, remove spew from your vocabulary because it leaves me reaching for the &quot;bucket.&quot;

Pronounced, I presume, like &quot;bouquet&quot;, Hyacinth...

Are those that are boycotting France and Germany also going to boycott California, Vermont and South Dakota? Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean and Tom Daschle were also opposed to military intervention in Iraq. Where are the boycotts against the people and places that they represent?

As an aside, I will point out that France did provide useful support for our recent ouster of Aristide. So much for critics that claim Bush has destroyed any chance of US-Europe collaborations again.

Like I said previously, history can be used by both sides...I believe that there are photos of Don Rumsfeld when he was special envoy to Iraq (many years ago) with a smile and a friendly handshake with...Saddam. In those days, they were the friend of the west, since they were fighting a common enemy, Iran. So the US supplied them with arms, helicopters, etc...I have heard that these helicopters were the ones used when Saddam gassed the Kurds..Different times, different rules. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. So...once again, it makes a great argument when you can pick out any event in history and say..See, it proves my point...but EVERY story has two sides.

And yes, Canada does not have a large 'offensive' armed force, we decided that we could never spend enough to 'kepp up with the neighbours' so we scaled back to some tactical forces, with more of a focus towards peakeeping, where we think we can be more effective. And in this new world,tanks and aireraft carriers may not be the only or best way to fight the new ennemy.

HyacinthB: As per your request,I will call your post nonsense instead of the other word.Why don't you address my arguments directly instead of going off on a tangent.It's tiresome.

Robespierre: Since you're all knowing and seeing the rest of us can now sleep at ease.The problem is what if you're wrong.

I've found this thread very interesting and the responses, for the most part, thoughful and reasoned... the exceptions have been kind of predictable.

Has Switzerland's official neutrality in WW2 put it on anyone's boycott list?

People certainly have the right to spend their travel dollars where they wish, and even if it makes no difference to an economy, if it makes them feel better, well OK. No matter how petty and misguided, that's a person's right. And I have a feeling that if your choices are governed by something like this, you would not enjoy experiencing the culture of another country anyway. Better to stay at home in your comfort zone.

gieffel: Canada's armed forces are in a pretty sad state, it's true. Despite that we are still contributing to multi-national forces all over the world - Afghanistan comes immediately to mind. As far as needing support from the US if we were to get into trouble on our own soil, that may be. But many Canadians feel that the most likely invasion could come from south of the border!!

HyacinthB: For the record I don't ride a horse,I drive a cadillac.

mg--a pink one? (you are in Bruce's home state, aren't you?)

fueled by saudi oil :)

Taggie: It's your right to call it &quot;petty &amp; misguided&quot;, of course we would think of it as principled.

smueller - &quot;Are those that are boycotting France and Germany also going to boycott California, Vermont and South Dakota? Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean and Tom Daschle were also opposed to military intervention in Iraq. Where are the boycotts against the people and places that they represent?&quot;

The reason I am not going to France and Germany is not simply because of what Chirac and Schroder said or did. It is not because they did not support us on Iraq. It is because the people of the countries they represent are overwhelmingly anti-American and elected their leaders explicitly on that platform.

If Californians felt the same, I would not go there either.

Leelani - a simple &quot;yes&quot;. World views influence my travels.

Sorry mgmargate just being silly

I have really enjoyed this discusion - especially elle, Neil or Michel.

elle: it's more like &quot;pewter&quot;.

indie: No problem.

elle: to answer your other question,YES.

Absolutely not. Even if you disagree with a foreign government you can still love the people/place. Surely your freind is aware that no elected government gets 100% of the vote. I also believe others coming to the US realize that not everyone here voted for the current US president. In fact, it's well known that he got even less votes that his main challenger.

Elle: The first time I saw him was approx.1975 at the Spectrum in Philly.

Bardo: You are correct,but we all know winning the popular vote is not what gets you the prize in our system.

That's where I first saw him, too. But for me it was more like '83 or maybe '84?