Recently we applied our mid-western technique to ordering wine in France. And I am pleased to say it worked just fine. I'd explain but Fodors has been monitoring a bit more closely than usual, and we are not giving away all our secrets. Lets just say the guys at the bowling alley would've scored it a strike. We find the less science the better when dealing with the emotion of wine (Big Al's thought, and kinda eloquent if you ask me). By the way, do they post the number of stars on the doorway? Had me and Al scratching our heads the entire two days.

Unless you're someplace truly fancy or really know your wines... just stick with a demi or carafe or the house white or red. Don't fill your glass to the top (like they do in the States) and it will make a few glasses each for two people. Always pour the other persons first when refilling glasses. Order another demi/carafe if you like when it's gone. On and on like that!<BR><BR>The wine is sooo good (this goes generally for France, Italy, Switzerland among others I'm sure) and not expensive.<BR><BR>Summary, in a cafe or reasonably casual restaurant simply ask for a bottle of water (flat or with gas) and a carafe (of red or white wine) when the waiter first approaches your table.<BR><BR>I just returned from 3 weeks in Switzerland and this is how my host who lives there does it -every time- and that seemed perfectly acceptable. And believe me WE drank ALOT of wine!!

When I was in France (in May), some of the French people that I stayed with told me that instead of asking for "l'addition" French people ask for "la note."

Or le damage!

topping for elaine

This is great info. Just one question. What if you don't drink alcohol of any kind? Are you going to look like a complete dolt?

Sheryl, no problem if you don't order anything alcoholic to drink. I never drink and traveled with my teenage daughter, we raised no disapproving eyelids.

While it's good to know the customs/etiquette of dining in France, it shouldn't go to the extreme. It's not as if the Parisian waiters are going to scrutinize everything you do or don't do. For example, if you don't drink alcohol and don't order it, they're not going to treat you badly. Another person asked a question about crossing your fork and knife to signal you're finished eating. Gee, the waiter will come over and ask you. You don't need to do a fork &amp; knife crossover. Don't make things so hard; it's not as if Paris is on another planet.

I just returned yesterday and can add a little on the topic of &quot;snacks&quot; in a Paris restaurant. These are based on our observations as well as our asking restaurant personnel about French etiquette.<BR><BR>If an establishment has its tables set (linen, plate, glassware), it is likely they would expect patrons to order a full meal. When we just wanted coffee and a snack, we looked for a cafe without table settings.<BR><BR>One night we had left our restaurant without eating dessert and, after walking around awhile, decided to get a coffee and split a dessert. We went into a moules &amp; frites cafe and were NOT warmly treated by the waiter. We had informed the maitre d' of our intent, but that didn't keep the waiter from throwing up his hands! Live and learn, as they say.<BR><BR>It was apparent we had picked the wrong place to order just dessert.<BR><BR>We had no problem asking for a carafe of water, but were often presented with a bottle of Vitelle anyway. <BR><BR>And one last tidbit...if you order a dish which mentions &quot;oeuf&quot;s (eggs), you may want to ask if it is cooked. :) I never did learn the word for raw! <BR><BR>

Did we find the only restaurant where the gratuity wasn't included?<BR><BR>Yes, it was always included in Paris and also in Provence.<BR><BR>We assumed it was included when we had a 'gourmet' meal in Marseilles. The waiter looked quite crestfallen when we stood up after paying the bill. <BR><BR>We left, but couldn't shake the feeling that something was wrong. <BR><BR>We went back and asked if the tip was included. It wasn't. He was overjoyed when we tipped him.<BR><BR>Perhaps it was only this restaurant or perhaps it's all of Marseille.

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Stentor asks<BR>what aperatifs would you all recommend before a meal at a French restaurant?<BR><BR>Pastis is uniquely French. It is a high-powered, yellow, licorice-flavored liqueur.<BR><BR>You will get a tall glass with a little golden liquid and a pitcher of water. Add an equal amount of water and it will turn white. Add more water to taste.<BR><BR>Now you will feel really Francais.<BR><BR>

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to the top for more input - I am enjoying this immensely!

Let's keep this one going. <BR><BR>It's a treat!

How about that comment regarding coffee? I will get funny looks if I want coffee with dessert? Anyone have more insight into this issue?

Expanding on the &quot;snack&quot; idea...is it O.K. to order only an entree but not an appetizer? Would it be more acceptable in a less expensive place (like it is in the USA)?

To Lisa: You won't get funny looks if you order coffee with dessert, only if you order it with a main course. However, I found that often, if you try and order your coffee with your dessert the waiter won't bring it till you've finished eating. Bear in mind that &quot;un caf&eacute;&quot; = an espresso.<BR>To Flash: You can order just a main course if you like, there's no obligation to have an appetizer. <BR>

Doggy bags are out of the question in Europe.

The french consider it barbaric to drink coffee while eating food. LIke someone mentioned above, even if you order coffee with dessert it will come after dessert. In nicer places i've found that you should order an appertif that isn't wine to start, then finish with a digestif. i like doing that myself. Another taboo would be ordering an appetizer as a main or a whole bunch of appetizers as the whole meal. Another thing important for us americans to consider is that french cooks dont like taking special orders. the food is how it is-- no sauce on the side, no sending back if you don't like it etc. i don't mean to stereotype us too much but we are very picky eaters. my advice would be to venture beyond grilled chicken breast and tomato and mozzarella salad! hope i don't sound condescending. ;)

A very nice and talkative waitress in Milan explained to us that Italians don't drink coffee with their meal because it does not help the digestion.

Flash--be warned that &quot;entree&quot; is French for appetizer (no idea how it became &quot;main course&quot; in American).<BR>You can certainly order just a main course in France.

Never, never, never cut up your salad in France. That is the biggest of gaffes. You must fold it up with the knife and fork and eat it that way, no matter how big the pieces are. Also, it is condsidered VERY rude to yawn in public. One does NOT yawn at any time in public. You will also notice that the French find the American habit of smiling all the time to very odd - they think that we all must be the village idiots going around with a smile on our face. The French seldom smile just to be smiling like we do. Smiles are reserved for something really worth smiling about. <BR><BR>

It is one thing to comment on customs, and another to imply that the customs of others are barbaric. Giving oneself airs is the ultimate rudeness.

Dining Trivia<BR><BR>Remember that Europeans eat with the knife in the right hand and the fork in the left.<BR><BR>They do not cut the food, set the knife down and switch the fork to the right hand.<BR><BR>Also, the tines of the fork face down, not up as in the USA.

FYI: I'm American and I eat with my knife in my right hand and my fork in my left as you said Europeans do. My parents were born here as well and this is how they were brought up to eat - it's NOT just a European habit or trait.

Of course it depends on the &quot;level&quot; of the restaurant, but you are very likely to get bad looks if you walk into a &quot;normal&quot; restaurant and ask for a dessert and coffee. There are salons de the and even normal cafes for that (most cafes, at least in Paris, have a decent selection of pastries). Actually the poster who got the funny looks at what seems to me as having been Leon de Bruxelles can consider herself happy: 15 years ago, she would have been thrown out of the restaurant, thus enhancing the French reputation for hospitality ! As for skipping the appetizer, it is also frown upon (wrongly, IMHO, but that's the way it is...): the waiter won't help himself but asking in a slightly annoyed tone: &quot;Alors, un plat direct, c'est ca ?&quot; And he'll make you &quot;pay&quot; for it by making you wait a long time for the entree. Mind you, there is a logic to that: appetizers being normally cold, they can be served quite rapidly while the main course is being prepared, so that you eventually save time.

I am fond of Pineau Brillet, which is cognac and white wine. Do you drink this before or after the meal?

American writes<BR>&gt;...I eat with my knife in my right hand and my fork in my left...it's NOT just a European habit or trait.<BR><BR> That makes two of us.<BR><BR> My remark was based on contemporary etiquette books.<BR><BR> Do you keep the fork tines up or down?<BR><BR>